Royal Portrush has a better set of greens than Royal Melbourne...discuss

[Simon Holt]

I'm just watching the Irish Open and one of the commentators came out with this.  They backed it up by saying it was the ultimate compliment, which implies they think they are the best anywhere in terms of shaping.

I havent played RMW but have played Dunluce.  I certainly thought they were up there with the best set of greens I have experienced; cant wait to go back in September  

I would be interested to hear the thoughts of GCAers that have played both.  Are they possibly the best set of greens in the world in terms of design?  Big statement.

[Simon Holt]

The discussion on Sky is actually very interesting.  In between shots they are discussing Colt and how as time goes on he is more and more revered as one of the all time greats.  They go on to ask why modern designers dont come and look at courses like this and take the influences into their own designs, especially the bunkering.  They then discussed Kingsbarns as a well designed modern course.

There is hope yet!

Do the US commentators have these discussions?  

[Tom_Doak]

Portrush has one of the best sets of greens of any links course ... probably because they were designed and built as a set in 1920 by Mr. Colt, rather than evolving over generations as on many other links.

They might be in the same class as Royal Melbourne.  I can't see that they are better ... I'm guessing your friend has only played Royal Melbourne one time, and the greens weren't as dramatic as his expectations for them.

Personally, I wouldn't call either the best set of greens in the world, but that is ultimately a matter of taste.

[Simon Holt]

Its Wayne Grady, one of the commentators, he has played RMW in quite a few tournaments by the sounds of it.  Its just refreshing they are talking about design over swing critiques.

[Greg Thomsen]

I'm pretty sure its Wayne 'Radar' Reilly, he's a pretty good on course calller I reckon.

He won the Australian Open on the composite course in 1991. I haven't been to Portrush, but it wouldn't surprise me if Radar is a little caught up in the moment. It does look real good on tele though.

There seems to be genuine excitement about this tournament, I think its sold out all days. Incredible! Why isn't there more links tournaments ??

Greg.

[David Stewart]

Personally, I wouldn't call either the best set of greens in the world, but that is ultimately a matter of taste.

Mr. Doak: Would you list a few courses that, in your opinion, should be in the discussion for best set of greens in the world? Thanks!

[Simon Holt]

I'm pretty sure its Wayne 'Radar' Reilly, he's a pretty good on course calller I reckon.

He won the Australian Open on the composite course in 1991. I haven't been to Portrush, but it wouldn't surprise me if Radar is a little caught up in the moment. It does look real good on tele though.

There seems to be genuine excitement about this tournament, I think its sold out all days. Incredible! Why isn't there more links tournaments ??

Greg.

You're right Greg, thats what I meant to type; I dont know where I got Grady from.  My fingers and brain obviously aren't playing ball today.

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I wouldn't call either the best set of greens in the world, but that is ultimately a matter of taste.

Mr. Doak: Would you list a few courses that, in your opinion, should be in the discussion for best set of greens in the world? Thanks!

David:

There is a fairly long list of "Courses with Greens Worth Studying" in the back of my first book, The Anatomy of a Golf Course.  I will dig it up tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Got it right here:

Augusta National
Ballybunion
Camargo
Charlotte CC
Commonwealth
Crooked Stick
Crystal Downs
Detroit GC
Forsgate
Harbour Town
High Pointe
Hollywood
Legends - Heathland Course
Long Cove
Merion
Morfontaine
NGLA
North Berwick
North Shore
Oakland Hills (South)
Oakmont
Paraparaumu
Peachtree
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Pinehurst
Prairie Dunes
Prestwick
Rockport
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (West)
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Somerset Hills
St. Andrews - Old
TPC Sawgrass
Westhampton
Winged Foot (East and West)
Woking
Yale

[Simon Holt]

In terms of green contouring at the back of Anatomy of a Golf Course;

ANGC
Ballybunion
Camargo
Charlotte CC
Commonwealth GC
Crooked Stick
Crystal Downs
Detroit
Forsgate
Garden City
Harbour Town
High Pointe
Hollywood GC
Long Cove
Merion
Morfontaine
NGLA
North Berwick
North Shore CC
Oakland Hills
Oakmont
Paraparaumu
Peachtree
Pebble
Pine Valley
Pinehurst No 2
Prairie Dunes
Prestwick
Rockport CC
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Worlington and Newmarket
Somerset Hills
St Andrews Old
TPC Sawgrass
Westhampton CC
Winged Foot
Woking
Yale

....so no Portrush!!  Royal Portrush did make it into the Routing section.

