Trump International Golf Links

[Chris DeNigris]

Niall,

Here is the link to the report. It's very informative.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/212607/0067709.pdf

Let me know what you think.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

With all due respect- You're wrong. And just a little condescending as well.

As I have suggested to you and others with an interest in this several times before- please read the very detailed and informative Report to Scottish Ministers. Granted, it's 295 pages but unlike most of what you and several others have consistently and erroneously put out as fact- it actually provides all the background information, references, supporting detail and all the varying points of view from all the involved parties.

I'm not really a Trump-lover. I agree with Adam that there's a whole host of valid reasons why some folks are less than enamored with the man, myth and legend that is DT.

I just don't like propaganda and mis-information. Read the Report- if you're going to be so opinionated on the subject you should at least base your opinions on something factual. It's something you should make some time for.

Chris

I have been wrong many times in my life.  Care to suggest exactly where I am wrong in my last statement?

Ciao

[Chris DeNigris]

Sean,

With all due respect- You're wrong. And just a little condescending as well.

As I have suggested to you and others with an interest in this several times before- please read the very detailed and informative Report to Scottish Ministers. Granted, it's 295 pages but unlike most of what you and several others have consistently and erroneously put out as fact- it actually provides all the background information, references, supporting detail and all the varying points of view from all the involved parties.

I'm not really a Trump-lover. I agree with Adam that there's a whole host of valid reasons why some folks are less than enamored with the man, myth and legend that is DT.

I just don't like propaganda and mis-information. Read the Report- if you're going to be so opinionated on the subject you should at least base your opinions on something factual. It's something you should make some time for.

Chris

I have been wrong many times in my life.  Care to suggest exactly where I am wrong in my last statement?

Ciao

Sean,

Please read the report. It will hopefully then be clear to you where you and many others have been mistaken. We can then discuss what's in the actual report if you'd like.

[Jud_T]

I'll happily read the report after I finish all 1.2 million words of L. Ron Hubbard's Mission Earth...

[Sean_A]

Sean,

With all due respect- You're wrong. And just a little condescending as well.

As I have suggested to you and others with an interest in this several times before- please read the very detailed and informative Report to Scottish Ministers. Granted, it's 295 pages but unlike most of what you and several others have consistently and erroneously put out as fact- it actually provides all the background information, references, supporting detail and all the varying points of view from all the involved parties.

I'm not really a Trump-lover. I agree with Adam that there's a whole host of valid reasons why some folks are less than enamored with the man, myth and legend that is DT.

I just don't like propaganda and mis-information. Read the Report- if you're going to be so opinionated on the subject you should at least base your opinions on something factual. It's something you should make some time for.

Chris

I have been wrong many times in my life.  Care to suggest exactly where I am wrong in my last statement?

Ciao

Sean,

Please read the report. It will hopefully then be clear to you where you and many others have been mistaken. We can then discuss what's in the actual report if you'd like.

Chris

I have perused the report at an earlier date.  I cannot see where you are making your point.  I am not terribly interested in the report as an entire document.  While I was very much against this development, at the end of the day, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me.  As I have said all along, I am far more interested in the process.  It is quite clear what took place. It is a different matter if you choose to acknowledge the short-comings of the decision-making process. 

It is tough to not be sarcastic with a guy who states someone is wrong, refuses to cite why and instead insists a report be read.   

1. The Infrastructure Comm rejected outline planning for the Trump project.  That Comm legally represented Aberdeenshire Co Council and that decision could not be overturned by same said Council.  The fact that the ACC later reversed their decision has no bearing in law on the matter and no bearing on the final recommendations made by the Planning Inspectorate - and rightfully so. 

2. The application was called in by the Scottish Government in the nick of time.

3. The Scottish Gov't who were always in favour of the development and publicly stated as much of course followed the recommendations of its Planning Directorate. 

4. It is my belief that if the Scottish Gov't wanted this project to be approved it should have taken control of it from step 1.  A lot of grief for local cllrs could have been avoided.  I understand that the gov't wanted this to be seen as local decision-making, but in the end it wasn't anything of the kind.  Its a great pity the planning process and environmental protections were not supported, but that is how big business works. 

Only time will tell if the over-riding national, regional and local economic impact will justify the decision.   

Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

One thing intrigues me though, I know that some here have played the course but has anyone played Trump Aberdeen yet who has actually paid for the experience out of their own pocket - ie no freebee's?

