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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #650 on: July 13, 2013, 04:58:09 AM »
27 pages, 670 posts. I wonder how many folk have actually been to Aberdeen or the NE of Scotland, the land of Doric? "Fit like louns and quines, fancy a rowie?"
ATB

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #651 on: July 13, 2013, 08:42:07 AM »

I think we could really do with a top-class hotel though.


I don't know Aberdeen at all, but I always doubted Trump would build a top-class hotel in the middle of an economic downturn, especially in an area not noted for tourism.  The wind turbines seem like a smokescreen to let him back out of something I think he never intended in the first place. 

I never looked at the surveys in any detail, but I clearly remember reports that a big majority of locals supported the Trump project; and the small minority who didn't were some environmentalists and a local government council.  The gist of some arguments here on GCA back then was whether the council of a few people should impose their desires on the wishes of the masses. 

Jim

Like nearly all western economies, the UK economy has taken a tanking since the credit crunch. Even the goldmine of the SE of England has suffered. The one area that has continued to do well is the Aberdeen area, and the reason for that is that Aberdeen is the oil capital of Europe. The economy is built almost entirely on oil, and with the price of oil continuing to be at an all time high there is strong demand for everything from qualified staff, business premises, housing and hotels. I've no doubt that the houses and hotel will get built but he's maybe having to redo the numbers and design.

With regards to the reports you read about mass support, a lot of that was based on support from the local CBI and limited number polls commissioned by interested parties. Likewise the anti brigade was spearheaded by environmental and natural heritage groups as well as individuals personally affected by Trumps antics. The big boost Trump got was getting the P&J on their side to the extent that the local Trump GM Sarah Malone recently married the editor of the paper. Hard to imagine that the P&J was all that impartial in all of this, don't you think ?

Niall

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #652 on: July 13, 2013, 09:02:19 AM »
Chris

As I'm pointing out to you, your statement regarding the nature of the opposition isn't based on factual accounts, nor is your suggestion that a majority support the scheme based on any facts. 27 pages in and you haven't cottoned on to that. Suggest that maybe you come over and ask the locals, and people elsewhere in Scotland what they think and I guarantee you will get a wide divergence of answers which would leave you general characterisations and supposed factual statements looking pretty stupid.

Niall

Niall,

There’s a really good public document- The Report to Scottish Ministers- a complete documentation of the entire review process from when the Trump application was called in.  It’s a comprehensive and impartial rendering of all the events.  All of the statements I’ve made regarding the support and opposition, the economic reports and analysis…and even the effects on the SSSI- are clearly and objectively detailed in the report in very thorough fashion. It’s all there.

So please feel free to dispute the official public record and the actual facts…and please provide facts and source documentation in your analysis.  Most of the rest of the commentary seems to be devolving into gossip, heresay and agenda driven opinion.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #653 on: July 13, 2013, 05:13:53 PM »
Chris

As I'm pointing out to you, your statement regarding the nature of the opposition isn't based on factual accounts, nor is your suggestion that a majority support the scheme based on any facts. 27 pages in and you haven't cottoned on to that. Suggest that maybe you come over and ask the locals, and people elsewhere in Scotland what they think and I guarantee you will get a wide divergence of answers which would leave you general characterisations and supposed factual statements looking pretty stupid.

Niall

Niall,

There’s a really good public document- The Report to Scottish Ministers- a complete documentation of the entire review process from when the Trump application was called in.  It’s a comprehensive and impartial rendering of all the events.  All of the statements I’ve made regarding the support and opposition, the economic reports and analysis…and even the effects on the SSSI- are clearly and objectively detailed in the report in very thorough fashion. It’s all there.

So please feel free to dispute the official public record and the actual facts…and please provide facts and source documentation in your analysis.  Most of the rest of the commentary seems to be devolving into gossip, heresay and agenda driven opinion.


Chris,

you are aware that the whole calling in of this project by the Scottish Executive is somewhat controversial and they probably wish they never had. As for the report their decision was based on being a comprehensive and impartial rendering of all the events.  That all of the effects on the SSSI-being clearly and objectively detailed in the report in very thorough fashion. It is if you want it to be though it is amazing how much research was done in such a short time. A cynical person might think  some of it was taken from sources already written.

I agree that the course is a good thing for the area but the manner in which it has been achieved is far from that you would expect in a democratic country.

Jon

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #654 on: July 13, 2013, 05:17:02 PM »
At RCP if we build a new 20 sq yard tee we have to return the same sized area somewhere on the links to its natural state. Such is the level of protection provided by the SSSI status.
Cave Nil Vino

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #655 on: July 13, 2013, 06:42:40 PM »
Mark,

That seems rather severe.

