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ward peyronnin

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Abandoned Golf Designs
« on: July 11, 2012, 10:09:58 AM »
We are all familiar with Lost Links ala Daniel Wexler's book and these abandoned fields of play, both long past and present, have been treated in length on this site.

With the news that Palmetto Bluff developers now plan to put a 40 acre historic rice field in the middle of the proposed second May River Club Course for which Coore and Crenshaw had been retained I wondered if C&C had even been informed that their project is apparently dead for sure now?

 But it also began me wondering if such an examination on the potential greatness of  unexecuted but planned golf course design has been satisfactorily undertaken or is feasable? Is it even worth contemplating the effort?
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"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tom_Doak

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 10:19:39 AM »
Ward:

I did a thread on some of my own failed projects a few months ago.  There are a couple of them that could still possibly happen, someday, but I'm not holding my breath about them.

I doubt that Bill and Ben were "officially" informed about the status of May River, but I'm sure they understood it was dead -- didn't the people that hired them file for bankruptcy?

You would not believe how many of our clients in 2007-08 never even called us after that to officially inform us that their projects were done.  There were a couple who just disappeared ... I never heard from them at all after things went south.  I am sure it was the same for many designers.
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ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 10:33:52 AM »
Tom

I think your reply was where I was going. The recent carnage most tragically took out some fine existing tracks but also tragically aborted some that could have been very good.

The original owner was bought out but some management still remains; still remembers what was promised to stakeholders but choosed to just impose the new Agrarian pastoral unilaterally. The new owners just added $100 million id additional funding to the buyout kitty bit instead of devoting it to golf they chose Carolina Golden Rice.  http://www.islandpacket.com/2012/07/04/2124776/palmetto-bluff-to-re-create-history.html#storylink=omni_popular

What of those designs to which you refer did you have high hopes for and what about them created that anticipation?
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"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 10:37:21 AM »
Ward,

While the pace has accelerated, the problem of proposed courses that never got built is not a new one.  I suspect every architect on here and elsewhere could name at least two proposed but never built courses for every course they actually did build.  And many of those did have at least some planning done on them.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 10:45:58 AM »
So maybe it is time to move on eh Jeff? But I would be interested in hearing of abandoned designs that showed great promise. Like Cabot Links you never know maybe the xth time is the charm

But I am disappointed that what could have been maybe the best 36 hole complex on the lower eastern seaboard , as the existing May River Course is a terrific effort by Nicklaus design, is poof  :o gone.

But I do enjoy playing your Sanctuary Course ( now running a special of twenty rounds for $169 w/o cart)
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"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 11:23:04 AM »
TD,

Clients who "just dissapeared" could be one hell of an interesting thread, couldn't it?

Lester
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 11:25:25 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 11, 2012, 10:19:39 AM
Ward:

I did a thread on some of my own failed projects a few months ago. 

Wasn't Wicked Pony about 80-90% finished when it went under?

Did Harmony ever start any work, such as clearing?


On Friday, I drove by a bankrupt, partially-built Nicklaus-group design called Legacy in Eagle, ID.  Four holes were built and they seem to be maintaining them to playable levels....there were pins in the greens...fairways and greens were mowed.  What looked to be a par 5 had an island green a la Cherry Hills.
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Cliff Walston

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 11:57:38 AM »
Ward,

I am with you.  Palmetto Bluff is a special place.  I am biased since I got married there a couple of years ago and return at least once a year with my wife.  But I had held out hope that someday the Crenshaw/Coore course would be built, especially given the "boom" in new housing construction that seems to be occurring at Palmetto Bluff.  Oh well.  There is always Chechessee I suppose.

