[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

hope you are doing well. The article looks more like a general advertising piece than a serious piece of journalism. I guess it is aimed at the US market as the magazine does not appear on the newsagent's shelves here in Scotland.

Ally,

They maybe amongst the largest dunes with a golf course running through them but that is not what was claimed. I see Donald's biggest fan is backing you though, rara skirt, pompoms and all

Jon

[Paul Gray]

Reading it again, you have to love this bit:

.....so being voted No 1 is a great honour for Aberdeen and Scotland......

So nice of Trump to explain that to the people of Aberdeen and Scotland.

If, as I'm trying oh-so-hard to do, you can get past the urge to punch the man (sue me), he does offer excellent comedic value.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mike,

hope you are doing well. The article looks more like a general advertising piece than a serious piece of journalism. I guess it is aimed at the US market as the magazine does not appear on the newsagent's shelves here in Scotland.

Ally,

They maybe amongst the largest dunes with a golf course running through them but that is not what was claimed. I see Donald's biggest fan is backing you though, rara skirt, pompoms and all

Jon

Ah but Jon - the biggest dunes I know all have golf courses running through them

[Paul Gray]

"......because we built it on the largest dunes on the world......".

Word by painful word it is then.

The Taklamakan Desert in China is reputed to have the largest dune systems in the World although, depending on how you measure, this fact is disputed. For sheer height, Mt Tempest gets a shout at 280 metres.



I trust the picture alone should be enough to clarify the stupidity of the "largest dunes on the world" quote.


 

[Jason Thurman]

Assuming the goal is factual accuracy, it's a stupid quote.

I don't think the goal is factual accuracy. And I don't think there's anything stupid about the quote. In fact, I think today's responses on GCA prove that it's not a stupid quote at all.

[Paul Gray]

Assuming the goal is factual accuracy, it's a stupid quote.

I don't think the goal is factual accuracy. And I don't think there's anything stupid about the quote. In fact, I think today's responses on GCA prove that it's not a stupid quote at all.

The last thing I would ever dream of accusing Donald Trump of would be factual accuracy, perceived or otherwise.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally,

These fellows are so hung up on "The Donald" that they parse and pounce on his every word.

What a waste of time.

The man is known as a promoter and known to use hyperbole.

So Paul Gray has found a larger dune in China ...................... now what ?

The "Donald" is building a second course, which many said he'd never do, and he's fighting to prevent giant turbines from tainting the view.  What developer wishing to build homes and a hotel at a golf resort wouldn't want to fight the introduction of giant turbines ?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I was thinking more along the lines of established coastal dunes - the type golf is usually played upon. Maybe Trump was as well...

Either way, it's marketing.... I happen to think that there is at least one golf course with a bigger (in terms of vertical) dune system and despite my being at the opposite end of the scale to Trump with regards to self-publicising, my quotes won't be that different in this instance...

[Brian_Ewen]

These fellows are so hung up on "The Donald" that they parse and pounce on his every word.

Says the person that has threadfucked each and every time it has been turned back to discussing the course   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I think your memory is failing, others attacked the "Donald" while I focused on the product he was producing, the "course"

How did his golf course turn out ?

1.    Poor
2.    Mediocre
3.    Good
4.    Great

He said he would produce a great course and he did, placing egg all over your faces.

Now, he says he'll produce a good course.

What's wrong with that ?

Why do you object to the creation of two very good golf courses ?

[Paul Gray]

Why do you object to the creation of two very good golf courses ?

With that quote Pat you're in no position to question anybody else's memory.

Perhaps you should reread the entire thread!

And as for your claim that you've focused on the product, you've endlessly defended the man as an individual.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why do you object to the creation of two very good golf courses ?

With that quote Pat you're in no position to question anybody else's memory.

Perhaps you should reread the entire thread!

And as for your claim that you've focused on the product, you've endlessly defended the man as an individual.

Paul,

If you'll reread the thread I think you'll see that it was you and your fellow morons that diverted the thread from the golf course to "The Donald", not me.

As to defending him, had you not diverted the thread and attacked him, there'd be no reason for me to chime in.

[Paul Gray]

So you simultaneously managed to stick to discussing the course whilst defending the individual. Impressive.  

[Niall C]

Sorry Patrick, your last post to Brian has got me confused, easily done I know, but is Balmedie a great course or just a very good one ? Also how do you know if you haven't seen it yourself 

Niall

[Mark_F]

Trump may be the epitome of the bombastic blowhard American, but on further development at Trump Scotland he is spot on.  Those wind farms dotted around the UK are ghastly beyond belief.  It defies belief that anyone wouldn't fight to stop them being built in full view of an expensive property development. 

