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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #875 on: October 14, 2016, 09:05:50 PM »
The "loophole" is not a loophole, it is a legitimate legal deduction. Companies use it all the time and it can only be used to offset future earnings. No different than any other legal deduction


"Loophole" does not mean it's illegal, it means it's a little quirk in the law that allows something that shouldn't be allowed.  I think the term "loophole" is deserved when the law allows someone to write off a loss for which the loan was actually forgiven by the bank.  This particular tax write-off was later repealed, but they couldn't do it ex post facto, allowing some people to keep taking deductions for years after the fact.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #876 on: October 16, 2016, 04:59:03 AM »
Interesting and golf relevant article in yesterday's (London) Times:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-trumps-a-sexist-i-wouldnt-be-in-this-job-msnfxpcrk
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #877 on: October 16, 2016, 07:01:00 AM »
Hello,


As this article goes, I have nothing to say about his treatment or view of women. To me that's for each of you John Q. Citizens to evaluate - use this article as much or as little as you wish to find your truth.


In the main, I find little "balancing" effect in the portrait carved here. I know first hand the worker-speak of those who receive(d) a paycheck from Trump...the larger that paycheck, the more fulsome the praise. I've known a pro, a caddiemaster, a superintendent, a f/b manager and a handful of other staff at a couple of Trump-named clubs, and while they all have a thesis/conclusion of "he does things first class" - the whole body of what they describe in between, day-in, day-out, is a petulant tyrant around whom everyone walks on eggshells, who reverses decisions and micro-manages when he is on property. He is said to give out memberships to people and never tell the staff, then bellow when the new initiate is unrecognized...he is said to voice his displeasure at some deficient ornament, project or staff practice, then go ape-shit when the bill or the delay is presented to him upon its implementation, disavowing that he ever so directed.


On purely GCA merits, I say this: The courses I've seen, played and heard tell are very jokey, very faux, very expensive, very earth-moved, very rock-cut, the kind of courses where the six sets of tee markers are nicer and almost as expensive as the teeing grounds, where the cart paths are as beautiful as the fairways, where the water fountains and benches are gorgeous and the "signature" holes always rendered with some element of fake scenery baked-in.  The courses of his I know best are entirely an aerial game, still larded with trees, have many holes with OB or hazard on one side or both, and the kind of course most on here (as I know you) would only want to see a couple of times, but could never ever play regularly as a member. There's no charm or subtlety to them, they're mostly 18 sets of audacious, one trick pony paths where deviation from the program means double or worse. At Trump Briarcliff (the first or second of his chain) the signature hole is the Par 3 13th, a 175-215 yard semi-blind shot to a-near island green set in a basin of a 100 foot waterfall (which is so loud that you can't hear somebody saying "that's good")...If you were leading the US Open I would recommend you push out onto the safety of the 11th fairway and tack on from that side, make a 4, and get out of there.


In a unintended parallel ...that's perhaps HRC's strategy for these last 3 weeks. :P


cheers
vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #878 on: October 19, 2016, 09:36:04 AM »
Mr Kmetz


If you have never played Trump Aberdeen nor met Ms. Malone, why do you respond?


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #879 on: July 13, 2017, 01:53:00 PM »
At the risk of moving this thread back into the realms of GCA and away from politics I recently made my first visit to Trump International Aberdeen.


Out of the comments I've read so far the one that best resonates with my feelings were made by Sean which is not a huge surprise. The course is big and spectacular. There are beautiful views and huge dunes. I think it has a place in the Scottish links courses but I'm not sure I think they did everything right from an architectural standpoint. Here's why, 12 raised tee boxes and 12 raised greens. The theme thus is let's make a spectacular tee shot with a great view, then let's set up an amphitheater type green raised and surrounded by giant dunes.


These features make the course extremely challenging in the wind, especially from the back tees which are certainly long enough to challenge any of the longest hitters.


