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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« on: May 05, 2003, 06:31:02 AM »
Happy Cinco de Mayo.

One big clue will give this one away, but how to go about it?

I assume there's some kind of hill down there, based on the
name.  Perhaps grass on it, too.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 11:31:51 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2003, 07:44:39 AM »
I hope you noticed the familiar features down there.

You don't have to be Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart to play
here, but perhaps the expert on the subject does.   8)

What short nickname do Burt Reynolds and Paul Azinger
have in common?

Earl Warren apparently ignored this course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2003, 07:53:22 AM »
I thought I had it, as a Seth Raynor course in Milwaukee, where they are playing the State Am this year, but when I double checked, it is not Blue Mound G &CC. :-/  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2003, 08:14:59 AM »
Some conspiracy-theorists believe the shots at JFK came from here....or at least from its Dallas counterpart.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2003, 08:35:39 AM »
Is the lunch special at this clubhouse a parsnipy stew?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2003, 08:40:54 AM »
Ahhh, some of the old familiar hole designs.  Is that a Biarritz? A Short?  

Maybe a certain former baseball player (and recent author) from the area can offer some help??!!!   :D  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2003, 08:41:36 AM »
Sure, Mike, just use the 'give-away' clue I was saving for later!  ;)

Abraham Zapruder was an amateur filmmaker from these parts.

Is this the NAFFER's course?

Judging by the yardage, this is a Short course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2003, 08:42:55 AM »
Rob,

The Bakker et al clue refers to him.  It's his home course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2003, 08:48:30 AM »
I always think that this type of bunkering looks
really cool from the air.  However, from the ground,
do people prefer this type of bunkering, or ones with more
capes?

I would think that unless this type of bunkering was really
deep (as this architect is known for), it would be easier than
bunkers with lots of capes.

Thoughts?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2003, 10:07:01 AM »
Deion Sanders and Charlie Ward are easier clues than
Reynolds and Azinger, but the answer is the same.  Gabrielle Reece, too.   :o

Dealey Plaza's is the Western version of this?

This architect Banks on his mentors names for work?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2003, 12:51:00 PM »
Back from a meeting....


This is The Knoll East, in Parsippany, NJ, designed by Charles
Banks.  The Knoll is George Bahto's home club, the resident
expert on MacDonald/Raynor/Banks.


other clues include:

"Banks"

"hill...with grass", "Dealey Plaza", "conspiracy-theorists
believe the shots at JFK came from here....or at least from its
Dallas counterpart" all refer to The Grassy Knoll, where the
real assassins popped JFK ("head went back and to the
left").  Zapruder was the bystander on the knoll who filmed
the assassination.

"Earl Warren apparently ignored this course" refers to Chief
Justice Earl Warren, of the Warren Commission, who
concluded that one Magic Bullett made 7 different wounds in
JFK and John Connally (actually Magic Bullett was Sen. Arlen
Specter's conclusion).

familiar holes....Biarritz...Short, Redan.

Burt Reynold, Paul Azinger, Deion Sanders, Charlie Ward,
and Gabrielle Reece are all Florida State alumni = "'Noles"

expert on Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart? =they are/were
evangelists, and George Bahto wrote the recent book The
Evangelist of Golf

"parsnipy" = close to town name

The NAFFER is GCAer "Noel" Freeman.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2003, 12:56:09 PM »
Is the redan the one in the top right that is hard to
see?  

The Biarritz seems to not really be mowed correctly.  
Shouldn't the back part of the green be mowed as
a square, instead of a circle?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2003, 01:11:49 PM »
i don't know that i've ever seen a biarritz with a top shot bunker.

interesting in that it looks as if there are a couple of redan-esque  greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2003, 01:12:33 PM »
I assume that's the Short, at lower left?

Is anyone still building those perfectly round little greens completely ringed with symmetrical bunkers?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2003, 01:47:46 PM »
I heard from said expert on this course a little while ago and
he was there today working on some of the bunkers.  No
more work until the fall, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2003, 03:31:04 PM »
Guys: The course is not the Knoll East (which is a real bow-bow). That was built as an adjunct to what we call "The Upper Knoll" or "The Big Knoll" as a way to help fund the operation back in the '40's or so.

The proper name of the aerial is The Knoll West.

We are (very slowly - duh) expanding the greens to their original parameters. Some times it's easier to get things done on other projects - but at least the bunkers are getting redone (again slowly).

SPDB: The top is correct and is representative of the Bay of Biscay water hazard on the original Biarritz, France hole. Most clubs have taken them out.

Most of the greens pads were square and will be again.

Yes there are a few Redan shaped greens: Road hole #1, Redan #3, #14 is a tough hole and has a sort of reversed Road hole feel to it, and the 18th is a very strong 2-shot Redan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2003, 05:30:20 PM »
For anyone interested a brief  history of The Knoll:

Built near the end of the Roaring Twenties by 30 millionaires who were influential and/or officers of
nearby private clubs; Essex County Country Club - Montclair Golf Club - Baltusrol, including Thomas Watson founder of IBM and J. R Monroe (Monroe Business Machine fame). The Knoll was to be a private playground for a select few rich of northern New Jersey.

