Trump International Golf Links

[Jerry Kluger]

I was referring to the thread dealing with the proposed C & C course which Keiser wants to build and there are serious eco questions being raised.  Is there really any difference between what they want to do versus what Trump did?  Are we really talking about damage to the eco system or personalities?  Am I missing something?

[Bernie Bell]

Jerry, there is some discussion of that issue in this thread.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65755.msg1569669.html#msg1569669

[Ian Mackenzie]

I LOVE the idea of another course and a housing development at Trump Flabberdeen.


It would be great place for the MAGA golfing crew and sympathetic Trumpateers to live and interact with other acolytes.
Build a "big beautiful" wall around the entire place, too. McDonalds, KFC and a "Rub n Tug" all on the grounds. Keep them all in one place...;-)


Then we wait as the myriad investigations slowly bleed him out. No. not impeachment, that's too easy. I mean the REAL investigations going on silently over at the Southern District of NY.


Trump Org goes into liquidation in about 2023 and the development tanks just as the new course is about to open.
We get to enlist our favorite GCAs to "fix" the two courses and the houses go up for sale at a 60% discount to par.


Then we tear down the wall, offer memberships for $1,500/yr and attract a much broader segment of golf tourist and enthusiast.


It would be  a liberation and new owners would be welcomed like MacArthur at Corregador. Down comes the "T" everywhere and the gold plating is scrapped.


An unemployed Donald would look up at the new owners bewildered..."Are you an assassin?...or just a messenger boy?"


 

[Marty Bonnar]

I’m going to assume a ‘rub and tug’ is a fast-food pulled pork place.
F.

[Steve Salmen]

I thought the golf course was very good.  The course is particularly difficult because several tees are elevated and the wind does bad things to balls that stay in the air too long.  The spectacular dunes are penal because they just can't be mowed, similar to RCD, I thought.  That said, there is room to tee off and run shots to the greens, which are very interesting. 


Challenge:  Does anybody know who recommended Trump hire Hawtree?

[Niall C]

Steve


At the time Hawtree was the R&A's architect of choice and Trump was probably aware of that. I very much doubt there was any formal recommendation or even suggestion by the R&A that he use Hawtree but you can imagine what his thinking was. Before Hawtree got involved Fazio was slated to design the course and even appeared on local TV to say how great the site was that all was required was to install the irrigation and cart paths.


Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-49945052



Trump's Aberdeenshire golf resort posts £1m annual losses

Donald Trump's Aberdeenshire golf resort has made losses for the seventh consecutive year, according to the latest published accounts.


Documents lodged with Companies House show the Trump International Golf Club made an annual loss of £1.07m in 2018.

It is a slight improvement on the previous year when losses stood at £1.25m.


The golf resort at the Menie Estate opened in 2012, but since then it has continued to make a loss.

The accounts, which were first reported by The Scotsman, also give details of a £40m interest-free loan from Mr Trump.


And they reveal that 77 people were employed by the business - down from 84 in 2017.

Mr Trump promised to spend £1bn and create 6,000 jobs developing the golf course.


Last week, the Trump Organisation was given approval to build hundreds of new homes at the Menie Estate.

However, the company said there was now no market to support its original plans for a five-star hotel.

A spokeswoman said a sustainable community was needed to support a seasonal transient business.


Plans for a second golf course the Aberdeenshire resort were approved by councillors last month.

The 18-hole MacLeod course is to be built to the south and west of the original course, which opened at Menie in 2012.


The new course is named after Mr Trump's mother, Mary Anne MacLeod, who was born and brought up on the Hebridean island of Lewis but emigrated to New York.

[Niall C]

Perhaps the experienced golf business guys can help me out with the thinking behind the second course.


The first course is making a loss and the second course, which will always be the second course you have to think, is likely to cost as much to build as the first, then how are they going to improve the finances that much if at all especially if the greenfee is less than course number 1 ? I appreciate that they won't be doubling up on the clubhouse staff but they will need another set of greenkeepers. How does it work ?


As an aside, 77 staff ? That can't be 77 full time staff surely ?


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall. Hard to really know without knowing all the facts but I tend to think that multiples of 18 holes is a good route for the HUGE stay and play market that exists. Adding a second cheaper course brings the overall package price and lets say a 1 night stay with 2 rounds one on each course, breakfast, evening meal at say £350 I reckon it would get a fair few takers. It is a similar model at Turnberry but they also fly a kind of £180 route using the second course both times there. People like the idea to get somewhere and stay there for the duration, the 1 night 2 round or 2 night 3 round is a big winner at the moment, ideally three golf courses, but those second and third offerings don't need high staffing, six more staff per course should easily be enough. More sense would be to acquire a third course reasonably close and add that to the package.


Accounts can be very misleading.


Housing will claw quite a bit back. If you have hotel rooms at £120 per night there is a lot of profit, each room could generate £25,000 profit at 60% capacity. A successful 40 room hotel can be worth £10,000,000 in today's climate and yet it is amazing just how cheap you can build or pick up at a fraction of those prices. I am working on a few similar things at the moment.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I’m going to assume a ‘rub and tug’ is a fast-food pulled pork place.
F.

Apparently it does indeed involve pulled pork...


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rub_and_tug

[Michael Whitaker]

In the real estate business depreciation is a major factor in the financial accounting... especially as it relates to the taxable status of a concern. I wonder how the Trump courses are doing on a cash flow basis. And, I wonder how much of the reported £1M “loss” is actually due to asset depreciation.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here is a link to the financial report - click on the first PDF in the list.  Others more into the business of operating golf courses can no doubt interpret it better than I can




https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC292100/filing-history




Mike,


The depreciation is about £200K of the £1M loss.  They don't appear to be depreciating the land or the course.