I couldn't help to wonder what other architects would of done with this site. Where there a lot of options given the size of the dunes or was this type of routing a mandate from Mr. President.


As Sean very accurately stated, this is a links course to be mostly played in the air and like him I'm not a huge fan of that aspect. However, I know many people that are, fair enough.


On a side note the 2nd hole and the 14th holes from the furthest back elevated tees are two of the hardest tee shots taking the wind into account I've ever seen. Yes they are spectacular but very tough and 14 requires a sizable carry to reach the fairway. Again both play up to down to up.


I did have a great time there, the accommodation in the Macleod House is wonderful if not a bit gaudy as Trump can be. To their credit they had just put in a new whisky bar complete with their own whisky expert who happily spent a couple evenings educating me (in as far as this is possible). It was done in exquisite old Scottish style without all the typical Trump gold plated paraphernalia, not even a mini waterfall which is more than I could say for the covers on my bed and the faucets in the bathroom.


In the end, I think it's a great place to use as a base for seeing the courses in the Aberdeen area. The course needs to be played a couple times at least. It's a serious walk so be warned, especially with all the climbing.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #880 on: July 13, 2017, 02:01:16 PM »
David, interesting that you note there are several elevated tees on holes where there is a difficult drive (carry) and wind direction (was it the prevailing wind?).  Kind of like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #881 on: July 13, 2017, 02:14:59 PM »
David,
do you think that the course as it is should have rather been built elsewhere and that the regular winds were not considered enough in the design? With those elevated tees and greens and it generally playing more through the air, I get the feeling it would be a more effective course on a coast that's less exposed to wind.
For me, at least, it would be a nightmare standing on those tee boxes in high winds. Strategy, if there is any, would be lost because I would struggle enough keeping the ball in play. I guess many others would do so, too?

 Cheers

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #882 on: July 14, 2017, 02:38:25 PM »
David, interesting that you note there are several elevated tees on holes where there is a difficult drive (carry) and wind direction (was it the prevailing wind?).  Kind of like fitting a square peg in a round hole.


Hi Keith,


I'm not 100% sure it was the prevailing wind and both days it was different slightly. I doubt honestly however that there are many days that are without wind so for me and my level these holes would always be a real challenge from the tee.


I know however to put a solid frame of reference here for you that a good friend of mine, ex challenge tour player also missed the fairway and lost the ball on #14. He's still as good a player that's not on the tour as you are going to find and thought the shot demanded was extremely tough in the wind on that hole.


These are not impossible shots, they are just really tough and really intimidating to me. I can't judge how others will perceive the for certain but I can only guess.


I can say that I really like playing in the wind even so the left to right against wind like we had #2 is no doubt my least favorite.



Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #883 on: July 14, 2017, 03:08:42 PM »
David,
do you think that the course as it is should have rather been built elsewhere and that the regular winds were not considered enough in the design? With those elevated tees and greens and it generally playing more through the air, I get the feeling it would be a more effective course on a coast that's less exposed to wind.
For me, at least, it would be a nightmare standing on those tee boxes in high winds. Strategy, if there is any, would be lost because I would struggle enough keeping the ball in play. I guess many others would do so, too?

 Cheers


Emil,


Thanks for the comment. I don't think the course should of been built someplace else. I only think the recurring theme of high tee shot to low fairway back up to high tee shot is overdone, as Sean stated made to played in the air as opposed to on the ground.


I think there is plenty of strategy as that is largely determined by the pin positions and the width of the fairways for example and there is plenty of width for the most part. I do think there are less choices in terms of how to execute the strategy when you remove the ground game from the equation. Don't let any of this discourage you from going to see this course.




Here is a photo of #14, notice at the beginning of the fairway on the left you can see the shady area, it's fairly light, that is actually a pretty severe slope and one of my drives that felt really great just hit the top of that and rolled back about 25 yds. A pretty severe penalty for actually hitting this fairway and making the carry. It runs across the fairway but you can only see it really on the left side in the photo.





