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Sean Leary

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Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2012, 06:07:33 PM »
What if the name was Mike Keiser International Golf Links? 

Any changes of opinion?

But of course that is impossible. Mike Keiser works with the environment and the local people, not against it as was done here.


I think course would likely never have been built had Trump tried to work with the people and the environment.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2012, 06:34:48 PM »

I'm not suggesting good caddie programs aren't good... I'm just suggesting that they should have nothing to do with whether you think a golf course (not ancillaries) are good...

Ally

Ally:

I will say that I think all the courses at Bandon Dunes are rated higher and more successful financially because there are no golf carts out there distracting from the golf ... I think it is the absence of carts more than the caddies which make it special, because lots of people do walk without a caddie, too. 

However, I agree with you that the caddie program itself should have little to no effect on how highly someone rates the golf course.  Kris is becoming as single-issue driven as Melvyn ... he needs to get back on his meds.

On the other hand, I know that the issue of lost-ball rough can and will be improved over time, but you can't really think that it's a good thing that all the reviews of the course so far have featured lost ball counts, can you?

I do agree that no (or few) carts equals a better experience... I guess us British just don't equate no carts with taking a caddie... Maybe that's a breakdown between what Kris is trying to say and my understanding...

I also agree that's it's not a good thing that people are coming in with horrendous lost ball counts (although Mark was playing a texas scramble where the tendency is just to move on)... In an ideal world, the marram would have been trampled down, fully stabilised and mown back a little by opening... They did rush to open so that may be part of it... The course also seems to have fairly steep dunes with sharp transitions to the fairway areas. This will have made it more difficult to transition the rough gradually also I'm sure... Sometimes with these deep dune valleys, there's little you can do other than take the width as it comes... But that doesn't mean that many of these things won't be (and weren't always intended to be) ironed out over the first few years of play... I think that aspect is getting a hard time from people looking mainly at photographs which incidentally have no sense of the giant scale to them...

I hate lost balls as much as the next man... But I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt... It's not as if it will have been a deliberate choice on the part of the designers(at least I hope not)...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2012, 07:47:48 PM »
Understood about the width of the corridors between the dunes ... you can only take what you're given, unless you tear down a dune completely.

It does seem from Mark's photos that a lot of the greens are pushed all the way back in the pocket at the end of the valleys, so that the long grass is pretty close behind the green and/or on the sides.  I haven't heard anyone say whether they were losing balls around the greens, but you never want to see that.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2012, 12:10:04 AM »
Is "dune whore" the new catchphrase?

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2012, 04:20:03 AM »
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/332934

TRUMP’S COURSE ‘WILL BE SWALLOWED BY SEA’
Sunday July 15,2012
By Greg Christison

DONALD Trump's multi-million pound golf course is in danger of disappearing into the North Sea within a matter of years, environmental experts warned yesterday.

Coastal erosion - which has already forced the tycoon to fork out for emergency repairs to his third green - could see parts of the Trump International Golf Links vanish beneath the waves.

And it has also been suggested strong south-easterly winds could cause chaos on the links, dumping "tonnes" of sand across the fairways.

The astonishing claims come as the Aberdeenshire course, which the American mogul claims is the "world's greatest", prepares to open its doors to the public today.

Trump, 66, who hit the first shot on his 7,400-yard course on Tuesday during its official opening, has taken several preventative steps to protect his land.

Since purchasing the Menie Estate, he has constructed a 250-metre defence system designed to slow erosion around the third hole.

He has also planted Marram grass in an attempt to stabilize a stretch of sand dunes - once considered a special site of scientific interest (SSSI) - which were moving north-wards at an average of a few yards per year.

But a leading geomorphologist yesterday insisted that building the landmark so close to the "inherently unstable" coast could still prove fatal for Trump's creation.

Dr Jim Hansom, from the School of Geographical and Earth Sciences at Glasgow University, explained that the defences will divert the water elsewhere, causing problems at other areas of the course.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2012, 05:14:29 AM »
Tom, perhaps you are right that greens were pushed back in to the pockets at the end of the valleys... Although in some cases (the par-5 10th) that would have been unavoidable... and in other cases only natural I suppose... I remember the green sites being fairly open in most cases... But then I never saw the final shaping and green lines...

Brian - In this case, after the horse has bolted, I think the environmentalists are playing a dangerous game... If they're not careful, they could be indirectly sanctioning even more stabilising of the dunes. Any danger and Trump will probably look for planning for rock gabions (or something equally awful) right along the coast... Anyway, aside from the 3rd green, I seem to remember the course has a pretty significant dune ridge between it and the sea...and at the north end of the course, it has a couple of dune ridges - maybe 100m wide... I don't know how bad possible erosion is there but I can't see it eating away any holes for a few generations... Maybe the worst they'll have to put up with is some sand blow from time to time... My guess for what it's worth...