Charlie Banks built the course and clubhouse architect, the great Clifford Wendehack (Winged Foot Cl/Hs is one of his designs) hired for the clubhouse ( .... ahem, 12 studio apartments on the second floor -
naughty, naughty).

By the time everything was completed they had spent 2 mil - imagine, in the 20's

Also, by the time the course opened the Great Depression had rendered half the millionaire’s pauper.

The “millionaires” held onto the club (barely) for a bit but in 1935 the banks foreclosed on the property in and after a few false attempts by some individual members to save the club, the club was finally sold in 1943 to two brothers, the Aiello’s, who owned a large restaurant supply company (the millionaires were in debt to them for about 30 grand it was rumored).
      
This was the heyday of the Knoll, 1943 thru 1972.

During this period the (minorities of the day), the Jewish, Italians in particular were not granted memberships at many clubs. The Jewish built a number of courses here in North Jersey and the Knoll, because of the Aiello brothers as owners, was often referred to as the “Italian” club.

Well for a lot of years, it was celebrities galore: the musicians who were playing in NY & NJ, Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey very prominent; the ballplayers from NY teams - DiMaggio very often as well as the Dodger and Giant players (Babe Herman, Pee Wee Reese, Rube Walker); Jackie Gleason, Perry Como, upper echelon Mafia were members but kept a very low profile, and it was a hangout for Gene Sarazen
and Julie Boros, Walter Hagen and Lawson Little were frequent players.

Joe created quite a stir and a traffic jam once when many heard he was bringing his blonde bride along!

Anyhow when the senior owner died the club was sold to a local college in 1972 and it went public (then I could afford to play it - yipppee!!   - it’s 5 minutes from my house).

They really wrecked the place - just let it go. They wanted to build a campus but lost out to the township who eventually bought it a year or so later. It continued to suffer for almost 15 years when they stopped pirating the finances (corrupt politico ended in jail). They never put any money into the course.

Finally we are in stable conditions and have gotten the place back to the condition it once was - still lots of fine tuning to do but with municipal ownership it often goes slow.

The main thing is that over the years little was done to alter the course. It was not maintained properly for years.  This is why it remains so original. Aside from the period of “Italian” ownership, who added a few back tees, only seven inconsequential bunkers were covered over and the greens are as built with very little top dressing added for many years. I should be able to get the “lost” bunkers back in.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2003, 07:56:08 PM »
George,

Thanks for the great info and sorry about the name error.  Golfcourse.com fails me again.   :-[ :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2003, 08:24:57 PM »
You can even make out the double plateau contours on the top right green; it's pretty wild!  I think you can also make out some of the green contours on the long 5th (bottom), that's a pretty wild green too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2003, 06:09:53 AM »
George,
I've always been confused, so hopefully you can clear this up.
Did the Chasm hole at Biarritz have a swale in the green?

I had always thought that the huge swale in CBM/SR greens was meant to evoke or approximate the chasm. If so, why does the top shot bunker need to further recreate the chasm?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

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Re: Aerial of the Day #330 - 5 May 2003
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2003, 07:59:52 AM »
SPDB: Your questions were:

"I've always been confused, so hopefully you can clear this up.
Did the Chasm hole at Biarritz have a swale in the green?"

......I've been trying to find that out to no avail for years - have never come up with a picture or a description of the original green. I seriously doubt it. I think it was just a long green or a green with a long approach.

you also asked: "I had always thought that the huge swale in CBM/SR greens was meant to evoke or approximate the chasm. If so, why does the top shot bunker need to further recreate the chasm?"

...... no the swale is a representation of the approach to the 18th green at St Andres, the Valley of Sin!!! So it appears CB combined that Valley of Sin feature with a green with a long approach (front section of many greens they built) to use as the green for HIS Biarritz hole.

The chasm is represented by the top-shot bunker hazard - gone on nearly all holes.

The carry over the Chasm was about 170 yards from the original tee-box in France .... (France.. BBBOOOOOOO!!)

Now let me see if I can set the record straight on one part of the Biarritz story.

As far as I can tell CB Macdonald never intended there to be a double green. His original description of the hole that was one of the select holes he wanted to use on his "Ideal Golf Course" was this (see page 184 Scotland's Gift):  

#15.  210 yards   Suggested by the 12th Biarritz (which  with the 9s reversed, the original 3rd hole), making sharp hog in middle of the course (meaning the front section approach to the green).    ... what he is referring to here, the hog-back, is gone from virtually all Biarritz holes - a set of two small deflection mounds, set on an angle, built on the (before the swale) - these were meant to veer bounding balls off into the side bunkers.  The only mounds I have seen that are still there are the ones on my course. I have a green blueprint of a Biarritz green for the Oneck course at Westhampton CC (NLE) that has these mounds drawn in by Charlie Banks ..... it will be in the Raynor Banks book.

This is a little hard to explain in print - sorry if it confuses.

Point is, this so called double green just evloved and was not really the intent of Macdonald's original Biarritz hole design. The front section was where most, if not all, balls landed in the 19-teens and 19-twenties and he was compounding the golfers problems by putting in these angled spines or mounds so balls not landing exactly on the center line of play were deflected off line.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

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