Here is the view on #2


Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Michael Tamburrini

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #884 on: July 14, 2017, 04:59:52 PM »
90% of the time 14 is downwind and 2 would be into. I haven't played the course but it's worth noting when considering the design.  Murcar, for example, has a bunch of long (ish) and narrow holes on the usually downwind front 9, but is wider and shorter coming back into the wind.

Martin Lehmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #885 on: July 15, 2017, 01:44:47 AM »
The current POTUS doesn't belong to my list of most favorite persons on our planet, but you have to give him credit for the contributions he made to golf in Scotland. I know that many disagree, environmentalists and watchers of the documentary that was made about the construction of Trump International Golf Links (which is pretty biased and tendencious), but the links in Aberdeen is without doubt and in all objectivity one of the best new golf courses that have been built in recent years.


The changes made under Trump's management at Turnberry must be quite good as well (haven't seen them myself). I'm with a group of distinguished gentlemen golfers from Scotland at the moment (the oldest one is 92 years of age), and they all speak highly about the improvements made at the Ailsa course.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #886 on: July 15, 2017, 05:20:08 AM »
the links in Aberdeen is without doubt and in all objectivity one of the best new golf courses that have been built in recent years.
Is it?  Really?  There aren't very many links that have been built in recent years and whilst there's no doubt it's very good, nothing I have read here suggests to me that it's nearly as good as Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #887 on: July 15, 2017, 06:41:58 AM »
......but you have to give him credit for the contributions he made to golf in Scotland.
!
atb

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #888 on: July 15, 2017, 07:35:09 AM »
the links in Aberdeen is without doubt and in all objectivity one of the best new golf courses that have been built in recent years.
Is it?  Really?  There aren't very many links that have been built in recent years and whilst there's no doubt it's very good, nothing I have read here suggests to me that it's nearly as good as Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart.


To answer this question we are going to need as comprehensive a list of candidate courses as we can come up with. So, confining ourselves to recently built links (definition of links for the sake of this list: seaside, naturally sandy [a certain amount of mining sand on site and using it to construct holes allowed but no out and out non-sandy sites that were capped], close to the sea, cool season grasses and at least a decent attempt to grow fine links turf i.e. fescue and browntop bents):


Kingsbarns
Castle Stuart
Machrihanish Dunes
Askernish
Trump International
Doonbeg
Carne Kilmore (nine holes)
Budersand
Foehr
Lofoten Links
Parnu Bay
Bandon Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald
Bandon Trails
Chambers Bay
Cabot Links
Cabot Cliffs
Friars Head
Sebonack
Cape Wickham
Ocean Dunes
Barnbougle Dunes
Lost Farm
Tara Iti


So, first: what have I missed? Second, any inclusions anyone feels strongly should not be there? Then we can move forward and try to rank them

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #889 on: July 15, 2017, 07:43:55 AM »
the links in Aberdeen is without doubt and in all objectivity one of the best new golf courses that have been built in recent years.
Is it?  Really?  There aren't very many links that have been built in recent years and whilst there's no doubt it's very good, nothing I have read here suggests to me that it's nearly as good as Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart.


To answer this question we are going to need as comprehensive a list of candidate courses as we can come up with. So, confining ourselves to recently built links (definition of links for the sake of this list: seaside, naturally sandy [a certain amount of mining sand on site and using it to construct holes allowed but no out and out non-sandy sites that were capped], close to the sea, cool season grasses and at least a decent attempt to grow fine links turf i.e. fescue and browntop bents):


Kingsbarns
Castle Stuart
Machrihanish Dunes
Askernish
Trump International
Doonbeg
Carne Kilmore (nine holes)
Budersand
Foehr
Lofoten Links
Parnu Bay
Bandon Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald
Bandon Trails
Chambers Bay
Cabot Links
Cabot Cliffs
Friars Head
Sebonack
Cape Wickham
Ocean Dunes
Barnbougle Dunes
Lost Farm
Tara Iti


So, first: what have I missed? Second, any inclusions anyone feels strongly should not be there? Then we can move forward and try to rank them


Give or take,it looks like you've chosen around the year 2000 for your starting point.