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2012, 06:41:17 AM »
Anent the lost ball count: I didn't dislike the course because of losing balls. Those balls that I lost were largely because of poor shots that even as a 19-handicapper I should have played better, and that was certainly true of our other double-figure handicapper who was fighting a losing battle with his driver, duck-hooking and slicing big time. I don't recall us losing balls around the greens apart from the all-or-nothing 6th which we played as our first hole, and one particularly feeble approach shot from me which deserved its fate. I think it should be noted that I did not feel intimidated apart from the 14th tee. In fact on several holes I drove first simply to make sure we had a ball in play on the fairway (albeit well short of the ideal) so that the rest of our team members could go for the big shot. By and large it worked.

None of our team had any complaints about the rough in front of the tees and none said they found it forcing them to hit a higher ball than they would like to have hit. In fact the stuff never really entered our minds. As for the rectangular tees they don't feel rectangular because of the way they are set into the natural dunes. To have created free-form teeing grounds would have been much more invasive. As for six tees per hole they make a lot of sense as their area is small. The tees are charming and intimate and are certainly too small in area to sustain high volume play. To have created bigger tees would have involved wrecking dunes. Where we normally have a 3-tee system of white and yellow for men and red for women is fine, but I suspect the total area of teeing ground for the entire course will be much the same at Trump and at my own course at Wilmslow which is laid out on largely flat ground.

I am sorry so many opinions about the course have been clouded by personal feelings about Donald Trump. I have no particular view about him, never having spoken to him in my life. His speech at lunch was brief and remarkably lacking in pomposity. He was there to praise Martin Hawtree and his team. The tone of the whole event was set by Martin, not Trump. Those of you who have met Martin know he is charming, yet quite reserved, erudite, yet humble. Nothing organised by him was going to be ostentatious - it wasn't. Trump did not ask us to say what a world-beating course this may be. Instead, Martin asked us informally and individually what we thought and listened courteously to our replies. He made the point that this is still very early and clearly he expects to be making adjustments over the next few years. It was a sign of Martin's popularity that some of his former employees, now fully fledged as architects on their own two feet, returned to see for themselves what had been created - and they were free to say whatever they wished. There was no three-line whip.

I am glad I did not read this post before posting my photographs. My photographs are hardly flattering, taken in rain and poor light by a very average amateur photographer during the course of playing a round. But I am free to post them. There is no ban as there is at SFGC and some other prestigious US courses.

For all the criticism made on this site, mostly by people who have not yet played the course, it is not unplayable. Our team score was a gross 70, 2 under par. Of course the bulk of this score was achieved by our two low-handicappers, our 1-handicaopper in particular, but our two high handicappers were also able to make significant contributions. I know of one team which scored a gross 65. I don't know if it won.

I look forward to Robin and Adam's views. I expect them to be objective.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2012, 03:08:50 PM »
For the record, I played nine lunchtime holes with my wife today at Wilmslow. I played with more freedom than I usually do, a direct result of having been encouraged to open the shoulders at Trump.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2012, 03:25:37 PM »
And it has also been suggested strong south-easterly winds could cause chaos on the links, dumping "tonnes" of sand across the fairways.
Isn't this the ideal maintenance practice on a links course.  Wasn't OTM famous for saying "Sand, Honeyman.  More Sand!"

Ben Attwood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2012, 04:50:03 PM »
Here is the Independents view on the shifting dunes and what the result may mean for the course.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/teed-off-the-residents-of-foveran-links-speak-out-about-donald-trumps-golf-project-7939044.html

They have also reported the stories of the residents who have chosen to stay on their land. It is hard not feel sympathy for them. Because of this, and the pursuit of 'the economy' over the environment supposedly protected by law, I won't be playing the course. Having said that I'm sure there must have been other golf courses that have upset residents and environmentalists. Any other famous examples?

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2012, 05:36:48 PM »
Having said that I'm sure there must have been other golf courses that have upset residents and environmentalists. Any other famous examples?
How about pretty much every golf course built in the last thirty years.  There is an environmental activist protesting against damage at Cabot Links.  I am sure that if you tried to build pretty much any of the links courses in 2012 that you would have a battle on your hands.  Would St Andrews be better off if there was never any golf courses there?  Perhaps from an environmental standpoint but the world we be a lesser place.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2012, 08:38:36 AM »
Mark R.,

I appreciate your take. How strong were the winds you were playing so far? When you deem something playable of a links variety, it better have AT LEAST some stiff 30+ mph rounds in the mix. I highly doubt you've experienced that there yet from a 6,500 yd set-up.

Tom,

Thanks for your concern regarding my mental health. ;D While I readily admit to wading into and starting discourse involving caddie golf, my posting CERTAINLY frequently pertains to golf architecture.  I don't shrink from being an apostle for caddie golf, but I've also NEVER insisted that one had to play golf a certain way...EVER.

That said, SOMEBODY has to make up for absolutely PATHETIC support for caddie golf by so many of those attempting to line their pockets from the game, particularly those that supply or administer it. I'll happily carry that heavy bag responsibility til the day I die. You are a VERY strong supporter of caddie golf. That I know. You choose to do it in your own quiet way. Wonderful. I applaud it. There is plenty of room in golf for both approaches.