Maybe Trump should buy The Sun and back Cameron.  That usually gets results.

[Jon Wiggett]

Maybe Trump should buy The Sun and back Cameron.  That usually gets results.

You must be living south of the border

[Mark_F]

You must be living south of the border

A long way South, Jon...

[Brian_Ewen]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/trump-golf-course-damaging-environment-claims-rspb.21425182

Trump golf course damaging environment, claims RSPB
Tuesday 25 June 2013
Donald Trump's controversial Scottish golf course has been criticised in a new report by the RSPB for damaging the environment.

The wildlife charity's State of the Nature report, launched by naturalist and TV presenter Sir David Attenborough, singled out Trump International Golf Links at the Menie Estae, Aberdeenshire, for harming nature in the area.

The development has been criticised for its impact on the Foveran Links, a local Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI).

Aedán Smith, head of planning and development at the RSPB, said the area was one of very few specialist environments north of the Border for scientific research.

The report, written by 25 wildlife organisations found 60% of species studied, declined over recent decades and one in 10 species is under threat of disappearing from our shores.

It said: "Sand dunes and shingle areas have little value for agriculture, but are prime sites for tourist developments.

"Such developments often result in the loss of rare invertebrates, lichens and the rich orchid populations of wet sun slacks.

"What wildlife does survive is often left marooned on dune islands in a sea of development. Building work also interferes with the dynamics of dune systems."

The Trump International course near Balmedie was singled out in the report, because part of it was built on the Foveran Links SSSI.

The report said: "In recent years, damaging developments have been given the green light at Sovereign Harbour in East Sussex, Foveran Links SSSI Aberdeenshire and Carlyon Bay in Cornwall."

Trump's executive vice-president, George Sorial, said: "To date we are the only ones that have studied, preserved and actively managed that site, threatened by years of shooting birds, erosion and ongoing urban pressure.

"The dunes have now been preserved for generations to enjoy with 95% of the SSSI untouched.

"The RSPB should spend some time studying the facts and should actually visit the site before publishing such nonsense and fiction."

[Ally Mcintosh]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/trump-golf-course-damaging-environment-claims-rspb.21425182

Trump golf course damaging environment, claims RSPB
Tuesday 25 June 2013
Donald Trump's controversial Scottish golf course has been criticised in a new report by the RSPB for damaging the environment.

The wildlife charity's State of the Nature report, launched by naturalist and TV presenter Sir David Attenborough, singled out Trump International Golf Links at the Menie Estae, Aberdeenshire, for harming nature in the area.

The development has been criticised for its impact on the Foveran Links, a local Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI).

Aedán Smith, head of planning and development at the RSPB, said the area was one of very few specialist environments north of the Border for scientific research.

The report, written by 25 wildlife organisations found 60% of species studied, declined over recent decades and one in 10 species is under threat of disappearing from our shores.

It said: "Sand dunes and shingle areas have little value for agriculture, but are prime sites for tourist developments.

"Such developments often result in the loss of rare invertebrates, lichens and the rich orchid populations of wet sun slacks.

"What wildlife does survive is often left marooned on dune islands in a sea of development. Building work also interferes with the dynamics of dune systems."

The Trump International course near Balmedie was singled out in the report, because part of it was built on the Foveran Links SSSI.

The report said: "In recent years, damaging developments have been given the green light at Sovereign Harbour in East Sussex, Foveran Links SSSI Aberdeenshire and Carlyon Bay in Cornwall."

Trump's executive vice-president, George Sorial, said: "To date we are the only ones that have studied, preserved and actively managed that site, threatened by years of shooting birds, erosion and ongoing urban pressure.

"The dunes have now been preserved for generations to enjoy with 95% of the SSSI untouched.

"The RSPB should spend some time studying the facts and should actually visit the site before publishing such nonsense and fiction."

I'm afraid I agree with George Sorial here.

Until the RSPB or any other body actually presents facts that show that flora and fauna have decreased from before to after development of the golf course then it is merely conjecture and playing on the popular belief. Give the facts.

Given the rather heavy intervention, I wouldn't be surprised if there has been negative impact... But remember the snails at Doonbeg if you want to see the opposite...

[Niall C]

Ally

Lets study what Mr Soriel had to say before we start slagging off the RSPB.

George Sorial, said: "To date we are the only ones that have studied, preserved and actively managed that site, threatened by years of shooting birds, erosion and ongoing urban pressure. The dunes have now been preserved for generations to enjoy with 95% of the SSSI untouched."