Essentially they're stating that the area of the golf course is frozen in size but not in configuration.
It seems to ignore the very nature of a golf course.

Do you feel that the remediation requirements are excessive ?

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #656 on: July 14, 2013, 12:46:25 AM »
Jim I wonder what the local/national support would have been if Trump had said there will be 200 jobs after 2 years?

The one thing that gets me about this whole project is Trump goes on about dedicating the project to his mother who loved Scotland so much. So why does he treat a small number of people so badly? The whole ethos of rural life in Scotland is living in harmony with the land, not adding trees and berms to screw the neighbours view.

Good question about 200 jobs.  And has the course really created 200 full-time jobs?  If so, at just $25,000 per year, labor alone costs them $5 million annually.  Without a firm accounting -- knowing Trump's propensity to 'exaggerate' -- I take the 200 jobs number with a big grain of salt. 

He treats people so badly because he is an asshole.  He was more than willing to turn to eminent domain, as he has in the past, to get his way. 

That said, the course sounds fantastic, and will probably get better with time.  Strictly as a lover of great golf courses, would love to see a second course there.


The one area that has continued to do well is the Aberdeen area, and the reason for that is that Aberdeen is the oil capital of Europe. The economy is built almost entirely on oil, and with the price of oil continuing to be at an all time high there is strong demand for everything from qualified staff, business premises, housing and hotels. I've no doubt that the houses and hotel will get built but he's maybe having to redo the numbers and design.


I personally would not want to commit to a huge hotel/real estate development, if it hinges on oil holding its near record high price.  Oil prices have spiked many times before, only to fall way, way lower.  With fracking opening up huge new oil fields, maybe Trump doesn't like that bet either. 




 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #657 on: July 14, 2013, 08:54:45 AM »

He treats people so badly because he is an asshole. 

Jim,

You don't know what you're talking about.

At one time I thought the same, but, after talking to dozens of employees from numerous Trump sites, just the opposite came to light.
To the person they all stated that they enjoyed working for Trump and that they were treated properly.


He was more than willing to turn to eminent domain, as he has in the past, to get his way. 

Why wouldn't any developer do the same ?
Surely you're familiar with "Kelo vs City of New London", a revolutionary case regarding development.


That said, the course sounds fantastic, and will probably get better with time.  Strictly as a lover of great golf courses, would love to see a second course there.

Can't understand why anyone wouldn't


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #658 on: July 14, 2013, 09:01:51 AM »
Jim

Re the oil business, I think its fair to say I would have been better phrasing it as oil and related energy sector services business (snappy title, eh ?). It used to be that 80% of the oil related business in Aberdeen related to the north sea oil fields but now I'm told it is 80% related to oil and gas fields elsewhere. Much of the technology and know how is equally applicable in fracking so I don't see that as competition but more another string to the industry's bow. Let me qualify my comments above by saying I'm not in any way involved in the oil business but have dealt with a number of companies who are.

Niall

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #659 on: July 27, 2013, 01:18:10 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324564704578629802278401688.html

Donald Trump's New Golf Course in Scotland Falls Short The Trump International Golf Links-Scotland: Impressive and Picturesque, but Imperfect
By JOHN PAUL NEWPORT



Trump International Scotland
The 14th hole swoops spectacularly through the dunes but is awkwardly greener and softer than classic Scottish links.


Balmedie, Scotland

Donald Trump's new golf course here, described by no less an authority than Trump himself as the greatest in the world, is indeed a very fine course. It flows like a river through a fantastically tall stretch of grassy dunes on the North Sea coast, 10 miles north of Aberdeen. With 110 separate tee boxes—a world record?—it plays at 7,428 yards from the tips, making it entirely suitable for a big-deal tournament. Trump suggests the British Open. The holes, which opened for play last fall, are well-designed and picturesque, with steep-faced Scottish pot bunkers pocking the fairways and open approaches to most of the greens, ideal for the low-running shots essential to links golf.

Why, then, did Trump International Golf Links-Scotland leave me a bit cold?

Part of it, possibly, was all I'd heard about how the sausage was made. Even more than most Trump projects, this one has been embroiled in controversy from the start. Trump obtained development rights for a small part of a contiguous nature preserve, which outraged environmentalists. He antagonized some of his neighbors by building berms, then planting trees, to block the views both of and from their houses. The British press, never fond of American hubris, hasn't been kind. During my visit two weeks ago, the BBC aired a "60 Minutes"-style investigation of the jobs and investments Trump promised, but is said to have yet to deliver, and his once-cozy, now estranged relationship with Alex Salmond, Scotland's first minister. The Trump Organization refutes some of the facts in the BBC program.