Yes.

[Thomas Dai]

Well that's 1 very honest person - thanks B for responding - who's admitted topaying out of his own pocket to play Trump Aberdeen.

Anyone else?

Roughly £10 per hole.

All the best

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thomas I spoken with 4 who played it gratis and they all thought it was a seriously good course.


There's more with a ride booked on the gravy train this summer!

[Simon Holt]

I've played twice with a member who kindly paid my fees and I took care of the caddies.  Normal practise when I am hosted somewhere with guys who take caddies. 

Point being, someone picked up the tab that wasn't within the organisation itself.  I thought it was very, very good and have pointed out why earlier in the thread.  Not perfect by any means but a solid start.  There were 2 other friends of mine who are members of the R&A and HCEG.  They too thought it was an excellent start for Trump International.  Not that being members of those clubs makes them world authorities but they play at decent courses often enough to know what they are looking at.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bottom line for me is this:

1. In principle, I wasn’t entirely against the course getting permitting although I did think that it could have been routed away from the more sensitive areas and I did think that it could have been designed / built with less disruption to the natural order of things.

2. I thought the course to be very, very good. Given an open hand, I’d have done a few things differently myself but can’t one say that about almost all courses.

3. I was very much against the large hotel / apartment / villa style development that was to go with the course also getting permitting. To that extent, I’m happy that the course got to open as a stand-alone so that it can live and breathe by itself for a while. And I’m happy that the proposed hotel has been scaled down.

4. The permitting process appeared to be handled badly but it’s only because it is so high profile and by such a high profile developer that we are talking about it so much. Bad planning decisions get approved ALL the time, some a lot more ridiculous than this particular one.

5. I wish he’d named it Balmedie Golf links. One simple gesture that could make a world of difference in the short, medium and long-term.

And really, that is it. The rest is just noise as far as I’m concerned.

[Niall C]

Niall,

Here is the link to the report. It's very informative.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/212607/0067709.pdf

Let me know what you think.

Thanks Chris, from a quick scan of the first few pages I note its the Reporters report on their decision. I'm under the cosh tonight on other matters but will look at it over the next few days. In the meantime I note that Trumps reasoning for the hotel/housing element was that was needed to pay for the golf course(s). That being so, seems strange they went ahead with the course first and are now threatening not to go ahead with the hotel/housing, some might say suspiciously so  .

One other quick comment re the point of Mr Milne's petition, in my experience it is unusual for the government to call-in planning applications and even then it is usually for planning applications of national significance often involving infrastructure projects. I note that the report doesn't give a reason/justification for calling-in the application but in hindsight its hard to justify this action with regards to the planning process. I should also add that I can not recall one single incidence where the government called-in an application when the local authority was at the point of turning it down, as happened here. It may have happened before but I'm not aware of it.

All in all I back Mr Milne's call for an enquiry, not out of any ant-Trump sentiment (I've paid money to play the course) but because it would appear on the surface at least that the conduct of the elected politicians of this country has been less than what you would hope for.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Any members of Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen know how your numbers are stacking up? I'm interested to know if Trump Scotland is bringing more business to the area or spreading the existing trade thinner.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Any members of Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen know how your numbers are stacking up? I'm interested to know if Trump Scotland is bringing more business to the area or spreading the existing trade thinner.

I'd be interested to know this too... But I do think we have to give it time... A second course and a decent hotel really should make this area a proper attraction for visiting golfers

[Thomas Dai]

Time will tell but if I were to crystal ball it now I'd reckon that ordinary memberships at RA, CB and also at Murcar wouldn't be much effected at all except for maybe those few whose sub's are paid for by their employers expense account, who might transfer to TI.

Income from visitors particularly those on organised trips - "don't play RA or CB, play TI instead, it's new and it's great" - is likely to decline I would suggest, although not sure by how much and for how long.

One area where I reckon income for the other clubs nearby will be hit will be income from oil industry contractor freebee golf day events where TI should, for a while only maybe, have a bit of a hoover effect in sucking up this kind of outing at the expense of the other clubs in the area.

"I wish he’d named it Balmedie Golf links. One simple gesture that could make a world of difference in the short, medium and long-term." Good call Ally. I reckon they've missed a trick there.

All the best

[Mark Chaplin]

Thomas I cannot imagine anyone leaving a top private club for a pay and play semi-private. It's more the outside income I'm interested in.

