Trump International Golf Links

[Brad Klein]

Kris,

Please, it's not  my fault the wind didn't howl. I tried, believe me. I played two and half rounds there; in the four days I was on that coast the wind never got above 15-20 mph -- the latter when we were at Cruden Bay, which at 6,250 yards was unplayable (all four of us, 10-12 handicappers, admittedly right off the airplane, lost 10-12 balls each there) because with all the rain and with their maintenance decisions was simply unfindable the minute you stepped off the fairway or green. Trump and Royal Aberdeen were way more playable.

I never proclaimed Trump Int'l the greatest or anything like that and said judgment would have to await playing it under very different conditions. All I said it that was off to a good start. I had a long talk with Hawtree about likely small changes and he was keen to listen (!) and agreed that many of them were already being considered. I've played in 30-40 mph winds; not many courses are playable like that, but the fairways are 40-70 yards wide for tee shots. And I would judge which tees to play by the width at the point where you hit your average drive. At 6,350 yards my tees were fine and I never faced a carry that, with a reasonable hit of my skill, I couldn't manage. I also noticed that landing areas at 300 yards from the back tees narrowed a little. So it has flexibility. It's not perfect; it's not the greatest, but it's certainly better than i thought it would be based upon other Trump courses. And because this one was designed by Hawtree I assume he had a role in making it so.

[Kris Shreiner]

Brad,

I appreciate your candid reply. Many on this site that are objective place a high value on your take. You can certainly include me in that group. What you've just shared is more typical of the sharper read you are known for from my humble view. Not that it needs to be critical mind you; I'm not saying that. But I know you realize that the transitions from playable to purgatory(and worse) look far too abrupt on some of those green surrounds, ESPECIALLY for links golf, where the wind and random bounces due to firmness will frequently have balls rocketing through the back or being repelled off the shoulders to the sides. The other observations needn't be revisited.

Any course creation, and its team, no matter HOW GREAT, should be given the opportunity to tweak things once play commences, and a body of play yields where adjustments are prudent, before the real verdict is rendered. That said, when the trumphets have been blaring for as long as has been the case on this project...it better deliver. Clearly, there is work to be done.

Warm regards,
Kris

[George Pazin]

Brad,

As a fellow links golf lover that: also caddied, champions caddie golf as you do and has always respected you for that, greatly enjoys reading your many written contributions to the game over the years, and often agrees with your take on things... gotta call your 60 compression assessment on the place into question.

10-15 miles an hour...C'MON, that is a zepher sir! Hardly a fair links wind to base an evaluation of links playability...on an absolute BEAST of a track! You are a better golfer than 80% of those that will ever set foot on the place. I've seen you play. That marram grass is savage in its current presentation. I don't need to be there to touch it to see that. You seem to have gotten swept up in Trumposity mania that has infected others.

Notice you didn't dare go near Mr. Arbie's astute observation. What criteria are we using to determine the "correct tees?" Tough windy day, I'll play from 5,500. Easy, I'm back to 6800 +? I'm all for flexible set-up options, but it says something when you're are choosing to play tees according to particular wind conditions. Any links rounds I've ever played, the course had it's set-up for the day...and you give it a go. Isn't that golf?

If one is a la carting their tee game given the conditions, what does that say about the real quality of the course presentation? Caddies aren't even bothering to look for off-line balls. I know what is says for me...cruel links golf for all but the most accomplished or masochistic(of which I've often been accused of embracing). O.K., so we essentially multilated a pristine piece of ground to... MAYBE... host a professional event, even once every x years perhaps a Major, and the rest of the time impale the remainder of those who play it, save the OCCASIONAL tourist board photo day that occurs about as often as Haley's comet comes around. Can't see many wanting to play it multiple times.

The bar on this course was set in the stratosphere! Thanks to the natural beauty that it was CARVED out of, it is stunning, AND seriously flawed as a model on several levels. In any steady wind over 20 MPH, ROUTINE for a links site, this course will kick the ass out of ANY level of player...EVEN from the "right"tees. It needs MAJOR work, on multiple levels of presentation, before it is even close to becoming financially successful, AND in a class with the world's greatest courses.

Cheers,
Kris

One helluva post, well done, I owe you a Coke.

