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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #900 on: July 16, 2017, 10:08:11 AM »
Niall,


General design principles say you don't let huge slopes drain on to a green site. But I think for most links courses / sandy sites, this is completely overplayed.


Think of the greens we built on the Kilmore - almost all of them gather from the surrounding dunes on one side or more. Not only does it look more natural, it makes it far more playable when the terrain is already tough.


The eighth green at Trump is the only one I can recall that ties to the adjacent dune in this manner.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #901 on: July 29, 2018, 02:23:57 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/29/donald-trump-golf-environment-sssi-damaged-broken-promises



Trump golf resort wrecked special nature site, reports reveal
US president’s broken promises have ruined a fragile dune system
Robin McKie, Science editor
Sun 29 Jul 2018


The spectacular dunes system picked by Donald Trump for his golf resort in Aberdeenshire has been “partially destroyed” as a result of the course’s construction, documents released under the Freedom of Information Act have revealed.


Scottish Natural Heritage, which has been under pressure for years to speak out on the issue, now acknowledges that serious damage has been done to the site of special scientific interest (SSSI) at Foveran Links on the Menie estate, north of Aberdeen, since the course opened in 2012, the documents show.


As a result, Foveran’s SSSI status – given because of its unusual shifting sands and diverse plant life – now hangs in the balance.


“Construction of the new golf course involved earthworks, planting of trees, greens and fairways, drainage, irrigation and grass planting,” states one of the reports released by Scottish Natural Heritage inspectors. “This has affected the natural morphology of the dunes and interfered with natural processes. Most of its important geomorphological features have been lost or reduced to fragments. Nearby marine terraces have also been reduced to fragments.”


“These documents show that considerable damage has been done to Foveran Links, and that it is very unlikely that it will retain its SSSI status,” said Bob Ward, the policy director at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment, who obtained the reports under FoI. Ward has also asked the Scottish government to investigate whether proper environmental monitoring has been carried out at the site since 2012.


A decision to remove the scientific status of the links could affect the US president’s recently announced plans to invest a further Ł150m in the resort.


Scottish Natural Heritage has been reviewing the state of the lengthy stretch of mobile dunes partly covered by the course for several years and had promised to publish its findings late last year. However, the group has still to outline its views in public.


Trump originally won approval for his “Trump Estate” encompassing the protected dunes because he pledged to create up to 6,000 jobs by building a five-star hotel with 450 rooms, shops, a sports complex, timeshare flats, two golf courses and housing estates there. However, so far he has constructed only one 18-hole course, which is open seven months a year, a practice range, and a small clubhouse with a restaurant and shop; he also converted Menie’s manor house into a boutique hotel with 16 rooms.


Many local residents and councillors believe that the development did not justify destroying the delicate ecosystem at Foveran. They say Trump failed to honour promises he made in 2008 to protect the site as much as possible when he encouraged a planning inquiry to ignore the dunes’ SSSI status.


Normally the site’s conservation status would have prevented any significant development. But Trump said that, if he was refused permission to develop on the southern end of the SSSI, he would withdraw from the entire scheme. He also claimed that, when completed, the land there would be “environmentally enhanced and better than it was before”. The Trump Organization said last year its environmental approach to the course had been “first class”.


That view is disputed by conservationists. “It’s been ruined from a virgin, undeveloped wilderness site into something that’s relatively manicured,” said Dr Jim Hansom, a specialist in coastal ecology at Glasgow University. He told a recent BBC Scotland documentary the site had lost the key features that led to it being given protection. The decision to approve the course was met with anger by conservation groups. “It appears that the desires of one high-profile overseas developer, who refused to compromise one inch, have been allowed to override the legal protection of this important site. And we fear this sets a precedent that will undermine the whole protected-sites network in Scotland,” Aedán Smith, head of planning and development at RSPB Scotland, told the Times.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #902 on: August 21, 2018, 02:57:46 AM »
Coming back from the North Sea yesterday afternoon, got a nice flyover the course.


Considering the summer we are having, it was a very un-links like electric green.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 04:17:33 PM by Brian_Ewen »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #903 on: August 21, 2018, 03:49:04 AM »
Which can only be bad news for any proposed new links developments.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #904 on: August 21, 2018, 07:04:39 AM »

Brian,


alas the Trump organisation went for a mix including none links grasses to seed the course which was always going to mean it would not play as a links should.


Jon

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #905 on: August 21, 2018, 08:36:01 AM »

Brian,


alas the Trump organisation went for a mix including none links grasses to seed the course which was always going to mean it would not play as a links should.


