When High Expectations are exceeded...

[Mike_Golden]

Through the incredible generosity of Bob Huntley I had a chance of a lifetime today to play Cypress Point-I think I've wanted to play #16 since I was a child and watched the Crosby played on Cypress with the limited TV coverage they used to have back in the 50's and 60's.

I had very, very high expectations of today's round....

And not only was I not disappointed, I had probably the most enjoyable round of golf in my life-the combination of the best course I've ever played, wonderful playing partners, great caddies, and a beautiful day.  And I even played reasonably well except for a double on #7 and my final iron shot of the day, a wedge on #18 that hit the top of the huge cypress tree garding the green and decided to have it for lunch.

I'll let the others tell you a little more, but I'll never forget today-it moved ahead of my first round at the Old Course in 1983 in my list of memorable golf experiences.

Oh, I hit it over the green into the back bunker on #16-should have hit the 4 wood, not driver.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike- Pebble is another that won't disappoint. Glad to hear you had a great time.  I guarantee if you get to play PB w/ B.H. that would also exceed any and all expectations.

BTW, that was a different Bob Huntley than our Bob Huntley, right?

[THuckaby2]

Yahoooooo!  Fantastic, Mike.  I was dying to hear about this.. I trust your playing partners also enjoyed the day?

Given no significant wind against, 16 is 4wood for you, Mike.  Tough not to take the big stick though and ensure getting over with a solid hit... making the carry is the main thing.  But I was talked into hitting driver once and hit it clean over the left back bunker, in a rare sorta down-wind day... Every other time it's been driver for me, without a doubt - but that's because every other time it was into the wind.  

Adam's right re Pebble, but I know you've played there.  Of course playing there WITH Mr. Huntley is a totally different matter... Yes, that would have to rank up there with the great golf experiences.  Which gives me an idea....

Thanks for the report in any case.  Fantastic.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Count me in for the Clorox outing @ PB, Tom.

If you could please have the jet meet me here in Farmington, I should would appreciate it. Thanx,
adam

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

Ha!  Would that the glorious Clorox company could sponsor such things... we don't even do the Clorox Bleachers at Oakland Colloseum any more!

No, I was thinking about a different way to get my own sorry butt down to play Pebble again, and maybe lure Mr. Huntley into joining me... unfortunately it won't likely involve large price breaks for non-course raters anyway... but stay tuned if interested.

TH

[David Wigler]

Mike,

Now you see why Tom and myself say that the argument begins and ends with CPC and everything else can compete for second.  Your expectations cannot be higher and yet it beats them.  In my entire life I have only had three courses that I truly believed were classics on the way in the door exceed my expectations on the way out - CPC, Shadow Creek and just recently ShoreAcres.  Those are rounds to be treasured.

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Dave - right on.  It is amazing how CPC does exceed expectations, which are impossibly high.  You see pictures, you see it from the road... but playing it it all comes clear.

I've had scant few others at which that happened also - it's almost always the other way - that one's expectations are so high, there's nowhere to go but down.  I'd say Shadow Creek worked (just as for you), and I'd add NGLA, Shinnecock and Sand Hills for sure.  Lehigh in PA was another, although no offense to my pal redanman but I didn't have the same extreme expectations there... But man did that place blow me away seeing it...  A big Chicagoan friend of ours seems to agree re Shoreacres also... damn, some day... maybe... dare to dream...  

TH

[Mike_Golden]

Adam, I've played Pebble several times-Cypress is much, much better-too many weak holes at Pebble.  From tee to green, the only course I've played that has as much shot value as Cypress is Bethpage Black (and for those who know me, that's my highest praise).

David, I agree completely, clearly the best course I've ever had the privilege of playing.  I have to admit to being somewhat disappointed with Pebble after the first time I played it (because of very high expectations).

Tom,  the driver was my caddie's call-I was pretty sure 4 wood was enough but he was right on every other club during the round-I hit a second shot with the 4 wood and was just short of the green but didn't hit it perfectly-a good 4 wood would have been perfect.

[Dan Grossman]

I agree with Mike Golden, everything about the day was perfect.  I should probably start this as another thread, but I am going to go ahead and say that the holes AWAY from the ocean are my favorites.  I thought that the stretch between 5 - 13 was just phenominal in terms of shot value, decision-making, etc.  15-18 are stunningly beautiful, but I liked the golf better on 5-13.

I'm sure someone now can proceed to tell me why I'm wrong!  

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

The time I blasted driver over the left bunker, it was the caddie's call also.  Oh well, to thine own self be true.  He was just so right about everything else, he earned the trust... He was also way more focused on one of the other guys, which was cool given it was his first time... I should have known better to it was my fault.