[Tim Martin]

After looking at the link in the OP and then four pages of posts including those of Mr. Klein and others who have played I take away an awful lot of positives and a real desire to see it. The land and surrounds sound incredible and by all accounts Hawtree has routed a splendid golf course. It`s easy to take shots at some of the perceived problems unseen but it is refreshing that when Joe Passov asked Hawtree about some possible changes or fixes he was candid and said they were being addressed. Remember this place has been open for ten minutes. I would much rather give it a little time than crucify it for the wrong reasons and most pointedly that you can`t stand Trump. I certainly understand Kris Shreiner`s angst that the land never should have been touched and left as pristine coastline. I would say that like or or not that ship has sailed and I hope that if it is or becomes that good that it is embraced.

[Greg Tallman]

Does anyone else find the grass path leading to the 6th green odd and distrcting. For me it really takes away from what is otherwise a stunning hole.

[Sean_A]

I've played in 30-40 mph winds; not many courses are playable like that, but the fairways are 40-70 yards wide for tee shots. And I would judge which tees to play by the width at the point where you hit your average drive. At 6,350 yards my tees were fine and I never faced a carry that, with a reasonable hit of my skill, I couldn't manage.

Brad

I agree, but I still think it a good idea to be playable in 30-40mph winds.  Its for this very reason that I prefer many of the second tier links to top class - there is little onus on maintaining a "championship" status.

Its good to hear fairways are up to 70 yards wide, but I have to say with gunge left and right, 40 yards doesn't sound wide.  I understand that when playing between dunes the archie largely gets what he gets unless he wants to bulldoze the hell out of the property, but that is the double edge of dunes.  They are very pretty, but often not conducive to quality playable golf.  

In any case, its heartening to know the course is off on the right foot because a wonderful landscape was sacrificed.  It would be an awful shame if the course was a dud, but then I never thought it would be.  He doesn't have a great rep on this board, but I have a lot of time Hawtree.  He has probably spent more quality time on quality links than any archie on the planet - he is more than capable of hitting a home run.

Ciao

[Brad Klein]

Sean,

I eyeballed those widths and will make sure I get real measurements before writing a full review. Many of the holes are probably wider and none quite as narrow as 40 in the main landing area. They vary, too, with the front nine through the dunes feeling much tighter and the back nine playing considerably wider and more relaxed, a totally different experience and more more welcoming.

But there is the sense that wayward shots can be easily given up for lost, and there's not as much play from behind the green or from way behind or around as with many classic links. That's a limitation. That's also something that varies with the course and with conditioning. As I mentioned, Cruden Bay was far worse. Royal Aberdeen's fairways have been considerably narrowed on the front nine. There's nothing more punitive and irrecoverable than the gorse one finds t/o much of Scotland. And the Trump course has far more width and space than, say, Rosapenna-Sandy Hill Links.

[David_Tepper]

I love how those who have played the course have been pretty much praised it across the board, while all the criticisms of the course are coming from those who have never set foot on it. Yet another thing that makes this chatboard great!    

[George Pazin]

I love how those who have played the course have been pretty much praised it across the board, while all the criticisms of the course are coming from those who have never set foot on it. Yet another thing that makes this chatboard great!    

Yep, reminds me of how Scent Of A Woman won the Golden Globe after flying over the voters, yet was a loust movie.

[Brad Klein]

Steve Lapper, Joe Passov and I played our inaugural Trump International Scotland round together. Wish I had tape recorded the conversation that passed between us during and after -- edited for the typical grunts, moans and curses at random shots. We're apparently trying now to reproduce it on GCA and in our respective posts elsewhere.

[David_Tepper]

"Yep, reminds me of how Scent Of A Woman won the Golden Globe after flying over the voters, yet was a loust movie." 

But George, did you decide "Scent of a Woman" was a lousy movie before you saw it? My hat is off to you if you did!

DT

[George Pazin]

I wish I had.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I love how those who have played the course have been pretty much praised it across the board, while all the criticisms of the course are coming from those who have never set foot on it. Yet another thing that makes this chatboard great!    

