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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2012, 09:19:24 PM »
OM, BD, PD, BT

would love to hear why you ranked them this way Mac, thx

Hey Paul...

Old MacDonald is my favorite due to the "adventure" golf vibe to the course, the uniqueness, the routing makes the round feel like a journey, and fun aspect of the challenges.  And, if playing a match, the closing holes are some of the best match play holes I've ever seen.  Some people may bag on this hole or that as they don't fit in the with the templates perfectly, but I couldn't care less.  All I want is fun golf with unique challenges.  And Old Mac delievers in spades.  Quite simply, I'd travel far and wide to play a course like this...as I can't get what it has anywhere near my home.

Bandon Dunes is a great mix of links golf meets American golf.  It is linksy enough to be something different, but still "comfortable" enough not to throw you totally out of whack.  So, I am at ease while playing...but with really neat tee to green challenges.  And then comes 16...WOW!!!!!  I think the placement of that hole, in all its maginficence, is perfect and then to follow it up with 17 is ideal...and then while still awed and amazed by those two holes, you are eased out of the round bewildered and stunned.  Really cool stuff IMO.

Pacific Dunes' back nine is out of this world amazing.  11, 13, 14, 17, and 18 knocked my socks off.  But I was a bit underwhelmed with a few of the holes, notably 1, 2, 7, and 8.  I am unsure if 7 and 8 are great in every wind.  But then you get a hole like 6, and you are totally blown away again.  I guess it was hit or miss with me and my, to date, 2 plays of the course.  However, I think if I've missed something while playing and evaluating a course...I might have missed something at Pac Dunes.  Like I said, I've played it twice...but I feel like I need to get back out there again for another round (or two).  BUT, I've felt this way before about other courses and then on the follow-up visits I felt the same way.  Regardless, I'll be back to try it again.

Bandon Trails I LOVED holes 1-13.  Then the vibe shifted on hole 14 to something completely different from the first 13 holes...then the vibe at 15 was right back to the same one that existed before hole 14...then 16 had another odd feel to it that wasn't congruent to any of the other holes...then 17 was freakin' world class but by this time my head was spinning from all the shifts in vibes of of the holes...and then 18 was another odd feeling hole.  This back and forth in sentiment regarding holes ruined it for me.  I really liked the course, I think it is really good, but in my mind it doesn't compare to the other courses as I feel the course doesn't fit together like the others do.  

Of course, these are just my thoughts (as you requested).  I'm sure others have differing and very valid opinions.  After all, that is what makes the Discussion Group so entertaining.

To add to the entertainment...

For a fairly extensive and detailed post on the resort, I find there is little that Mac said the I can reconcile with my own opinions of the four courses at Bandon.

In no particular order:

1.  I'm not sure what you mean by "adventure" golf.  If its a sense of discovery with the play of each hole, that is a feeling I've had on each of the four courses.  If anything, that sense of discovery for me may have been less at OM, as it was the course I knew the most about the first time I played it.   The course that provides the biggest wow moments is probably Bandon Dunes, but I don't think the actual play of the holes measures up to the anticipation created on the tees.  Bandon Trails offers the greatest sense of a journey, the routing presenting the most diverse range of atmosphere.  Pac Dunes is the most disorienting course (in a good way), with the weaving nature of the routing, the switchbacks and the crossovers working very well as you rarely see another hole on the course while playing.   I also find it slightly ironic that you label a course comprised primarily of template hole adaptations as unique.  Perhaps you were referring to the size of the greens, or the open nature of the holes in the middle of the course, but without a bit of color as to why OM is unique I'm left wondering what exactly you meant.

2.  I'm a bit confused by the statement that Bandon Dunes is "a great mix of links golf meets American golf."  To make this claim does a disservice to the Scottish features that were worked into the course.  The pot bunkers, the width, the gorse lined fairways and the ocean reveals are elements that suggest nothing to me of the typical "American" course.  If anything puts me at ease on Bandon Dunes its that its the most straight forward of the four courses, but this has nothing to do with features that I would associate with golf on this side of the pond.  In the Old Mac section you stated you can't find a course like it near your home.  I'd be hard pressed to find a course like any of the four anywhere near where I live, even the one's with Scottish sounding names.

3.  You have stated in the past that you like the closing hole at BD as it eases you out of the round.  To me it is the most bland hole at the resort, and to have it be your last memory of the round leaves a sense of disappointment.  I guess I'm in the crowd that likes a course to close on a high note, and there's little about this hole that creates this feeling.  I find it interesting that you note the match play nature of OM as a plus, yet the same analysis doesn't play into your opinion of Bandon Dunes.  If there's a hole on the course that presents little drama when coming down the closing stretch, its the 18th at BD.  Hopefully your match ends 3&2 or 2&1, in which case its a moot point.  As for 16 and 17, in my opinion they pale in regards to the combo of 4 and 5.  Perhaps this is part of the reason why I wasn't as impressed by the closing stretch at Bandon Dunes as you were, as I felt the real high point of the round had occurred on the front nine.

