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Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #925 on: July 03, 2019, 01:37:44 PM »
Are there any hard data from objective sources regarding the local economic effects of the development, seven years on?

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #926 on: July 03, 2019, 09:39:12 PM »
Jon,  we are not far apart in our opinion of the course.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #927 on: July 04, 2019, 01:06:04 PM »
Are there any hard data from objective sources regarding the local economic effects of the development, seven years on?


I doubt any have ever been taken but if you are looking for hard data how about the following - the second course has never been built; the hotel has never been built; and the housing development has never been built. Neither have the thousands of jobs that were promised, been created.


Has the economy benefited from the development ? To the extent that there are a few dozen (?) people employed there and it clearly attracts visitors then the economic effect is positive in that respect. However in the context of its location in a major city and the claims made for the prospective benefits of the development, and the damage done to the immediate area, then it has not been a great success and many think, me included, that the price paid in terms of the environment has not been worth it.


Niall

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #928 on: July 04, 2019, 04:13:50 PM »
Has the economy benefited from the development ? To the extent that there are a few dozen (?) people employed there and it clearly attracts visitors then the economic effect is positive in that respect. However in the context of its location in a major city and the claims made for the prospective benefits of the development, and the damage done to the immediate area, then it has not been a great success and many think, me included, that the price paid in terms of the environment has not been worth it.
Niall


Can you enumerate said "damage"?


What price was paid "in terms of the environment"?  And whose values get to be considered in making this evaluation?


To be fair, I don't think that the development can be declared anything close to a success having fallen well short of what was touted.  There is probably plenty of blame to be spread around, but if we applied the same audit standards to public sector spending- projected costs and benefits compared to actual results- we would have much more to whine about without consideration to whose money was being spent.


I would like to revisit this subject 10 years from now.  My bet is that the existing course will not be returning to nature, but a good chunk of the projected development won't have materialized.     

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #929 on: July 04, 2019, 07:08:07 PM »
Sweet Lou

This is a political thread for the most part because Trump resorted to heavy handed politcs to get the course built.  The good people of Scotland should have listened to real economist forecasts about the economic value of the Trump project (even if Trump had delivered a tenth of what was promised).  Instead, Trump's shills shouted the loudest and duped the people and their politicians.  Its a shame this situation wasn't left to the local planning authority.  The entire reason for the government stepping in was the "economic argument" which never came close to materializing.

There is little point in retaining a site as special when the main reason for protection was shifting dunes; of which a significant percentage are now stabilized.  But hey, we have another great golf course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #930 on: July 05, 2019, 02:55:16 AM »
Has the economy benefited from the development ? To the extent that there are a few dozen (?) people employed there and it clearly attracts visitors then the economic effect is positive in that respect. However in the context of its location in a major city and the claims made for the prospective benefits of the development, and the damage done to the immediate area, then it has not been a great success and many think, me included, that the price paid in terms of the environment has not been worth it.


He can just blame the "Oil Downturn", as every other failed business in the area does.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #931 on: July 06, 2019, 11:02:37 AM »
Has the economy benefited from the development ? To the extent that there are a few dozen (?) people employed there and it clearly attracts visitors then the economic effect is positive in that respect. However in the context of its location in a major city and the claims made for the prospective benefits of the development, and the damage done to the immediate area, then it has not been a great success and many think, me included, that the price paid in terms of the environment has not been worth it.
Niall


Can you enumerate said "damage"? If you are looking for me to put a cost to that damage then I wouldn't know where to start, that's not my area of expertise but clearly it has been severely damaged to the extent that it's no clearly longer what it was. I appreciate that you don't see the change as damage but in a world where humans are putting greater emphasis on protecting the environment most people would not agree, and that is not being political.


What price was paid "in terms of the environment"?  And whose values get to be considered in making this evaluation? See above


To be fair, I don't think that the development can be declared anything close to a success having fallen well short of what was touted.  There is probably plenty of blame to be spread around, but if we applied the same audit standards to public sector spending- projected costs and benefits compared to actual results- we would have much more to whine about without consideration to whose money was being spent. If you are judging the success of the development on what was built against what was planned and the promises made then perhaps not but he still has his consents for the housing and the hotel. He may yet develop them when things are more advantageous. For instance I vaguely recall he was looking to change the conditions on the housing consent so that they wouldn't just be holiday homes. If he got that then they become much more marketable and therefore more valuable.