[Simon Holt]

Sven beat me to it!

[Sven Nilsen]

Simon:

The on camera discussion of the architecture is lacking in the american broadcasts, but generally that is a factor of the types of courses being played.  Occasionally you get the odd remark that rings true.

Best comment I've heard today on the Irish Open coverage that you wouldn't hear for a U.S. Event:  Keegan Bradley just drove a ball way right into a "gorsey grave." 

[Joey Chase]

In terms of green contouring at the back of Anatomy of a Golf Course;

ANGC
Ballybunion
Camargo
Charlotte CC
Commonwealth GC
Crooked Stick
Crystal Downs
Detroit
Forsgate
Garden City
Harbour Town
High Pointe
Hollywood GC
Long Cove
Merion
Morfontaine
NGLA
North Berwick
North Shore CC
Oakland Hills
Oakmont
Paraparaumu
Peachtree
Pebble
Pine Valley
Pinehurst No 2
Prairie Dunes
Prestwick
Rockport CC
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Worlington and Newmarket
Somerset Hills
St Andrews Old
TPC Sawgrass
Westhampton CC
Winged Foot
Woking
Yale

....so no Portrush!!  Royal Portrush did make it into the Routing section.

So few true links on this list.  Doesn't Sandwich, Portrush, Rye, Deal, Hoylake, Lahinch, Portmarnock, and countless others have greens worthy of our interest? 

[David Stewart]

Thanks all for the list. I actually own the book but had forgotten about the lists in it. Hopefully I can get to half of those in my lifetime!

[Paul_Turner]

I assume that the "Detroit" listed is a different course that had all its greens recently remodeled by Tom?  Otherwise, why change them?

[David_Tepper]

"So few true links on this list.  Doesn't Sandwich, Portrush, Rye, Deal, Hoylake, Lahinch, Portmarnock, and countless others have greens worthy of our interest?" 

Joey Chase -

The features on the greens of links courses generally are more subtle than you are likely to find on some inland courses. My guess is that the greens on links courses are much more exposed to very windy conditions, which could make them unplayable under those conditions if they contained dramatic contours and/or slopes.

DT

[Joey Chase]

David Tepper,
Does that mean that the greens at St. Andrews, by far the most heavily contoured greens I've ever seen, are unplayable in windy conditions?  The others I mentioned are certainly not flat are they?  And, having said that, the subtle unique contours in links are what should be enjoyed and studied, no? Am I sounding like Melvin? If so, don't take it as such!

[David_Tepper]

Joey C. -

I have not see the greens at St. Andrews in person. I have probably played 40 or so links courses in GB&I and have played in conditions where it was so windy the balls were oscillating on the greens.

It might be possible that the greens on the Old Course are, as I understand it, so very large that they can still have plenty of areas to locate the pins in relatively flat spots. That is just a theory. Does it make sense to you? 

DT

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

It seems to me that a study of links golf greens would be one component of a complete exercise in learning about the various types of greens that can be built, whether undulating, flat, built up, ground level, fescue, bermuda, bent, windy or otherwise.  My interpretation of the list that Tom included in the AoaGC is meant to be a primer, kind of like a recommended summer reading list.  Seeing all of the greens on the list will give you a fairly accurate picture of what is possible under the varying climates, conditions and locations applicable to each course.

If you break down the list, you'll see examples of the following:

Southern U.S.
Irish Links
Scottish Links
Australian Sandbelt
U.S. Oceanside
U.S. Parkland
Heathland
U.S. Prairie
and others

[Joey Chase]

Joey C. -

I have not see the greens at St. Andrews in person. I have probably played 40 or so links courses in GB&I and have played in conditions where it was so windy the balls were oscillating on the greens.