4.  Either our tastes for golf holes is extremely different or you as you suggest you did miss the boat when playing the 1st, 2nd, 7th and 8th holes at Pac Dunes.  I would be interested to get your reaction after having played the course at least a few more times.  For what its worth, the 2nd, 7th and 8th are three of my favorite holes on the course, whatever direction the wind is blowing.

5.  Bandon Trails is the most polarizing course on the property, and the stretch from 14 to 18 is a large part of the divergent opinions.  I happen to really like the closing stretch, and feel that the precise shots required on 14 are demanded at the perfect point in the round.  16 is a great example of the puzzle nature of the course as a whole.  There are features on the hole that make it play easier, and knowing how to use the slope on the right side of the fairway or that a putt from the wrong spot on the green may be near impossible is part of the key to solving the problem.  As for the 18th, as mentioned in 3 above, I don't mind a challenge on the last hole and feel that asking for a precise drive again at this point in the round is not too much to ask.   The closing stretch in general, is the toughest section of the course.  C&C are asking you to play your best golf at the point in the round where you have no excuses for not being warmed up, and when your swing should be grooved.  If you struggle coming in, you probably struggled all day.

6.  Bandon Trails is a journey, from Dunes to Forest and back to the Dunes.  The 14th is a key point in the journey, you've emerged from the trees, standing at the highest point on the course (from what I recall this is the spot where Keiser determined the Bandon property was where he wanted to make his mark, but I could be wrong on this).  Its a hole unlike any other on the course, and I can see how it could be jarring.  It wasn't for me.  I also know that on repeated plays its a hole that lurks in the back of my mind during the earlier parts of the round.  There are other holes like this on other courses, including the 7th at Barnbougle Dunes, the 12th at Skokie, the 16th at Sleepy Hollow and the 17th at Sawgrass.  Knowing that the challenge of the 14th lies ahead of you seems to make it fit into the routing as a mid-round crescendo.  The benign appearance of the 15th (a hole that can have a bit of bite) pairs perfectly with the bite of 14, and is a brief respite before charging back to the clubhouse.

7.  As for the fun factor, in my mind there are different factors that play into the determination.  If I'm looking for a casual end of the day round, Bandon Dunes would be my pick.  If I want to play a course that feels like unlocking a puzzle, I'd go with Bandon Trails.  If its time to test the game, Pacific Dunes is the play.  Old Mac presents the opportunity to use the ground game the most of the four and there are a bunch of fun shots that can be attempted (including the drive on 3, the tee shot on 5, the approach on 13 and the approach on 18).  But I'm not sure if I think its the most fun of the four when combining all of the factors that go into that analysis for me.

Just as the four courses are different, each golfer that plays them walks away with a different take.  I have friends that refuse to play Trails, and schedule their extra rounds on BD.  I also have friends that would play Pac Dunes every round on their future visits without setting foot on any of the other courses.  In my mind, all four courses are excellent.  My preferences seem to change after each visit, with Bandon Trails being the rising star of late. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2012, 09:34:05 PM »
Sven...

I agree with your sentiment that one of the most interesting things regarding golf courses is that many of us having differing views and tastes regarding them.  

I respect your take and appreciate you taking the time to write your post.

To your confusion regarding how I define "adventure golf", I have, as of yet, not found the best way to articulate it.  It is just a feeling I get when playing a course.  My feeling regarding this genre of course isn't a sense of discovery as you suggest.  When I find the way to put my feelings into words, I'll post them.

Frankly, reading your post makes me want to play Bandon Trails again more than anything.  I like how you highlighted its "journey" aspect.  

As you said, "Just as the four courses are different, each golfer that plays them walks away with a different take."  I agree.  In fact, I wonder when I go back out there if I'll have yet another set of feelings regarding these four gems?  I can't wait to see.   :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Matt MacIver

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Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2012, 09:56:25 AM »
BT, PD.  BD.  Haven’t played OM yet but my hope is that after I play OM my order becomes: OM, BT, PD.  BD. 

Re: the “adventure” concept, BT has it in spades.  My hope is that OM has even more, that it surfaces again and again over multiple plays and I can use one ball the entire round.  This high ‘capper can’t use one ball on any of the other courses, though BT comes the closest.  I seem to be in the minority of a bad golfer listing BT so high? 

That said it’s a really close call for me between BT and PD.  Given only one play I’d opt for PD.  Given a few days I certainly would play BT at least once (morning, less wind – trust me there’s plenty for me most afternoons) and would lean for multiple plays at PD.  Given 10 and based upon my hypothetical OM-BT-PD-BD I’m thinking 3-2-3-1-1 (does the Preserve deserve its own round too?)  Don’t even throw the Sheep Ranch in. 