As for your whinge about public spending, not sure what that has got to do with a private developer getting consent to bespoil an ecologically valuable landscape based on broken promises.



I would like to revisit this subject 10 years from now.  My bet is that the existing course will not be returning to nature, but a good chunk of the projected development won't have materialized.   Even if Trump goes bust, I'm pretty sure someone would buy the course and keep it going so I think your bet in that respect would be a safe one. As for the rest of the development, I'm sure it will happen over time.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #932 on: July 06, 2019, 05:20:25 PM »
NC- You guys in the UK have such on advantage with the language, especially with the oratory, but also with such unusual words as "whinge" which sound so cool and witty until the lesser folk are left to consult the dictionary and learn that they're packed with invective ("whinge"- complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way).

You asserted in your original comment "damage done to the immediate area" and opined "that the price paid in terms of the environment has not been worth it".  I simply asked what the damage is so that the subjective evaluation of whether the project was/is/will be a success can be completed without prejudice.

You are right in part that protecting the environment should not be political.  Unfortunately, it has become that way.  I personally do not understand in human terms the "damage" done to what one report says is to about 11% of that SSSI by arresting its movement in that limited area (God only knows how much effort and resources are expended throughout the world to secure landscapes prone to erosion against the effects of water and wind).

You are right again that my bias is in favor of the folks who benefit from such a development, a good number which probably don't think much about the game we love and even less about the wave effect of sand which might just as easily be studied in many places throughout the world without affecting the ability of some people to put food on the table.  And from I have seen in my limited travels in the UK, Balmedie and Coul Links included, there are plenty of places where the extremely very few can go to commune with nature.

As to my "whinge", I am just suggesting that we might be better off getting our dander up when our taxpayer money is regularly wasted (I can write several paragraphs contrasting public sector promises against actual results which each would make the Trump endeavor a rounding error).  Take Trump out of the equation and perhaps the din would not be nearly as loud.  In the worst case, the project goes under and it is either recapitalized or the land is returned to nature.  If the latter, I am sure that the Scottish courts can adjudicate competing claims of damage and if Trump does indeed go broke as many of his haters wish, I suspect that the title of the land carries whatever environmental clouds arise and its value would probably cover the desired remediation.

The bottom line is that a private individual or group losing money is not a big concern to me.  A public entity spending some of my money wastefully certainly should earn my attention and ire.  And that is the end of my whinge (as I recall, David Moriarty, my one-time antagonist who I wish would return to the site, liked to use the word "screed" in similar spirit).
   

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #934 on: September 27, 2019, 02:50:18 AM »
And the Second Course got approval 2 days before.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #935 on: September 27, 2019, 05:28:34 AM »
And the Second Course got approval 2 days before.


That’s interesting. Any word on whether he’s actually going to build it straight away?


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #936 on: September 27, 2019, 08:30:16 AM »
sad
two weeks ago drove right by it
zero interest in seeing
sad that the worst characters(regardless of your politics-I had this view LONG before he sought office) get hold of such a pristine piece of land and export all the disgusting trappings we've managed to have so many associate golf with here in the States
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #937 on: September 27, 2019, 12:20:45 PM »
Not all of the USA trappings.  1/  Unlike most of Trump's US courses, and many other US courses, anyone can play Aberdeen if they're willing to pay the daily rate.  There is no gate that opens only for those who've forked over six- or even seven-figure initiation fees.  2/  You don't need to hire a caddy and you're "allowed" to use a trolley.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #938 on: September 27, 2019, 01:37:31 PM »
A cynic might be inclined to wonder what the trade-off has been.
Atb

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #939 on: September 28, 2019, 03:56:49 AM »
Not all of the USA trappings.  1/  Unlike most of Trump's US courses, and many other US courses, anyone can play Aberdeen if they're willing to pay the daily rate.  There is no gate that opens only for those who've forked over six- or even seven-figure initiation fees.  2/  You don't need to hire a caddy and you're "allowed" to use a trolley.