But I write about golf, not politics, and even if this kerfuffle did somehow color my view of the project, my primary reservations were golf-ish. The fairways aren't yet mature, so they play as soft as many parkland or American courses. Balls don't bound like they are supposed to on links courses. They are also greener than normal for links, thanks to the rye grass mixed in with the traditional fescue strains. Other little touches also seemed out of place, like the lushly grassed walkways between holes and the ornate Trump coat of arms on every sign.

I also had a few quibbles with the design, the work of Martin Hawtree, a third-generation English golf architect. I didn't love having to tromp up the side of a dune to tee off on almost every hole, and then tromp back down again. The holes run through the dunes, but many could be anywhere—they aren't always of the dunes.

But mostly, if I'm honest—and this may just be me—my main issue is that Trump International isn't a quirky little ancient links. Sue me for saying so, but one of the main joys of playing golf in Scotland is to escape the American-style obsession with trying to make everything perfect as possible.

For example, the day after I played Trump, I teed off at Cruden Bay, 14 miles north. Golf has been played on the dunes and headlands there for more than two centuries. Old Tom Morris, the guiding spirit at St. Andrews until his death in 1908, first laid out the current course.

Although watered when necessary, the fairways and greens were both rock-hard and running. Holes climbed and twisted according to where the land led. There are holes through the dunes, holes along a high promontory with sweeping views of forever, and a blind par three that is also somehow a dogleg. Given the same property today, no developer would come up with Cruden Bay. He would insist on more land—the course only plays to 6,287 yards from the back tees, par 70—and bring in the bulldozers. But you would be hard pressed to find a more fun course to play than Cruden Bay.

Across Scotland, there are scores of other courses like that, such as Nairn, Royal Dornoch, Dunbar, Gullane and North Berwick, to name just ones I am familiar with. A huge part of their charm lies in the old villages that surround them, and knowing that, whatever the greens fees are for visitors ($100 or more), the locals join for $500 or $800 a year, because golf in Scotland isn't meant to be fancy. Typically you stay on your trip in small mom-and-pop hotels with breakfast included and spend the evenings after golf with your friends, both the ones you brought with you and ones you make there, throwing darts in a crowded pub. This isn't the American way of golf, where almost all the great courses are private.

This isn't to say that modern links courses in Scotland can't be terrific. Or that lots of earth-moving is necessarily a crime. Kingsbarns, not far from St. Andrews, opened in 2000 but looks like it has been there for centuries. Since the site was originally mostly flat farmland, it took a lot of work to create that effect. Crews bulldozed most of the distinctive dunes, knolls and dales into existence and trucked in worlds of sand as a base for the quick-draining fairways that now play as firm and fast as any.

Castle Stuart, where Phil Mickelson won the Scottish Open the week before claiming the British Open at Muirfield, is only four years old and was developed by the same American, Mark Parsinen, who built Kingsbarns. The private Renaissance Club, a natural-feeling Tom Doak design adjacent to Muirfield, is also a new American-backed project.

Trump's course, with time, could be the best of the new ones—and he is building a second that could open in 2016, pending approvals and good weather. The day after my round at the first course, John Bambury, the superintendent, took me out to see the dunes in their natural state where part of the second course will be routed.

In the low-lying parts, erosion-control fences put up last fall were already covered in sand. "The dunes here are mobile," Bambury said. "That's why before we built the first course, people said it would blow away." But it didn't because workers stabilized the dunes, once the design had been completed, by transplanting 11.5 million marram plants, one at a time, by hand, from nearby dunes. "There was a lot of turnover among those workers," he noted. Marram is a tall indigenous coastal grass.

That is the kind of effort, and money, it takes to make Trump International work, and it explains in part the $325 weekend green fees, discounted for locals to $265. I'll look forward to playing Trump again on a future visit, and the second course. But only if there is time after I've revisited Cruden Bay.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #660 on: July 30, 2013, 10:24:14 AM »
Wait.  110 tee boxes?!!!!! 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #661 on: July 30, 2013, 01:45:58 PM »
That's why the area is called "moving dunes" it was a constantly changing landscape.
Cave Nil Vino

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #662 on: September 20, 2013, 03:16:00 AM »
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 03:20:41 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #663 on: September 20, 2013, 03:21:10 AM »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #664 on: September 20, 2013, 04:29:33 AM »
You know - many people have had a go on here at the 18th for being over bunkered (there are 18 in total).... But combine those first two together to give a large diagonal bunker and vary the shapes / sizes of a few nearer the green and I think the hole would look really well. More to the point, I thought it played really well. The bunkers governed choices - isn't that what we all like?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #665 on: September 20, 2013, 04:37:36 AM »
You know - many people have had a go on here at the 18th for being over bunkered (there are 18 in total).... But combine those first two together to give a large diagonal bunker and vary the shapes / sizes of a few nearer the green and I think the hole would look really well. More to the point, I thought it played really well. The bunkers governed choices - isn't that what we all like?