In which case, Rosapenna Sandy Hills (2003) should be added.


You've chosen a very broad definition of links as you state - I'd argue nearly 50% of them normally. But agree it's best to keep it wide for the sake of this discussion.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #890 on: July 15, 2017, 08:37:55 AM »
Adam

Would you consider the two courses at Turnberry for the list given the amount of work done to each ?

Martin

Let me suggest a few reasons why the development of Balmedie isn't really that great a contribution to golf in Scotland. Firstly its a pretty good course but considering the wealth of great links courses Scotland has, its not really that big a contribution to the overall pot.

Any beneficial contribution in that sense is I think is outweighed by the serious negative contribution it has made in terms of developing a particularly environmentally sensitive site. I don't think that has done anyone any favours and in my view will potentially make golf course development more difficult going forward eg. the Embra site north of Dornoch. 

The other big negative, and Trump is certainly not alone in this, is the pricing. Golf in Scotland has traditionally been fairly affordable and egalitarian. In recent years however green fees have gone through the roof. I suspect if you give it another twenty years, resident Scots like me will be coming on here to ask rich visitors what Scotlands top courses are like because they won't have been able to play them because of the cost !!

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #891 on: July 15, 2017, 09:21:54 AM »
Adam

Would you consider the two courses at Turnberry for the list given the amount of work done to each ?

Niall


I was trying to stick to new courses. But I realised I forgot Dundonald.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #892 on: July 15, 2017, 11:08:24 AM »
Yas Links?
Other shoreline courses in the sandy Middle East (true links? faux links?). Even Vietnam?
Covesea.

Atb
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 11:19:12 AM by Thomas Dai »

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #893 on: July 15, 2017, 12:19:38 PM »
Adam,
I'd like to try an alternative approach and compare the course only to other new courses that are equally blessed as Trump International Golf Links with a) a spectacularly beautiful site that is well suited for golf and b) a budget that does not limit the project to produce a great quality course.
This is what I've narrowed down your list to, although I wasn't sure about site or budget where I've put a question mark:

Kingsbarns (?)
Machrihanish Dunes (?)
Trump International
Doonbeg
Bandon Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald
Cabot Links
Cabot Cliffs
Friars Head
Sebonack
Cape Wickham
Ocean Dunes (?)
Barnbougle Dunes
Lost Farm
Tara Iti
*edit, would like to add: The European Club


Personally, I think that this would be the fairest "control group" to judge the quality of TIGL, even though it must probably be said that the starting position of both site and budget of TIGL was very, very good, compared even to this list of courses.
TIGL ranks about average compared to this control group in magazines and websites, I would say.
I have not played TIGL and most of the other courses, so you can ignore this comment, but TIGL would actually be one of the 3-4 courses I'd least want to see from this list.


Best,
Emil
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 12:27:58 PM by Emil Weber »

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #894 on: July 15, 2017, 12:26:18 PM »
David,
thanks for your reply! I definitely wouldn't say no to a game, judging from these pics, it does look beautiful. But, both fairways look unnaturally flat in the surrounding dunesscape, did you get that impression when you were playing, also with some of the other holes?
Best,
Emil

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #895 on: July 15, 2017, 12:43:48 PM »
Yas Links?
Other shoreline courses in the sandy Middle East (true links? faux links?). Even Vietnam?
Covesea.

Atb


Warm season grasses.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #896 on: July 15, 2017, 01:49:46 PM »
Every links site (on real seaside dunes) is very different to another.


Real links sites tend to also be very different from the sites that the majority of courses Emil has left in represent. For many of those, the architects had huge tracts of land from which to route their courses.