Point 1 - Trump Org the only ones to have studied this site. Really ? I presume this was in relation to their planning application where they would have been required to produce a habitat and wildlife report which in turn would have had gone to SNH, RSPB and others for consultation who I think I'm right in saying undertook their own studies through Mike Wood. Even if what they did was a limited evaluation of Trumps report, lets not forget this site would have been evaluated and monitored as a SSSI so to claim they were the only ones to have studied the site requires the reader to take a pinch of salt.

Point 2 - "we are the only ones to have....preserved....that site" - When you think about it thats an astonishing claim to make when you consider what they've done already let alone what they plan in terms of the hotel and housing development. That requires more than a pinch of salt, a suspension of disbelief would be more like it.

Point 3 - "we are the only ones to have.....managed..that site" Can't argue with that. They are the only ones to have commercialised and restricted access to a natural landscape, or rather what was a natural landscape.

Point 4 - "that site, threatened by years of shooting birds, erosion and ongoing urban pressure" - has anyone ever documented this shooting problem or is it just more anecdotal fluff ? How does it threaten the site any more than running amok with bulldozers ? However lets cut Mr Soriel a little slack here and say he is correct in his assertion of the guntoting locals problem. He's also correct about the erosion "problem". What was previously a wonder of nature ie. shifting sand dune system, has now been destroyed. Well done George  . I also note he plans to cure the danger of "urban pressure" by............building a hotel and a shit load of houses ! Marvellous, maybe he should change his name to George Orwell.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hold your horses there, Mr.Carlton,

I was merely pointing out that this news story has nothing to do with what may or may not have happened at Balmedie. Since it wasn't reported, I am assuming The RSPB paper did not show scientific evaluation of before and after bird species at Menie. It did give generalisations which may well apply to this site. But lets see the exact data that proves this development has been bad for the environment before jumping on every news story that damns it.

In that respect (and that respect only) I agree with Mr.Soriel

[Niall C]

Ally

Whether or not the RSPB have been back to quantify the damage to wildlife and habitat resulting from the Balmedie development doesn't undermine the general point being made or make the assumption that the development has overall been detrimental to wildlife and habitat given experience elsewhere a wrong one. Its stating the bleedin obvious really. George Soriel is doing his job, I appreciate that, but what he says is nonsense.

I also note that the piece came from the Herald which long ago gave up on journalism and now seem to routinely print PR unedited. Given the way this one has been topped and tailed it wouldn't surprise me if it came from the Trump Org, after all to some there's no type of publicity thats bad publicity.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Whether or not the RSPB have been back to quantify the damage to wildlife and habitat resulting from the Balmedie development doesn't undermine the general point being made or make the assumption that the development has overall been detrimental to wildlife and habitat given experience elsewhere a wrong one. Its stating the bleedin obvious really. George Soriel is doing his job, I appreciate that, but what he says is nonsense.

I also note that the piece came from the Herald which long ago gave up on journalism and now seem to routinely print PR unedited. Given the way this one has been topped and tailed it wouldn't surprise me if it came from the Trump Org, after all to some there's no type of publicity thats bad publicity.

Niall

Niall - Doonbeg almost didn't get permitting on the back of a snail which has multiplied x 60 since. Don't make assumptions until the proof is presented.

That said, there was a heavy handed approach to the environmental sensitivities at Balmedie, that is without question.

Agreed on the journalism.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

there are plenty of study information about this site so don't think you can accuse the RSPB of not having any. Your assumption that they have no information seems to be based on the word of a vested interest that are well known to spin, hype and maybe even ...... That there is not a report out about the effects is probably to do with the fact that the course is still young and such reports take time to be done.

The RSPB and other similar bodies have a right and duty to warn of possible problems and damage if they believe it to be occurring or even possibly occurring. It would however be better if both parties could talk to each other but hell will probably freeze over first as the one side thinks the other is the devil incarnate and the other side thinks it has the god given right to do what it wants.

At Doonbeg didn't they have to alter the routing to avoid said snails?

Niall,

there is no restriction to you wandering over the course as long as you do no damage and do not interfere with play.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon,

I wasn't basing my opinion on what the Trump Organisation said... I was basing it on the press release / article that didn't seem to present any "after" study from the RSPB on this site... There was certainly plenty of "before" and also I am sure decent modelling to predict what might happen... But no actual facts as of yet....

The Doonbeg routing was changed because of the snail. I believe there are more of them now both in the untouched land and the land used for golf...

I agree there seems to be no room for middle ground with either Trump or certain environmental organisations. As for the reporting, most articles seem unable or unwilling to actually dig beyond a press release as Niall said earlier.

Ally

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