Jon


Not correct. They overseeded with rye when the fescue took longer to come in than expected. That was in the first year of opening. By the end of the second year, presumably through heavy use of Rescue, the rye had been eliminated and the playing sward was basically all fine grasses.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #906 on: August 21, 2018, 09:17:34 AM »
Yes, Adam, you are correct. I just played there in June and the turf was excellent... just what one would expect on a links course.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #907 on: August 21, 2018, 09:54:31 AM »
Mike

We must have played when it had just opened. From the tee to about a hundred yards from the green it was like playing off a shag pile carpet. Fortunately the green complexes were fine.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #908 on: August 21, 2018, 10:46:13 AM »
Yeah that was the rye overseed. It was especially weird because as you say once you got to within fifty or a hundred yards of the green you got onto the fescue that had been turfed, which was super-perfect.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #909 on: August 21, 2018, 01:55:22 PM »

Brian,


alas the Trump organisation went for a mix including none links grasses to seed the course which was always going to mean it would not play as a links should.


Jon


Not correct. They overseeded with rye when the fescue took longer to come in than expected. That was in the first year of opening. By the end of the second year, presumably through heavy use of Rescue, the rye had been eliminated and the playing sward was basically all fine grasses.



Funny how you say I am wrong and then write exactly what I said or do you think rye is a links grass? ::) Admittedly I was last there about 12 months ago but there was still plenty of rye in the sward. Of course it might have reduced in the meantime.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #910 on: June 29, 2019, 03:50:07 AM »
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/donald-trumps-aberdeenshire-golf-course-17275160



Donald Trump’s Aberdeenshire golf course blamed for destroying protected wildlife site
Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) said there is no longer a reason to protect the dunes at Menie any longer in wake of development of gold resort.
By Record Reporter
29 JUN 2019


Sand dunes at Donald Trump’s Aberdeenshire golf resort may lose their status as a protected wildlife site.


Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) said there is no longer a reason to protect the dunes at Menie as they do not include enough of the special features for which they were designated a site of special scientific interest (SSSI).


The designation is given to areas with rare species of fauna or flora or with important geological or physiological features.


The Trump Organisation called the move a “stitch-up”.


Yesterday marked the beginning of a three-month consultation on the future status of Foveran Links SSSI, of which the dunes at Menie form part.


Trump was granted permission to build a golf course at the site despite concerns about damage to the dunes. Trump International Golf Links opened in 2012.


SNH said evidence showed permanent habitat loss following the construction of fairways and greens and that stabilisation of mobile sand “has destroyed the dynamic nature of the site”.
 
Sally Thomas, director of people and nature at SNH, said: “The denotification of SSSIs is unusual, however in this case we have found there is no longer a reason to protect the dunes at Menie as they do not include enough of the special, natural features for which they were designated.


"We work with developers across Scotland to ensure habitats and wildlife are protected when development work is undertaken. Most of the time, development can take place without damaging important natural features but that was not the case in this instance.”


Scottish Green party co-convener Patrick Harvie, who campaigned against the development, said: “It has ruined, destroyed, gubbed, the kind of natural environment that those paper protections were there to protect.”


The Scottish Government said ministers approved the Menie Golf Resort application in line with independent recommendations that overall, the economic and social benefits of the proposal “justified the adverse environmental impacts caused”.
 
The Trump Organisaton’s Sarah Malone said: “This is an utter disgrace and shows SNH has hit an all time low.


“To make an announcement to the media before informing us, the actual landowner, shows how politically-motivated this decision is.


“What other SSSI landowner is singled out in this way. It’s a stitch-up.


“Before Donald Trump invested in the site, SNH had little interest in the SSSI at Foveran Links and did even less about it and has barely been on the property since.”

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #911 on: June 29, 2019, 06:36:44 AM »
From afar, my initial reaction is that I agree with the Trump Organisation here:


It’s a deliberate move aimed at stopping future development elsewhere by reminding everyone how bad this development was for the environment.


I find it hard to believe that part of this site is not still showing a priority one fixed dune habitat. And SNH are likely making it easier for Trump to further develop on this particular site by removing its status.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #912 on: June 29, 2019, 09:15:42 AM »
Ally

I appreciate that's your initial reaction but your take seems a bit nonsensical. If you look back at Brian's post of July last year you will note the newspaper report stating that an SNH study concluded that at that point the designation was in the balance. Bear in mind also that info came from an FOI request rather than a SNH publication.

The story states that SNH had been due to publish their report some 6-9 months earlier and it is only now that they have done so, some 18 months late. It seems to me that rather than making a point, they are simply saying it as it is. Which by the way, surely is good news for Trump as the removal of the SSSI designation will put less restrictions on building the second course, will it not ?

As for the Trump Org reaction, is that not true to form ? ie pick a fight even when their is no cause ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #913 on: June 29, 2019, 10:20:29 AM »
Hi Niall,


Like I stated, I agree it is probably good news for the Trump Org...