Trump may be a spectacular site but it is not in the same league as a 2,000 acre parcel of land with rolling sandhills when it comes to routing.


Because of the high dunes and narrow valleys (in places), the routing options were not as vast. Nor were they ideal in some places. Most of the big minimalist moderns have multiples of the routing choices that there were at Trump.


So from that point of view, the routing is just fine at Balmedie - anyone taking issue with it is really picking at straws and is being a little unfair.


Therefore all you can do is pick at the detail - the rest is sound.


I agree with David that the number of popped up green sites is a little disappointing. That would be my major gripe. After that, you can have a go at the elevated back tees (developer driven rather than architect driven), the fact the fairways were sculpted / capped everywhere rather than just "mown out" (necessary in many places I suspect for water table in dune slacks and violent movement) and the rather homogenous size and shape of the bunkering.


Do the above design choices reduce the quality of the course? They would for many on this website. But probably not for many who don't frequent our particular clique.


Finally, the course is BIG and tiring. It is not ideal from this point of view. But what's new? Most moderns are far too big, even if they pretend that they aren't. And at least Trump hasn't hidden its desire to hold big tournaments.


Bottom line - I prefer a different kind of course to Trump..... But many don't.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #897 on: July 15, 2017, 02:09:24 PM »
the links in Aberdeen is without doubt and in all objectivity one of the best new golf courses that have been built in recent years.
Is it?  Really?  There aren't very many links that have been built in recent years and whilst there's no doubt it's very good, nothing I have read here suggests to me that it's nearly as good as Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart.


To answer this question we are going to need as comprehensive a list of candidate courses as we can come up with. So, confining ourselves to recently built links (definition of links for the sake of this list: seaside, naturally sandy [a certain amount of mining sand on site and using it to construct holes allowed but no out and out non-sandy sites that were capped], close to the sea, cool season grasses and at least a decent attempt to grow fine links turf i.e. fescue and browntop bents):


Kingsbarns
Castle Stuart
Machrihanish Dunes
Askernish
Trump International
Doonbeg
Carne Kilmore (nine holes)
Budersand
Foehr
Lofoten Links
Parnu Bay
Bandon Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald
Bandon Trails
Chambers Bay
Cabot Links
Cabot Cliffs
Friars Head
Sebonack
Cape Wickham
Ocean Dunes
Barnbougle Dunes
Lost Farm
Tara Iti


So, first: what have I missed? Second, any inclusions anyone feels strongly should not be there? Then we can move forward and try to rank them
Adam - I would not include Bandon Trails... not a Links.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #898 on: July 15, 2017, 07:15:58 PM »
I think one must at least partially evaluate a course based on what it is trying to be.  It seems obvious to me that Trump Aberdeen is designed for big events and moving people around the course for these events.  Once that is the focus of a design it is very difficult to create playability and ease of walk for handicap players. Trump doesn't do a terrible job at this, but it is clear to me handicap play was sacrificed for big boy play.  I still think it is a great course, but not a patch on Castle Stuart which actually does pull off the playability spectrum as well as any links in GB&I...and it manages to do so and still be a beautiful course.  That said, because Trump doesn't measure up to Castle Stuart is no disgrace. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #899 on: July 16, 2017, 09:45:27 AM »
Sean

There's no doubt that CS was built for tournament play when you consider all the viewing platforms that were created on the upper level. There's no doubt it compromised the aesthetics if not the actual course. Balmedie on the other hand is a big modern as Ally describes but I do wonder how readily you could move large crowds about with the severity of the dune slopes.

Ally

"I agree with David that the number of popped up green sites is a little disappointing." - is that not a function of the site to a large extent ? When your greens are pushed into corners and surrounded by steep slopes are you not almost forced to putting a dry moat round them, even on a links site, to prevent flooding ? I seem to recall Tom D doing that in one of his par 3's at Streamsong, I think.

Niall