You are even welcome to just walk the course, if you wish.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #940 on: September 28, 2019, 03:58:39 AM »
That’s interesting. Any word on whether he’s actually going to build it straight away?


No word so far.


And considering the losses the first course is making, you surely ask why would they bother?


But then its all about houses anyway, so ... ?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #941 on: September 28, 2019, 06:35:12 AM »
Not all of the USA trappings.  1/  Unlike most of Trump's US courses, and many other US courses, anyone can play Aberdeen if they're willing to pay the daily rate.  There is no gate that opens only for those who've forked over six- or even seven-figure initiation fees.  2/  You don't need to hire a caddy and you're "allowed" to use a trolley.


You are even welcome to just walk the course, if you wish.


Brian


Serious question, is "welcome" the right word ? Certainly, you are legally entitled to walk the course or at least walk over it but that's not quite the same as being made welcome.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #942 on: September 28, 2019, 06:43:00 AM »
That’s interesting. Any word on whether he’s actually going to build it straight away?


No word so far.


And considering the losses the first course is making, you surely ask why would they bother?


But then its all about houses anyway, so ... ?




I vaguely recall playing golf with a land surveyor several years ago who advised that the course had already been pegged out on the ground. I appreciate that's only a small step but it showed intent then. As for whether it turns a profit, I tend to think there is probably a bit of financial chicanery in there to "repatriate" any profits back to the US. Certainly when I was down at Turnberry just before BUDA, on a horrendous day of downpours there was a steady stream of players coming down from the hotel to play the main course, and also quite a few on the second course and yet that is making a loss as well supposedly.


Niall   

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #943 on: September 29, 2019, 02:28:27 AM »
Serious question, is "welcome" the right word ? Certainly, you are legally entitled to walk the course or at least walk over it but that's not quite the same as being made welcome.


No, I was told I was welcome to walk the course.


And I was even given a yardage book for free, so I did not get lost.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #944 on: September 29, 2019, 08:02:55 AM »
Thanks Brian, I stand corrected.


One thing I've noticed is that down at Turnberry it's no longer Trump Turnberry but back to just Turnberry. What's the official name they give Balmedie ?


Niall

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #945 on: September 30, 2019, 02:40:49 AM »
Did not know that about Turnberry.


Would seem Balmedie is now Trump International Scotland, where I thought it used to be Trump International Golf Links.





Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #946 on: September 30, 2019, 06:51:11 AM »
Without making the effort to look at the appropriate thread, am I to take it that the disdain for the Trump course would be the same for the proposed Keiser/ Coore and Crenshaw course?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #947 on: September 30, 2019, 10:24:40 AM »
Jerry


Which "appropriate" thread are you talking about and which course are people supposedly showing disdain about ?


Niall

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #948 on: September 30, 2019, 01:20:04 PM »
Without making the effort to look at the appropriate thread, am I to take it that the disdain for the Trump course would be the same for the proposed Keiser/ Coore and Crenshaw course?

Jerry,

Have you been paying attention? Or, are you just trying to make a political statement?
I doubt Coore and Crenshaw are going inhibit links play by avoiding planting fescue to get the course open earlier. They have a track record that would certainly indicate otherwise. I believe Bill Coore is not going to produce a routing that will force walks up to dune tops to get the view while teeing off. He has a track record that would indicate otherwise. I doubt he would bulldoze dunes to get a landscape he wants instead of what he was given. He certainly seems to have avoided it at Bandon Trails, where only after customer and client feedback was he brought in to soften some of the dunes.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #949 on: September 30, 2019, 02:00:54 PM »
Garland, I don't think you're facts are correct about Aberdeen.  I think the fairways were planted in fescue, but didn't stand up in early days, so they over-seeded in hopes that the fescue could be brought back over time.  Not sure if that has happened or not.  And, as I appreciate the criticism of Trump's work in the dunes, it was not that he "bulldozed" to get what he wanted, in fact the opposite.  He stabilized them so they would remain where they are instead of moving.  So, in reality, he did take exactly what he was given.  And tried to freeze frame it.  That is objectionable in its own right to some . . . perhaps to many or most.  But certainly not the picture of destruction that you paint.  Have you ever played the course?   

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