Mike Hendren

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Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2012, 11:48:10 AM »
Salma Hayek
Charlize Theron
Halle Berry
Sofia Vigara

Bogey
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 11:50:00 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2012, 12:18:42 PM »
Salma Hayek
Charlize Theron
Halle Berry
Sofia Vigara

Bogey

Bogey,

That is a fine list, but you have the order all wrong :D

Halle Berry-the Pacific Dunes of the group. She is higher on most everyones lists and there is very little to find fault with. Nearly perfect.

Sofia Vigara- Old Mac. The new comer to the group, but blows you away with her energy and pure fun and excitement.

Charlize Theron- Bandon Trails. She is full of intrigue and subtlety. Should be higher on most everyone's list, but for some reason she slips underneath the radar.

Salma Hayek- Bandon Dunes. She has been around for a longtime and is just enjoyable. There are others that are better, but still a great one.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2012, 02:01:42 PM »
1.  Pacific Dunes - There really is not a weak hole on the course.  In fact, maybe the only change I would make would be to lower the first tee and have you teeing off down in the shute.  I may have put #12 green more into the dune behind it also.  Otherwise, best test and most scenic golf course on the property.

2.  Old MacDonald - It is a close call between Bandon Trails and Old MacDonald, but I give it to Old MacDonald due to its best holes being better than Bandon Trails best holes.  I simply love #3, #7 and #14-#18.  #7 may be my favorite hole at the resort.  It does not rank above Pacific Dunes because of a couple of holes that I think kind of missed - #9 - it does not look or feel like a Cape and the visual is half of the design of a Cape - by far worst hole on the course; and #11 - I love the green complex, but the rest of the hole is a miss.  If you forget what you are scoring, it is the most fun golf course on the property - as you simply don't hit shots on any other course.

3.  Bandon Trails - I love this golf course - it is just a great "walk in natre".  Love the first 3 holes and think the stretch from #10-#15 may be the best at the resort - I love #14 and hope they don't change a thing about it.  If you get in a bad spot, hit to the collection area left of the green and 2-3 putt for par or bogey.  The reason that it is #3 is, again, a couple of holes just miss.  #16 and #18 are a let down after a spectcular back 9.  On #16, I have wondered whether they could move the tee up the hill to the right to provide the hole a little of an angle and not just make it a death march uphill.  Also, think they should have some flat collection areas as you climb the hill (to the right where the bunkers are) to make it more playable; #18 - I know people are minimalists but cut the top of the fairway hill down so the rolls are not as severe with the strong winds on the hole - it is ok to make a hole playable for the average golfer; Lastly, #7 and #9 are good, but not great holes.

4.  Bandon Dunes - The most difficult course to rank.  The best of Bandon Dunes is possibly the best at the resort.  How can a golfer not love #4-#6 and #15-#17.  Like Mac, I am tempted to rate it higher because of how awe inspiring #16 is - most gorgeous hole at the resort with tons of strategy to it.  However, too many holes miss, especially the finishers #9 and #18, which are just not inspiring.  #9 is just boring and   I still don't understand why #18 is not played along the canyon to the right - the fairway and green should run straight up to the canyon.  In addition, I did not think much of #2 and #8.  That being said, it is without question the most playable golf course at the resort and is the ideal way to finish your stay when you are tired and wondering if you can play another round.  Just fix #9 and #18!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:07:41 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Tom Ferrell

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Re: Bare Knuckles Bandon Brawl - Rank the 4 Courses at BDGR
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2012, 03:17:10 PM »
It's now been two months since my 85-hole whirlwind visit to BDGR.  I loved every course I played, including The Preserve.

To me, Old Mac was the most fun.  Man, what a blast.  Pure fescue means ground GAME.  Loved the rumpled fairways, the rambling greens and the knockdowns and run-ups.  And the heroic carries of Sahara and Alps.  Just a blast.  And having since played NGLA for the first time, I really gained an even greater appreciation for Tom and Jim's work.  Bravo!

Bandon Trails is probably the purest golf experience.  Just great hole after great hole.  I didn't see 14 in the same controversial light that many do.  There are clear options, each with risks and rewards.  I hope they don't change it.

I loved both Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.  They are two totally different neo-links experiences.  Bandon Dunes does indeed have some weak holes.  I was not a fan of 9, 17 or 18 in particular.  But remember, when DMK laid that out, his options were somewhat limited by the need to play out and to the resort complex and by an incomplete property parcel (much more land added later).  I greatly enjoyed BD and will play it over and over.  Pacific Dunes is a golf experience unlike any other.  I do believe that some of the internal contours and green surrounds take on a defensive posture and repel worthy shots.  But PD also provides the biggest payoffs at the facility, with several all-world holes crowned by the incredible and soul-stirring 13th.

If you're interested, you can read my story on BDGR here...

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/files/magazine/jul2012/index.html#/80/