Cliff
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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 12:16:12 PM »
Awful lot of this in our area (Cabo)

Routed but never built
1. Punto Lobos - 36 holes: Arthur Hills
2. Quivira - 36 holes: Jack Nicklaus (18 maybe ready by winter 2013?)
3. San Cristobal - 18 holes: David Kidd
4. Rancho Cabo San Lucas: 36 holes (18 routed?): Greg Norman
5. Cortez Ocean Club - 18 holes: Coore & Crenshaw
6. Querencia - 18 hole walking course: Gil Hanse
7. Bahia de los Sueños - Second 18: Gil Hanse (rather prelim routing I believe)
8. Chileno Bay - Second 18: Tom Fazio (see below)
9. Cabo del Sol - Third 18: Tom Doak (Routing presented around 2000/01... master plan reworked beginning 2003 - third course still pending with new routing from Jim Lipe)

Built/Partially built but not in operation/partially operating
1. Chileno Bay - 18 holes: Fazio (90% finished in 2009... still not open - probably open this winter)
2. Puerto Los Cabos - 36 holes: 9 Nicklaus/9 Norman operating as 18 hole course (each probably finish their own courses by fall 2013)
3. Paraiso del Mar - 18 holes: Arthur Hills (opened in 2008/09... minimal operation run largely by small HOA as of today)
4. Bahia de los Sueños - 18 holes: Tom Doak (quasi opened 2008/09... very spartan operation, if any as of today... sale pf project still pending)

 
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 12:33:36 PM »
The second course at Quintero in Arizona, a Norman design, was never built and probably never will be built.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 01:05:19 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 12:38:01 PM »
If you are talking about those that actually got under construction, I guess the 2:1 ratio would be a lot lower.

Of my own designs, Centennial in Ackworth, GA is now under housing, and I have a 12 hole course in Lone Oak, TX that never got fully built, and closed last October, although the super is still making minimal maintenance happen as they hope to sell.  I also had two par 3 courses from early in my career go under.  

In Las Vegas, when Stallion Mountain got reduced from 54 to 18 holes, they kept most of my course, combining 15 of my holes with three others to complete the course.  When Wild Wing in Myrtle Beach went from 72 to 27 holes, the only 18 hole course they kept was mine (co-design with Larry Nelson)  So, I dodged a bullet with those two, and of course, I never let Cary Bickler or Rees Jones (other architects whose courses did close in those cases) forget it!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean Leary

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 12:44:42 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on July 11, 2012, 10:37:21 AM
Ward,

While the pace has accelerated, the problem of proposed courses that never got built is not a new one.  I suspect every architect on here and elsewhere could name at least two proposed but never built courses for every course they actually did build.  And many of those did have at least some planning done on them.

Jeff,

I'd love to hear more about the 3rd nine that you proposed at Prairie Dunes...
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 01:03:41 PM »
Sean,

I moved recently and was looking for that as I pared down old plans, but could not find it, so maybe it will be one of those lost designs.  The only thing I recall is that it started by the big tennis facility and at the time, the club thought I should combine the new nine with 8 and 9 of the existing course, which I refused to do.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Howard Riefs

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 01:06:07 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 11, 2012, 10:19:39 AM

I did a thread on some of my own failed projects a few months ago.  There are a couple of them that could still possibly happen, someday, but I'm not holding my breath about them.


Is this the thread?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47017.0.html
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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 01:38:07 PM »
Thanks, Howard.  That answers my questions above.

Quote from: Scott_Burroughs on July 11, 2012, 11:25:25 AM
On Friday, I drove by a bankrupt, partially-built Nicklaus-group design called Legacy in Eagle, ID.  Four holes were built and they seem to be maintaining them to playable levels....there were pins in the greens...fairways and greens were mowed.  What looked to be a par 5 had an island green a la Cherry Hills.

Upon further review, it's only 3 holes, and that's all that was supposed to be built (I had been told by locals it was 'only 4 were built,' as if a full 18 were planned).