[Ally Mcintosh]

My guess is that over time (and all other things equal), the outlook for Royal Aberdeen and Cruden Bay is:

1. Memberships at RA and CB won't be affected
2. Outside visitor play should increase from overseas and from down south as Aberdeen becomes a golf destination
3. Local visitor / society / corporate play may decrease slightly.

[Jud_T]

I would have to think Trump has to be a net positive for places like Cruden Bay.  Guys like us who would have made the trek up to play CB before will still do so and folks who wouldn't have before might be tempted to add it on to their itinerary when going to play Trump.  Can't imagine many locals dumping their Cruden Bay membership for regular rounds at Trump given the cost differential.

[Jim Nelson]

I am one of those crazy guys who paid to play and for the record, I'm a rater. 

Regarding CB and RA members playing at Trump on a regular basis, I highly doubt that.  I played both last summer, loved them both (CB over RA) and wouldn't spend much time at Trump if I was a member at either.  Here's where I go into the club vs course rant.  There are plenty of good courses but it is hard to put together a good club.  Once you have it, you know it and hate it leave.  The people make the club, the camaraderie, the belonging to an organization where you can play the game you love with great friends.  Doubt that would happen at Trump. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Jim you are quite right, I'm sure most of the locals will pay it once when a deal comes along, however it is extremely difficult to create a great club. The one thing cash cannot create is history, walking around old clubs provide a treasure trove of history.

[Jim Nelson]

Jim you are quite right, I'm sure most of the locals will pay it once when a deal comes along, however it is extremely difficult to create a great club. The one thing cash cannot create is history, walking around old clubs provide a treasure trove of history.

I still remember hitting my ball from the side of the Viking burial mound at Cruden Bay.  Didn't work out too well for me.  Curse of the Viking Burial Mound...?  just saying.  Talk about history.

[Steve Lapper]

The obvious questions that has the obvious answer(s) is:

Q: Was Aberdeenshire a "destination" for demographically desirable foreign golfers pre-Trump?

A: I don't believe so, though there is no doubt many passed through with a desire to play Royal Aberdeen & Cruden Bay

Q2: Can it now be considered a "destination" for such aforementioned golfers?

A2: I'd speculate so, but the very best data would belong to the innkeepers, travel providers and tee sheets of the respective venues.


My personal opinion is that this leads a reasonable man to conclude that the addition of Trump Scotland will be a net positive to the golf tourism business in the sub-region....end of story!

[Thomas Dai]

Mark,

I very much concur with your point "that it is extremely difficult to create a great club. The one thing cash cannot create is history, walking around old clubs provide a treasure trove of history" and thus I also don't see what I might vaguely term your traditional club member moving from RA, CB or M to TI.

However, as to your comment that "I cannot imagine anyone leaving a top private club for a pay and play semi-private", well in usual circumstances I would happily concur with you. However, Oil City UK is not a usual UK town, the industry and economy operates on a different pattern to the rest of the UK, it's a more transient area, the expat ratio is higher and some (lucky!?) people in sales/marketing/business development/senior management kinda jobs in oil service and contracting companies get their golf club subscriptions paid for them by their employers - as one aspect of their jobs these individuals then organise golf company days for client reps etc. I am not sure if RA, CB or M do corporate memberships but I am aware of some firms in Oil City UK who have corporate membership at places like Gleneagles. I can see some of these (maybe) switching their corporate memberships to TI. Not loads of transfers, maybe just a few.

All the best.

[Mark Chaplin]

Steve,

I'm not convinced that Trump or any other course grows the market, I'd be very interested to see the figures across Scotland. A big opening such as Trump or Castle Stuart no doubt brings in more business to the area, but is it additional business to Scotland or does Fife or Ayrshire or East Lothian suffer a corresponding loss of trade?

On saying that RCP and Number One B&B would be delighted to pinch a little trade from Scotland or Ireland!

Mark

[Jon Wiggett]

Well it looks like the end of Aberdeen, Scotland and maybe the world as we know it is nigh!!!!

Is this sound energy policy, saving the climate or just 'Wee Eck's' revenge for been hung out to dry by Mr Trump?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-21938247

Jon

[Niall C]

Jon

I'm sure that living in Scotland that you are well aware the committment that the SNP have made with regards to renewables, add to that that this development wasn't just a wind farm but also a research facility, and there was no chance that it was ever going to be refused. That said, I suspect that wee Eck will be taking some pleasure at noising up his former best pal.

Niall