David,

And I thought I was the only one that noticed that 

[Steve Lapper]

In this case, the documentary information posted, or available of yet, to visually examine the course can only serve to narrow the perspective of those commentators who've yet to actually view this links. Surely all can and should comment away, regardless of proximity to an actual or live view.....that's the backbone of contempory Western culture, no?

The massive scale of these dunes mandates their preservation and any attempt to create super-wide fairways, ala Castle Stuart would have been a travesty. As the once proud owner of plenty of now missing Titleists, the honest truth is their loss was way more my fault and error(or being distracted by Brad and Joe's grunting echo.....thats my stiory and I'm sticking to it) than lack of width on this course. The millions of freshly planted Marram grasses, done to stabilize the dunes, are what preclude the caddies from searching for horribly wayward balls. Geoff's videos and subsequent commentary lack enough depth and miss enough angle perspective to wrongfully accuse it of narrowness.

Some here critique the course's playability in stronger winds, however, the versatility of the tee lengths and angles more than adequately compensates for it. If the gales are up, 6000 yds plays closer to 6800 and I'm not sure many links other than the Old Course would provide enough width to ensure playability.

Another feature to this place that works, yet will drive ye haters and pseudo purists crazy is the presence of what is likely the UK's greatest practice facility. In addition to a large scale full range, there is a six-green and seven bunker short game area available, along with a massive Himalayas-style practice putting green, replete with several mini-dunes smack in the middle ( thus allowing for the first putting green I've to see that one could conceivably lose a ball ).  Several of us spent a solid 45 minutes having a blast of time puttering around it, with grins only less wide than the fairways.

Naysayers say what you will. I, for one, intend to add it to my future itineraries and look forward to watching it mature. Cheers!

[Sean_A]

Thanks Brad.  Its very disheartening to hear about Cruden Bay.  Ballybunion was largely that was back in June - very disappointing - especially when Lahinch's rough was considerably more forgiving.  However, both courses have narrowed fairways considerably and it was very notable around some of Ballybunion's greens. 

David

If you have something nasty to say, get your Merion boots on and be nasty to a particular person rather than splash it across the board. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

The main (the only?) criticism coming from the hordes who haven't played seems to be regarding the thickness of the rough outside the fairways...

...I've said this before but that's a harsh call at this stage... Two reasons: 1. It's new: Once played and trampled upon, the marram around the edges will start to thin and disappear... 2. It's wet (see analysis of Cruden Bay)....

To use an example of a course Kris is very close to, Mach Dunes was unplayable 4 years ago by most accounts with lost marram rough immediately off blind landing areas... Last month I visited Mach Dunes and found it incredibly playable with no lost balls in 36 holes (I realise this was partly environmental)... Links courses have to fine tune and develop over a few years... This one opened on Tuesday...

[Kris Shreiner]

Empty your wallet, load up on golf balls, take your beating, perhaps with a caddie that acts as if they need a seeing eye dog...and laud the greatest course in the world...is that what we're supposed to do...before we can comment. Please. Some of you guys crack me up. Assertions made by those that HAVEN'T played were DIRECTLY confirmed by those who have! Imagine that. Guess we are just braindead complainers with nothing better to do.

I don't care if Shirley Temple is behind the course, it's the course presentation we are assessing. There is AMPLE evidence that currently, this track will annihilate players in any significant winds. Anyone that can't see that... WITHOUT even setting foot on it...needs a links primer!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the founder of this site encourages "frank" discussion of golf architecture. No mention of muzzled dissent until one has physically played something. I certainly agree there is NO BETTER way to assess golfing ground than to walk or play it. Many things can be hidden or missed just from pictures.

None of those that had any non-PC comments have discouraged folks from giving it a go. The stakeholders have tried to do a great job, and have a lot of quality elements in the current presentation. But it needs some significant tweaking, pronto. Carnasty is the hardest golf course I've ever played. I went round the Fall before Jean's epic collapse...it WAS playable, even with some haymaker rough.

Ally,

You beauty! Mach Dunes, the "poster child" for how NOT to open a new links offering. Financially, that project has struggled...bigtime. They had a SUPERB team to create that course, yet ownership drove it straight OB when it came to fielding a competent caddie staff(AN ABSOLUTE MUST for quality destination links golf) and understanding where missed shots would frustrate players. Especially those "go it alone" folks that don't take caddies. They were not allowed to cut many areas that should have been mowed, due to rare orchids and such that resided there. Some of that no-mow ground is able to be cut now, which has helped immensely.