Niall,


Of the 77 staff, 41 are in food, beverage and accommodation.  There's 10 in golf operations, 15 in grounds and 11 in administration.  Looks a little top heavy in administration.




Turnover is about £2.8M with about 2/3 in green fees and 1/3 in merchandise sales.  Sounds like a fairly modest operation - fewer than 15K rounds a year? ?


They claim tangible assets of £32M but loans owing of £43M.




Adrian,


There is no hotel in the future plans recently approved, so not sure how they would package to tourists as you've suggested.  Also not sure how the housing helps unless they build some mandatory initiation and annual dues into the selling of the houses.  Also not sure how the housing helps with the seasonal aspect of the current course operation.  If the houses are bought by out-of-country buyers I doubt they'd want to be there in the Scottish winter when the course is closed.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I can't open the link to the accounts but what figure is on the balance sheet for "goodwill"? Surely it must be a heavily negative number!


There can be no more toxic brand in the world than "Trump". 


Maybe the next owner (or the one after that) will make a successful business out of this place...

[David_Tepper]

"Turnover is about £2.8M with about 2/3 in green fees and 1/3 in merchandise sales.  Sounds like a fairly modest operation - fewer than 15K rounds a year??"

Bryan -

Fewer than 15k rounds a year does not surprise me at all. Castle Stuart has been open for 10 years now. It has been very well received by most golf course rankings and has had worldwide publicity by hosting multiple televised Scottish Opens. Yet CS is not doing much more than 10k rounds a year.

DT

[Ryan Coles]

How many does Kingsbarns do?

[Bryan Izatt]

Duncan,


I've fixed the link in the post above. 


I don't recall seeing "goodwill" anywhere in the report.


David,


The 15K rounds was an optimistic guess based on the "provision of services" number and an average green fee.  If they held firm on their published green fees it could well be half that number or less.

[Niall C]

Adrian


I take your point about stay and play but not sure they will get that much benefit since all they have at the moment is a small boutique hotel with 16 beds from memory. Apparently they have shelved plans for the 500 bed hotel due to the nose dive in the oil economy.


Bryan


Thanks for the link. I'd imagine a lot of the admin staff will be back in the US and is probably just another way of repatriating some of the money ?


Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

Global Warming?




https://twitter.com/TrumpScotland/status/1181595114323488769


Golf will be available for longer this year with the course remaining open until close of Dec 23, 2019, weather permitting. Tee times will be available Wed to Sun, 9am-1pm from Nov 1st, when our winter operating hours begin.

[Niall C]

1pm tee off in December ? Good luck getting round in daylight.


Niall

[Jeff Schley]

Thanks Brian it is a lovely picture. Haven't played up in Aberdeen as of yet, but hope to plan one next summer. Other than the name of the course I can't think of a reason why any of us golfers wouldn't like a great links course to thrive.  I mean would some of you wish it wasn't there at all?  I hope it builds the second course and becomes even more of a destination.

[Sean_A]

Ira

I certainly wish the course was never built. However, now the damage is done, so it would be a double gut kick if the course failed.

Happy Hockey

[Michael Dugger]

I'm skeptical about the financials... 

[Jeff Schley]

Ira

I certainly wish the course was never built. However, now the damage is done, so it would be a double gut kick if the course failed.

Happy Hockey

Sean it was me, not Ira, although Ira is a Bears fan as well.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/decision-on-protected-status-of-dunes-at-trumps-north-east-golf-course-put-off-until-next-year/


Decision on protected status of dunes at Trump’s north-east golf course put off until next year
by Lee McCann
21/10/2019


A decision on whether the dunes at Donald Trump’s golf course in the north-east lose their protected status will not be made until next year.


Claims were made earlier this year in a report by Scottish National Heritage (SNH) that a third of the special habitats had been damaged.


The site is considered a nationally important protected wildlife site.


A consultation was launched earlier this year by SNH to consider the future of the Foveran Links Site to determine whether it should lose its Special Site of Scientific Interest (SSSI).


It has received seven responses and will now move to the next stage.


SNH previously said it was taking the “unusual” move because there was “no longer a reason to protect the dunes at Menie”.


In the document it said Menie Links Golf Course had “adversely affected” the sand dune habitat with 11% of the total SSSI lost and 15% of the sand dune habitat gone.


It added that 34% of semi- natural habitats in the Menie section of the SSSI had been “destroyed or severely modified”.


However, the Trump Organisation had branded the consultation a “stitch up”.


A spokeswoman for SNH said: “To de-notify a protected area, there are two stages.


“The first stage is for SNH to propose that the land is denotified, and to start a consultation process by inviting comments and representations from the interested parties (the land managers, local authority, community councils) and anyone else who wants to say something. These must then be considered by SNH.


“The second stage includes our decision and notifying the relevant people. We have up to 18 months from the date that we started the consultation to make a decision, which allows us time to seek further advice or carry out more investigation work in response to any representations we have received.”


The remaining area of SSSI at Foveran Links could be merged with the nearby Sands of Forvie and Ythan Estuary.


Sarah Malone, executive vice-president of Trump International, said: “We intend to challenge SNH’s approach and have requested that the de-notification process in this case is scrutinised by SNH’s Protected Areas Committee and Scientific Advisory Committee to provide some scientific rigour, independence and impartiality which has been fundamentally lacking during this shambles of a review process.


“It is a matter of fact that the Foveran Links SSSI was in poor condition when we purchased the land.


“The site had been allowed to significantly degrade over many years without any oversight or intervention from SNH.


“To be clear, they have never undertaken any work on the site, before or after we acquired it.


“Very few, if any, landowners invest in, and understand, the ecological and environmental properties of an SSSI like we do.”

[John Crowley]

I'm skeptical about the financials...

Skeptical of financials put out by a trump 🤥 org? - usual smoke and mirrors?