But I have first hand experience to know some of these designations are a little arbitrary. And it seems to me that whilst they undoubtedly lost the fantastic sand dome that was there, the site must still have a large element of fixed dune habitat, which is priority 1 in EU designations.


This course took a really heavy hand to development. On the flip side, I was just surmising that this sounds a little bit like propaganda. You’re right though, I need to read the report. Just speculation on my part.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #914 on: June 29, 2019, 10:54:00 AM »

I suppose this is what happens when a government over turns a local planning decision. It was originally denied planning due to this very reason and the Scottish Government in overturning the denial did so because they felt the economic benefits far outweighed the environmental damage. As Niall points out this will probably make it easier for Trump's second course if it ever gets built.


What I fear somewhat is the repercussions for Coul Links which is still under review by the government.


Jon

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #915 on: June 29, 2019, 11:31:53 AM »
Yep Jon - that’s why I don’t trust it.


Never heard of a national environmental group giving up an SSSI or SAC before. It’s not in their nature at all.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #916 on: June 29, 2019, 11:47:46 AM »
Yep Jon - that’s why I don’t trust it.


Never heard of a national environmental group giving up an SSSI or SAC before. It’s not in their nature at all.


And no mention of any legal action of any sort? Are they just going to roll over?
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #917 on: June 29, 2019, 01:59:14 PM »

And no mention of any legal action of any sort? Are they just going to roll over?
F.




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Yep Jon - that’s why I don’t trust it.
Never heard of a national environmental group giving up an SSSI or SAC before. It’s not in their nature at all.
[/l][/font][/color]
That struck me too Marty. I am amazed that there was not an almost constant watch on the project and yet it appears that either there was no oversight or if there was nothing was objected to. This amazes me as their powers to intervene are quite substantial.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #918 on: July 01, 2019, 01:09:18 PM »
That's an interesting question regarding enforcement. I wonder if there is a jurisdictional issue on the basis of the development having obtained planning permission. I understand that they contravened their planning permission in a number of ways but does that then fall to the planning authority to police or does it sit with SNH ? To be honest, I've no idea.


Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #919 on: July 01, 2019, 01:34:12 PM »
Well to be fair, he's just not a rich guy anymore.  He's a rich guy who also happens to be POTUS and certainly willing to do whatever the hell he wants... on a whim.  That's certainly a different kind of animal to deal with.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #920 on: July 02, 2019, 09:10:25 AM »

But I have first hand experience to know some of these designations are a little arbitrary. And it seems to me that whilst they undoubtedly lost the fantastic sand dome that was there, the site must still have a large element of fixed dune habitat, which is priority 1 in EU designations.



Ally:


I know you know this, but for the benefit of everyone else who might read this thread, the UK government always insisted on using its own environmental rules and not the EU's.  That's why there has been some links course development in the UK in the past 20 years, but virtually none in Ireland or The Netherlands or other places in Europe which have sand dunes.


The UK's insistence on marching to its own drummer probably goes double now that they are in the stage of withdrawal, and it's a perfect time for Trump [or whoever] to try and get their land re-designated.  It's just much easier to lean on politicians, and that is exactly what's being described here, taking the designation out of the hands of SNH altogether.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #921 on: July 02, 2019, 12:04:01 PM »
Tom


I don't think that anyone is talking about changing the system, it's just that SNH are changing their designation of Balmedie. For example, there would be no point keeping the Alamo as a listed monument or whatever if Trump had already flattened it and built a shopping mall on top of it.


Niall

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #922 on: July 02, 2019, 07:35:45 PM »
This thread reeks of politics.


Hoping to play it pre-Buda and see what all the fuss is about.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #923 on: July 02, 2019, 09:54:50 PM »
Lou, agree regarding the direction of the thread.  As I previously noted, regardless of who owns it and/or the process involved in approval, its a great property.  I played it when it was pretty new and not as firm as I understand it has become so I will assume it has become more "links like"..  I thought the routing overemphasized the spectacular views and, in an odd way, diminished them because every opportunity was taken to place elevated tees atop high points making them almost repetitive.  Additionally, some of the buildings broke up some "long views".  But it was a very good golf course even allowing for some of the excesses in presentation.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #924 on: July 03, 2019, 01:07:42 PM »
This thread reeks of politics.


Hoping to play it pre-Buda and see what all the fuss is about.



Lou,


the whole project has only been about politics so hardly surprising this thread reflects that.


SL_S,


regardless of whether a person thinks this site should have been developed or not (put me firmly in the not camp) it is spectacular. The course is in my view very disappointing in that I doubt you could have built a more middle of the road course on that site. It was Hawtree's big chance to make a mark and he dropped the ball IMHO. Sad and a wasted opportunity but a decent course none the less though there are a few dozen courses a head of it.


Jon

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