It might be possible that the greens on the Old Course are, as I understand it, so very large that they can still have plenty of areas to locate the pins in relatively flat spots. That is just a theory. Does it make sense to you? 

DT

Yes, they are so massive that the contour is fun and not unplayable.  But Portrush has some more managable green sizes yet alot of contour as well.  As does Sandwich and countless others.  I guess I am just hung up on the idea that parkland or inland courses are capable of having heaving contours as the wind is less of an issue.  I seem to remember the wind giving the players fits a few years back at Augusta, with oscillating balls costing at least one player a stroke?  Not sure exaclty what year that was.  I know it may be an isolated situation, but it happens.  Albeit to a lesser extent than on the links, I still can think of many incredible greens contours that I would only imagine on a links.  

P.S.  You have played 40+ links and not the Old Course?  We need to change that!

[Joey Chase]

David:

It seems to me that a study of links golf greens would be one component of a complete exercise in learning about the various types of greens that can be built, whether undulating, flat, built up, ground level, fescue, bermuda, bent, windy or otherwise.  My interpretation of the list that Tom included in the AoaGC is meant to be a primer, kind of like a recommended summer reading list.  Seeing all of the greens on the list will give you a fairly accurate picture of what is possible under the varying climates, conditions and locations applicable to each course.

If you break down the list, you'll see examples of the following:

Southern U.S.
Irish Links
Scottish Links
Australian Sandbelt
U.S. Oceanside
U.S. Parkland
Heathland
U.S. Prairie
and others

Good point Sven, maybe I was reading too much into the "courses worthy of study" statement.  It just seems a proper list of great greens should include more links.  Not really such a complaint as a personal observation/ opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

In terms of green contouring at the back of Anatomy of a Golf Course;

ANGC
Ballybunion
Camargo
Charlotte CC
Commonwealth GC
Crooked Stick
Crystal Downs
Detroit
Forsgate
Garden City
Harbour Town
High Pointe
Hollywood GC
Long Cove
Merion
Morfontaine
NGLA
North Berwick
North Shore CC
Oakland Hills
Oakmont
Paraparaumu
Peachtree
Pebble
Pine Valley
Pinehurst No 2
Prairie Dunes
Prestwick
Rockport CC
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Worlington and Newmarket
Somerset Hills
St Andrews Old
TPC Sawgrass
Westhampton CC
Winged Foot
Woking
Yale

....so no Portrush!!  Royal Portrush did make it into the Routing section.

Simon:

Sorry to hear I missed Portrush, because I do think it's a great set of greens.  In fact, to quote from The Confidential Guide:

"It enjoys the advantages of both a majestic duneland site and, unlike many links, first-rate architectural design:  Harry Colt gave the layout great balance and variety and a great set of greens, as well as the spectacular holes, which an early-day architect might have found."

Luckily, Melvyn is not around this evening to respond to that last subtle dig!  I see I missed Machrihanish, too, which is one of the other great sets of greens on a links course.


Paul T:  The "Detroit" I was referring to was the North Course of Detroit Golf Club, not the C.C. of Detroit which we rebuilt two years ago.  Arthur Hills rebuilt the greens at Detroit G.C. twice in the 1990's, and I dare say the greens at the C.C. of D. might now be the better set.

[Sean_A]

I am surprised Prestwick is listed.  I think Deal has a good a set of greens as practically any links - same for Sandwich.  But to be honest, these links courses pale in comparison to places like Oakland Hills.  Its not even close if its contours were are talking about. Of course, there is more than one way to skin a cat and where links can really shine is in their sites and and what is going on around the greens - because often times the ground game has to be employed. 

One course I would add to the list is Beau Desert - very tricky and very difficult to read.  They are not conventionally good like Woking's, but are just as high quality all the same. 

Ciao

[Michael Goldstein]

I'm very surprised that Paraparaumu is on that list.

I can't offer much about Portrush sorry, one course I need to get back to for a few days.

[Dan Herrmann]

BTW - I've been watching Portrush today.  I think I'm in love with a darn golf course!