Mackenzie and Forward Tees

[Jim Hoak]

Does anyone know if Mackenzie, at his major courses, set forward tees for ladies in his inital design--or were those added by the clubs at a later date?  How about other pre-'30's architects?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Ladies' tees were not that common on golf courses built in the 1920's, by any of the major architects.  They generally built two tees per hole, a back tee and a regular tee, and put the ladies on the front of the regular tee [playing to a ladies' par of 76].

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that many of Crystal Downs' forward tees were added after the fact, and some of them clearly look like it in how they were constructed.

[Scott McWethy]

I'm curious if Cypress Point had forward tees in the beginning.  With Marion Hollins being such a major part of that place, I wonder if she was an advocate for having women's tees when the course was in its infant stages.

[Neil_Crafter]

Hi Jim
Good question!
Here's an extract from the plan of Cavendish GC as built from around 1925, this is not Mackenzie's design plan. You will see that there are some holes with two tees, some with even three or four. Whether one of these was designated as a "ladies tee" is an interesting point, but I'm sure Tom is correct in that the ladies markers were most likely placed on one of the forward tees, with not a lot of thought from the architect.

I have some early photos of Cypress Point's 16th that show a forward tee, so clearly Mackenzie was thinking of the shorter hitters and giving them an easier way around the chasm.

[Lyne Morrison]

Hi Neil - just out of interest - when you have a moment could we see that image?
Thanks, Lyne

[Neil_Crafter]

Cheers Lyne, here you go 

forward tee on 16 at CP


rear tee (further right than front tee)

[Neil_Crafter]

From Wayne Morrison:

Dear Neil,
I noticed a thread on GCA.com regarding the use of forward tees by classic era golf architects.  Here is what William Flynn wrote about forward tees in an October essay written for his 1927 series on golf architecture for the USGA Green Section Bulletin:

In fitting the course to all classes in everyday play it is necessary to maintain relative values in the holes. This can only be done by using two and in some instances three tees to a hole the various players using the tee that fits their particular game.
 
The value of a hole is immediately lost when the 200-yard driver uses the back tee on a normal 420-yard hole. It is impossible for him to get home in two, whereas had the forward tee 40 to 50 yards ahead been used he would then have played a long iron or spoon shot to the green with a resultant thrill of satisfaction and at the same time be within his limitations.
 
A great many players are averse to using forward tees perhaps because they were originally christened “ladies tees” but regardless of that fact it seems that a great deal more enjoyment could be had if golfers used the tee on the various holes that really suited their game.
 
A little card tacked on their locker door with the following inscription might go a long way toward correcting their prejudice against the so-called “ladies tees.”
 
GOLFERS, ATTENTION!

“In order to accommodate all classes of players your club has gone to the expense of building forward, intermediate and back tees on many holes. These tees are kept in order and markers are placed on each one. Except in tournaments please use the tee that fits your particular game and enjoy the course.”