They have done a TREMENDOUS amout of tweaking there to get the presentation you so enjoyed recently. I met several of the team back before it opened. They are a great group, and deserve a ton of credit for persevering to deliver through some very uneven direction from ownership.

There are several significant differences, however, between the projects. Mach Dunes was designed: having TOTAL cooperation with the locals, with the STRICTEST envirionmental constraints in the history of golf design, on a meager budget, with the intent to replicate a throwback era of links golf (hence the now-reduced blind shots), and the understanding it would be a VERY rugged, primitive presentation that would be evolving over time.

Contrast that with: a contentious beginning: somewhat less sensitive ground, softer environmental oversight during construction, Open Championship "Greatest Course in the World" aspirations, copious financial backing, and MASSIVE hype for the emerging marvel... and well...you get the picture.

There are other issues besides just the rough, but so as not to be labeled a basher of the project, and as I've not yet walked or played it, I'll refrain from fueling further discontent.

Cheers,
Kris

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kris,

I for one would be interested to hear your other issues besides the rough, my comments on which I stand by regardless of whether Mach Dunes is a good comparison or not.

I've walked the course once during construction and I'm playing it next month hopefully. I've seen plenty of Hawtree links designs and SOL's links shaping and I can see some similarities on some of these photos with what I've seen. Whether I will feel that way on the ground I'm not sure.

I've no problem with people rushing to snap judgements from a handful of photos either. It's their right. But I don't think anyone should hide behind frank commentary. You can only do that when you've enough information at hand to be frank and have some basis in truth at the same time...

I'll make my judgements only once I've played it and I'll make more when I play it again a few years after... I'm looking forward to it...

As for Mach Dunes - that was a really pleasant surprise... Much, much, more playable than I'd been led to believe... It's only been open for 4 years. Do you think people will judge it in 2040 on the mistakes they may or may not have made at opening... Incidentally, what have caddie programs got to do with the quality of a golf course?

[Mac Plumart]

What if the name was Mike Keiser International Golf Links? 

Any changes of opinion?

[Kris Shreiner]

Ally,

I have no problem whatsoever with your take. You are entitled to it. I just shared my views. Nothing more.

Snap judgements? What are you looking at? While some latitude is expected due to the "newness" of a place, heavy sward transitions on a links golf course, mere yards from the target, THE GREEN, are a joke that SHOULDN'T be present in that form when it opens...UNLESS you are just in a rush.

Brad mentions that the width, as have others, seems adequate. I'm not so sure, and here's why. With the elevation of most of those tee boxes, the wind will start hitting the ball, SIGNIFICANTLY, when it is up, AS SOON AS IT LEAVES THE BOX. It will also affect it for longer periods of it's flight, because there is ALWAYS stronger air influence as you gain height from ground level. It's simple physics. Therefore, I would assert that in the typical stiffer winds encountered in links golf, from ELEVATED TEES, having marram festooned fairway borders, that course will need significantly MORE width than the normal links offering.

I've seen NOT ONE report yet from someone who played the course in a howler, or even STIFF conditions. Have you? So if we are to question snap judgements....we sure as hell better start there when links golf is the topic of discussion. ANY course can become more playable in the wind if you move up to a shorter tee box, but what does that really say about the design? Great tracks just play tougher from where they are set up on the given day. I've never moved up to a forward or ladies tee because the wind was too strong on a great golf course. I'm no single digit player. Can't say I've ever played with anyone who did either, unless they were older or playing back a tee box more than they normally would with players who were significantly better than they were. Which is fine.

As to caddie programs and their relation to the quality of a golf course, let me offer some correlations. EVERY truly great golf course has the experience enhanced when they have a quality caddie program. A VAST majority of the world's greatest courses have caddie golf. The standard may vary, but they are present. Great golfing ground and a quality caddie experience are like: peanut butter and jelly, an ice cold beer and a killer burger, a superb bottle of wine paired with great cheese...they are inextricably linked!