Ally,

I regret you have never had a quality caddie experience. Your golfing life is poorer for it... even if you don't believe that. My main contention is that quality ground and caddie golf are a logical and historical combination wherever it is has been economically viable. Great golfing ground is great golfing ground. With or without caddies. But there is no question quality caddie golf elevates the experience if one can embace it.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:44:59 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2012, 01:15:47 PM »
Donald Ross tinkered with Pinehurst # 2 for 26 years

CB Macdonald tinkered with NGLA for almost the same amount of time.

Ken Bakst tinkered with Friars Head after it opened and probably continues to do so today.

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.

If this was a Mike Keiser project the detractors would be singing its praises.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2012, 01:18:48 PM »


If this was a Mike Keiser project the detractors would be singing its praises.


Pat,

Have you read the Cabot Links threads?  I am shocked at the lack of respect the project is getting from this board.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #114 on: July 16, 2012, 02:22:54 PM »
Pat, JK well said. And it was being torn to shreds by you, Pat, some years ago when I made an ill-thought-through comment that has made me consider thoroughly what I write and what I say on this site. That is why I've tried to make the commentary to my photo tour as objective as possible.

As far as I know, Pat, we parted on good terms when last we encountered each other - at a filling station in New Haven after playing in an event at Yale!

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #115 on: July 16, 2012, 02:43:11 PM »
But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.

If this was a Mike Keiser project the detractors would be singing its praises.

Pat,

Isn't it Trump who is declaring this the best golf course in the world (or something similar)?  So isn't it Trump who is creating this "unrealistic expectation"? 

Trump's over-the-top persona and hyperbole hasn't earned him much goodwill from people who are put off by such things.  Can you really blame them?  You claim Trump's boorishness and pomposity is an act for entertainment purposes; well, it's a double-edged sword.  It might help him market a TV show but it offends many.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #116 on: July 16, 2012, 02:51:29 PM »
Patrick

Your comments seem to be more about defending Trump personally, rather than his course, which is fine by me. I don't have a problem with Trump. My issues have always centred on the idea of the course being built where it was and the politicians who allowed it to happen. Its certainly not about the quality of the course. Any comments I've made about the course have been in the form of questions as to whether there was any need to use the SSSI land, and such like, addressed to those who had seen the routing which was principally Ally. The reason I spell all that out is your characterising anyone who is not praising this development from the rooftops as being totally anti every thing about the course which as others has pointed out is rubbish.

Mark

Re your lost balls comments, I recall playing Loch Lomond in an event when the bank had it after it went bust the first time and before Lyle Anderson bought it, when it was still quite new. There was 13 or 14 fourballs and while I can't recall exactly the format of the comp, each fourball was a team. My fourball was fortunate enough to win and we lost 25 golf balls between us. I've never yet hear anyone say Loch Lomond was tight.

Niall

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #117 on: July 16, 2012, 03:09:25 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #118 on: July 16, 2012, 03:17:09 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.

I don't believe he suggests it, I believe he says that's what clients, raters, mag editors, etc., demand.

Of course, being a charter member DBB, what I believe may be suspect in itself...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #119 on: July 16, 2012, 03:21:24 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.

I don't believe he suggests it, I believe he says that's what clients, raters, mag editors, etc., demand.

Of course, being a charter member DBB, what I believe may be suspect in itself...

George, Tom is not shy about saying that is something that he does better than most everyone else. "Gets it right the first time"... neither disagreeing or criticizing, just pointing out that this may be the genesis of the commentary PM has commented on. Plenty of threads where Tom has stated this or much the same. As noted he's not shy, he can speak for himself.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2012, 03:23:42 PM »
Greg, here on gca there is time-honored tradition of speaking for others. Feel free to speak for me, I trust you. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2012, 03:28:37 PM »


If this was a Mike Keiser project the detractors would be singing its praises.


Pat,
Perhaps you might ask yourself why this is so?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2012, 04:00:14 PM »
To me it's not a Trump course, it's a Hawtree course. I could care less who financed it. I'm sure there are already a number of great courses that do not bear the Trump name, but where Trump via one of his many side businesses is involved in the financial side of it.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2012, 04:22:33 PM »
To me it appears that everyone is calling it a Trump course, even the title of this thread has it so. Just count the number of times "Trump" has been mentioned on this thread vs. "Hawtree" and you'll see what I mean.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2012, 04:27:25 PM »
To me it appears that everyone is calling it a Trump course, even the title of this thread has it so. Just count the number of times "Trump" has been mentioned on this thread vs. "Hawtree" and you'll see what I mean.

Ulrich

Well, again, though, that's the name of the course so it's not as if we're sitting around calling Pebble Beach "Eastwood Links." Trump wants his brand front and center and he's well aware of the good and the bad that come with that.