Dan:

You're gonna get no argument from me re the greatness of the holes away from the ocean.  Just be prepared for a battle with Rich "Cypress is no big deal and would be a better course routed backward" Goodale.  

TH

[Mike_Golden]

Dan, and here I thought your par on 16 would have been on the highlight reel and it turns out the approach you hit into the cabbage on 13 was more memorable

Tom, if Rich thinks Cypress would be better with another routing maybe he should find another hobby-I couldn't imagine a better way to build that golf course and my guess is neither could the Good Doctor (or Marion Hollins)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Classic stuff Mike! Glad you finally got to play there.

Now, go to jetblue.com and bu a ticket for Long Island and see another GREAT one, and you will die a happy man--the National Golf Links of America.

[Dan Grossman]

The par on #16 was definetely cool.  

However, I thought the cliff holes were all do-or-die.  Unless the wind is absolutely howling, I can't see laying up on #16.  I thought it was much more fun trying to figure out where to put the ball on the preceeding holes.  

I really enjoyed:

figuring out where to lay-up on #5
Trying to hit a slinging hook over the fairway bunker on #6
Picking (or guessing) the line on #8's drive
Decision whether to aim at the pin or not on #8 (it was left)
Deciding what to hit off the tee on #9
Approach on #11
Approach on #13

I thought #16 and #17 were more penal than strategic.  You know what shot you need to execute and if you don't - double bogey.

For what it is worth, I liked #18.  I thought the drive and approach were interesting.

[THuckaby2]

Dan:

Look in the archives here for a LENGHTY battle we had re the merits of #16, and when exactly one would hit the exhilirating layup described by my pal Dave Moriarty.  Oh no, we will NOT go into that again.

As for all the rest, I'm with ya on the greatness of all you mention.  I just find the tee shot on 16 to be so damn inspiring, I'm never going to say it's anything but the greatest hole on this planet.

But we have discussed this many times before...

Tommy:

Take a drive up the coast and take us up on one of the MANY offers the nice benefactor has made for you to tour Cypress.  One of the many reasons we all want this to happen - besides the fact that you simply NEED to finally tour the Sistine Chapel - is I for one would love to hear your comparison/contrast between NGLA and Cypress.  I was very, very fortunate to play the two within a month of each other two years ago, and let me tell you, it's a tough decision as to which is the better.  Your take would be priceless.

Then once that's done, go to Mullen, NE and see one that just might top both of them.  Then you too can die a happy man (as if that's not gonna happen already!)  

TH

[Mike_Golden]

Tommy, I don't need the Jet Blue ticket, already have a freebie for American to fly to JFK-what I would need is a way to play NGLA without sneaking on the course at midnight

[THuckaby2]

redanman:

Oh, I had high expectations all right... just not Cypress or NGLA or Sand Hills or Rustic Canyon expectations... read that to mean expectations re courses that we beat to death in here!

But playing the course with you, I came away as a Mark Fine believer!!!!!

Love the exclamation points.

Good luck with the tree crusade, btw.  That would be something if you succeed.

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Tom,

In an attempt to stir the pot (STIR STIR), let me explain myself on #16.  I should preface this by saying that I had read the thread on 16 at CPC (at the time) and was not dead-set on going for it.  

The wind was in our face a little (less than 10mph), but the carry was much shorter than I thought it would be.  That being said, I still looked left to see what the layup area looked like.  It certainly did NOT inspire confidence.  I felt that I had an equal chance of making 5 by laying up as I did by hitting one in the ocean.  (Mainly thats because my chipping and putting sucks)  I pulled out a 2-iron and hit it to the back of the green.  So, unless the wind was blowing more than 30mph, I could always clear the ocean w/ a well-struck 3 wood.  My decision had nothing to do with (really) where I was or what hole I was on.  It was the fact that a reasonablely well struck iron would get on the green and allow me to 2 putt for par.  A layup would probably get me bogey or higher.  If the tee was back another 10 or 15 yards, it would have been a much different decision.  

[THuckaby2]

Dan:

Be it equipment, muscles, whatever, you have changed the equation here because you're the first person I've talked to about CPC #16 who said:

a) the carry was shorter in person than he expected (it usually goes the exact opposite); and

b) he can comfortably reach it with an iron.

I've heard you can take it deep, but man that is REALLY long. That's cool - Shivas and Wigler figured it this way also (at least I think so).

If I could comfortably hit it with an iron in no wind, I'd think the way you do as well - no hassles.

Me, I can't see ever taking less than 3 or 4 wood.  And while I am short off the tee compared to behemoths like you guys, I gotta figure I'm longer than average.  So most people do look at it as a very heroic shot - one they're gonna have to hit their Sunday best to be able to make the carry at all.  Add that to the "scene" and just where one is standing, and well, you have one hell of a great golf hole.

But we said all that many times before.