Any destination golf facility, but particularly one offering links golf of quality, better have a quality caddie program...or they will struggle. Need proof? What are the two most financially successful golf destinations created in the last 20 years? Just golf centered; not with the often toxic real estate component. It's Bandon Dunes and Kingsbarns...by MILES more profitable than the rest of the struggling pack!

Caddie golf has been CENTRAL to their success. Short of quality course presentation, the caddie program has been that SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT element CRUCIAL to each's profitability. Many on this site will wince at this irrefutable fact. Quite a few of you don't: take caddies, care for them, respect them, whatever. That is fine. History HAS, AND WILL CONTINUE, to validate their importance to the game, ON SO MANY LEVELS, even to those that would like to believe otherwise.

Quality caddies also are the BEST friend a facility of caiiber ever had, new or existing. They: promote the place to players all day long, are the traffic cops that ensure tender areas aren't abused (especially during the early days), report issues to the greens staff, often help maintain the range/course for golf privileges, fix ball marks and keep tee boxes tidy, seed divots with mix during rounds, etc,etc.

Many caddies also take up the game, EARN WHILE THEY LEARN the sport, and contribute to it, in many ways, throughout their lives. Need more proof? Bill Coore caddied at Pinehurst as a kid. Ben Crenshaw learned the game from Havey Pennick, who found golf how...you guessed it, as a caddie.  Tom Doak, and current Olympic course designer Gil Hanse, both point to their brief, but thought-provoking stints caddying at St. Andrew's as significantly influencing their ideas and insights on course design. Brad Klein, who caddied and has championed caddie golf like few other scribes, also must be given major kudos for helping lead a game-changing movement in the U.S., DEMANDING a stronger stance on prudent tree removals and tree management to restore and maintain the prominent playing features of so many of our great parkland-style courses.

Tired of reading? I defy ANYONE to tell me that caddie programs have not, AND don't continue... to impact golf architecture. I could fill this site until I died on all the PROFOUND connections caddie golf has relating to quality course design.

Hope I've answered some questions.

Mac,

ZERO for me! But I doubt Mike would open with the presentation that greeted golfers near Aberdeen.

Cheers,
Kris

[George Pazin]

It's funny - I read a lot of thoughtful criticism (whether it's correct or not is a matter for debate, but most of it is not simple bashing), and yet everyone defending the course or project seems fixated that it's only coming because it's Trump. Who are the ones really fixated here? Not the critics, it seems...

[Will Lozier]

As a former PGA Apprentice, Nationwide & Bandon Caddie, I wholeheartedly agree with Kris!

Cheers and Well Said!

[Garland Bayley]

What if the name was Mike Keiser International Golf Links? 

Any changes of opinion?

But of course that is impossible. Mike Keiser works with the environment and the local people, not against it as was done here.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kris,

Regards the rough, since my repeated (admittedly pitiful) attempts at an explanation have fallen on deaf ears, please now refer to Mark's post No.8 in his photo tour thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52814.0.html

As for the caddie program, maybe you are right, I don't know... What I do know is that I have never once taken a caddie in my life and I don't believe it's had any effect on my take on golf course architecture... I don't want to talk for Martin Hawtree or Caspar Grauballe but I might guess that they might see the link as a little tenuous as well... Sure caddying yourself would certainly help your study (ala Doak et al) but I don't see the relevance in a discussion about how good Trump Aberdeen is...

I'm not suggesting good caddie programs aren't good... I'm just suggesting that they should have nothing to do with whether you think a golf course (not ancillaries) are good...

Ally

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not suggesting good caddie programs aren't good... I'm just suggesting that they should have nothing to do with whether you think a golf course (not ancillaries) are good...

Ally

Ally:

I will say that I think all the courses at Bandon Dunes are rated higher and more successful financially because there are no golf carts out there distracting from the golf ... I think it is the absence of carts more than the caddies which make it special, because lots of people do walk without a caddie, too. 

However, I agree with you that the caddie program itself should have little to no effect on how highly someone rates the golf course.  Kris is becoming as single-issue driven as Melvyn ... he needs to get back on his meds.

On the other hand, I know that the issue of lost-ball rough can and will be improved over time, but you can't really think that it's a good thing that all the reviews of the course so far have featured lost ball counts, can you?