Ally

Its not only the bunkers.

I think the mega bunkering is too similar in look to a few other par 5s. The length of the hole is overbearing.  The second & third play uphill, often into wind.  After that slog one is not even close to the house.  IMO, something has gone badly amiss for daily play.  I can, however, see that this setup fits into holding a large event with stands to the rear of the green.



Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #666 on: September 20, 2013, 05:06:13 AM »
You know - many people have had a go on here at the 18th for being over bunkered (there are 18 in total).... But combine those first two together to give a large diagonal bunker and vary the shapes / sizes of a few nearer the green and I think the hole would look really well. More to the point, I thought it played really well. The bunkers governed choices - isn't that what we all like?

Ally

Its not only the bunkers.

I think the mega bunkering is too similar in look to a few other par 5s. The length of the hole is overbearing.  The second & third play uphill, often into wind.  After that slog one is not even close to the house.  IMO, something has gone badly amiss for daily play.  I can, however, see that this setup fits into holding a large event with stands to the rear of the green.



Ciao

Sean, it may have felt uphill but that hole is built on the flats (I think?). I agree about the bunkering versus the look on hole 4 for instance. But I'd change 4 before 18 in that respect.

A long par-5 is no bad way to finish. And it really doesn't finish that far from the clubhouse. I think you are being a little harsh.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #667 on: September 20, 2013, 05:35:46 AM »
I am sure the 34 approaches are uphill  ;).  If I am correct about the house being over where the marquee now stands (above the putting green), then its quite a way.  Even from the temp house the course is oddly detached - one just sees golfers walking by.  I don't care for this setup in the least.  I like the house to be connected to the course, making the 19th hole a reality - tee hee.

That said, I do admit to usually not liking real three shot par 5s - especially those which can often require 3 woods.  I can't really see how that yardage helps make this hole in anyway special for the handicap player, especially as the last hole on what is a tough course to play and walk.  Its quite rare for me to dislike a hole, but no question for me #18 is one hole I can say a do not like.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #668 on: September 20, 2013, 10:37:24 AM »
Interesting offer on 13th Oct highlighted by Brian above - £49 for a seniors event at TI. I wonder what the prices are for other seniors events in NE Scotland?

Shame the junior event, even though it's cheaper, isn't for 18-holes. 9-holes seems a bit mean, especially when it says in the small print that it's for juniors of 16 and under when most junior events are 18 and under. Are they really trying to encourage juniors or just doing a bit of PR?

All the best.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #669 on: September 20, 2013, 10:41:43 AM »
Shame the junior event, even though it's cheaper, isn't for 18-holes. 9-holes seems a bit mean, especially when it says in the small print that it's for juniors of 16 and under when most junior events are 18 and under. Are they really trying to encourage juniors or just doing a bit of PR?
Great points.  I'm afraid I looked at that, initially thought it was great and was on the verge of asking my 17 year old son if he was interested and then read the small print.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #670 on: September 20, 2013, 12:07:47 PM »
Thanks, Brian (and Thomas)

That offer hit my price point right in the omphalos!  I shall report back after my game.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #671 on: September 20, 2013, 01:33:12 PM »
There's another Trump Aberdeen offer where it's £75 for local residents and £125 for others in October and November.

See - http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=335964&ssid=234105&vnf=1

Not much point in playing on 30th Sept then!

All the best.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #672 on: September 20, 2013, 02:59:08 PM »
Ally

Having seen the course a few times now (though admittedly not played it) I think the course could comfortably lose half its bunkers and be better for it. Commenting on one of your points, 18 would be improved by losing two of the first four bunkers. Also like Carnoustie, a little more variety in the shape would make them a little easier on the eye.

Jon

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #673 on: September 21, 2013, 11:35:07 AM »
Agree with Jon. Lose a bunch of bunkers and try and bring some variety into the shape of the remaining ones. With regards the 18th, I played it off the top deck tee where you have no real perception of distance or idea of how the wind will move the ball at that height. I suspect it would be a much better hole with the tee lower down but then you wouldn't get the scenic view which I suspect was what mainly mattered for the client.

Niall

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #674 on: September 22, 2013, 02:05:15 PM »
I look at this thread and the one of Ballyneal, and for me its no comparrison, not even close, how the courses fit the landscape... Some much more naturalness, little quirck and greatness in a sleepy corner of Colorado.....

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