"Legacy is the nation's first Lifesport community and home [to 5] Signature Academies. In addition to world-class amenities such as a 3 hole Nicklaus-designed practice course, driving range, indoor and outdoor tennis courts, soccer fields, swimming pools and fitness center, Legacy is also home to the Jack Nicklaus Golf Academy, Jim Courier Tennis Academy, Mark Spitz Swim Academy, and the Mia Hamm-Julie Foudy-Brandi Chastain Soccer Academy. Legacy will include over 1300 homes spread across 600 acres in the foothills of Boise."
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 03:29:13 PM »
Quote from: Scott_Burroughs on July 11, 2012, 01:38:07 PM
"Legacy is the nation's first Lifesport community and home [to 5] Signature Academies. In addition to world-class amenities such as a 3 hole Nicklaus-designed practice course, driving range, indoor and outdoor tennis courts, soccer fields, swimming pools and fitness center, Legacy is also home to the Jack Nicklaus Golf Academy, Jim Courier Tennis Academy, Mark Spitz Swim Academy, and the Mia Hamm-Julie Foudy-Brandi Chastain Soccer Academy. Legacy will include over 1300 homes spread across 600 acres in the foothills of Boise."

How did they leave out the Steve Davis Snooker Academy?  Or the Nancy Kerrigan-Tonya Harding Skating Academy?
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Matthew Petersen

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 03:42:02 PM »
Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on July 11, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
The second course at Quintero in Arizona, a Norman design, was never built and probably never will be built.

I get the feeling they'll be lucky to even keep the "Founders" (Ress Jones) course alive.

I toured new homes at Verrado in the west Phx suburbs when they had their grand opening back in 04. There was talk of 4 courses, with perhaps as many as 7 at some point. To date there is only one built, though there is also a strange built but now abandoned hole by the driving range. Maybe meant as a practice hole? I've never been clear. Unknown if any routings were done for those mythical others courses.
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 03:45:24 PM »
A few years ago I was able to go through the RTJ Sr. archives when they were left for dead in a warehouse in Florida.  He had hundreds of plans that never were built.

In California, Greg Norman built a full 18 hole course in Bakersfield call MacCallister Ranch.  It never opened and now is just sitting there in ruins.  The real estate company filed for Chapter 11.

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RJ_Daley

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 03:57:46 PM »
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.298041,-101.174233&spn=0.009624,0.023046&t=h&z=16

This is what is left of sand blowing in the wind at the Prairie Sands Club site in the Sand Hills, north of Sutherland NE.
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 04:08:45 PM »
@Matt

That hole next to the driving range at Raven at Verrado is the 18th hole of the proposed private/resort course. I don't remember if was going to be a Rees design but the planned resort at Verrado is a long way off, if ever.

Also, at Vistancia, I believe at least two more courses were originally planned.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Andrew Brown

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 05:09:19 PM »
Quote from: Joel_Stewart on July 11, 2012, 03:45:24 PM


In California, Greg Norman built a full 18 hole course in Bakersfield call MacCallister Ranch.  It never opened and now is just sitting there in ruins.  The real estate company filed for Chapter 11.



Photographic proof that Greg's cart paths are on the left-hand side?
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Matthew Petersen

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 05:14:35 PM »
Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on July 11, 2012, 04:08:45 PM
@Matt

That hole next to the driving range at Raven at Verrado is the 18th hole of the proposed private/resort course. I don't remember if was going to be a Rees design but the planned resort at Verrado is a long way off, if ever.

Also, at Vistancia, I believe at least two more courses were originally planned.

I had heard the same thing about Vistancia, but at least they got a second course open.

Interesting that they built the one hole out at Verrado, and have essentially abandoned it.
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 08:14:06 PM »
This may be the biggest profile course that is abandoned.  Surprised nobody has mentioned it?
 It won't take long for the desert to reclaim it.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 09:06:36 PM by Joel_Stewart »
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Mike Benham

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 08:33:06 PM »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Abandoned Golf Designs
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2012, 11:10:00 AM »
Talked about very recently, in light of the announced new C&C-designed Pinehurst #9, the original Rees-designed #9 (cleared and range built), next to the now-closed Pit GL (where part of the new #9 will be built):

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pinehurst,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.1526,-79.455507&spn=0.010316,0.017402&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.817312,71.279297&oq=pine&t=h&hnear=Pinehurst,+Moore,+North+Carolina&z=16
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