In any case, a key point I agree with is that going left is no guarantee of anything.  One still has to pick the right line, right club, and then if one succeeds the pitch ain't an easy one.  Maybe that's why Dave M. liked the layup so much... it still required a lot of thought.

TH

[Mike Benham]

... STIR STIR ...

... I still looked left to see what the layup area looked like.  It certainly did NOT inspire confidence.  I felt that I had an equal chance of making 5 by laying up as I did by hitting one in the ocean.  

Did you feel that you had an equal chance to make a 3 by laying-up left than if you went for the green?  

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

In any case, a key point I agree with is that going left is no guarantee of anything.  One still has to pick the right line, right club, and then if one succeeds the pitch ain't an easy one.  Maybe that's why Dave M. liked the layup so much... it still required a lot of thought.

TH

Tom,

First, I beg to differ.  The player who choses to lay up is accepting a likely four on the tee.  While I agree that the tee shot still requires a good - not great - shot, the pitch to the green is a piece of cake for anyone who can get the ball air-born since the green is generous and pitched in the player's favor.  

Second, you and I both know DMoriarty liked the lay-up so much that day because the wind was howling from two o-clock!  Give the weenie a break

Regards,

Mike

[Dan Grossman]

... STIR STIR ...

... I still looked left to see what the layup area looked like.  It certainly did NOT inspire confidence.  I felt that I had an equal chance of making 5 by laying up as I did by hitting one in the ocean.  

Did you feel that you had an equal chance to make a 3 by laying-up left than if you went for the green?  

Mike

I felt the only way to make 3 was to hit it at the green.  If I laid up, I was settling for four and potentially bringing 5 into the equation (due to my uncanny ability to three putt)

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

What I meant by not being guaranteed of anything is that the tee shot going left is no easy shot, no matter where you go... It's not like 4 is guaranteed going left, that's all.  Yes, the pitch shot won't be the most difficult if you succeed, but on that I am just guessing, having never been woman enough to have this shot.  

Dave M., if and when you read this, you know I love ya man and I am just pulling your chain.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Let's try this:

Playing the 16th 100 times and laying up, the player effectively lays up 80 times (4 out of 5).  The 20 times he dunks his tee ball he makes a 6.   After an effective layup he gets up and down 1 out of five times, makes bogey 3 out of 5 times and makes double (3-putt, chili-dip, bladed pitch) 1 out of 5 times.   If my math is correct (I am, after all, a Univ. of Tenn. man), his stroke average on the hole is 4.40.

Alternatively, having the testicular fortitude of Tom Huckaby (notwithstanding the "Castrate Huckaby" thread), he goes for it 100 times.  One of four shots find the putting surface, but he 3-putts 1 out of 5 times (hey, it's a cruel game and a big green).  Let's give him three birdies, however.  Of the 75 shots that miss the green, let's say 10 find dry land and he gets up-and-down 4 times for par.  The remaining 65 tee shots (two-thirds for you fellow southern state school graduates) swim with the seals, yielding a 6 (with the occasional 5 and 7 off-setting).  Again, if my math is correct, the real man averages 5.03.  

Questions:

1)  Is my math correct (never have checked it)?
2)  Which man is the better golfer?
3)  Does the "weenie factor" justify the higher average.

What sayeth you?

Mike

[THuckaby2]

I sayeth:

1) That math looks correct to me;
2) the better golfer is the one who achieves the better score, can't argue with that;
3) the weenie factor / macho factor / I'm only gonna get one chance in my life so I am going for it factor is what justifies the higher average.

Seriously, even macho studs like Shivas and Wigler and myself conceded the wisdom of laying up, and stated that if we played this course that many times, or played it in competition, the layup left would be made quite often.

Where we give David crap is that this is a historic spot, and we have so few cracks at it, we just can't see the wisdom of laying up in our present reality.  Score becomes insignificant in that respect... the chance at immortality - getting one's mug on a wall in the locker room as one of the tiny handful who have aced the hole - is what drives the club choice.

TH

ps - the funny thing is, I am the weeniest of weenies myself when it comes to every day play... I lay up all the time where others just fire away.  Years of competitive golf does that to a man.  Just THAT tee, THAT spot, THAT chance at immortality... nope, I ain't laying up there any time soon, not so long as I can carry the ball 200 yards.  And even then I'd dunk one just to spite the golf gods.

[Mike Benham]

Of the 75 shots that miss the green, let's say 10 find dry land and he gets up-and-down 4 times for par.  The remaining 65 swim with the seals ...

First off, I believe sea otters are indigenous to that area ...

Second, are you implying that Huckaby would put 65 balls into the drink?

If Huckaby had the chance to hit 2 small buckets to the 16th at Cypress, I doubt he would put 65 into the water and he might even get lucky and make a hole in one ...