[Jeffrey Stein]

I am really surprised Chisholm Park in Dunedin does not come up in these lists or discussions.  It has ocean views, links conditions, and completely wild ground for golf.  I have heard criticisms that it is a bit short and perhaps the overall conditioning is not "top 25 material"  (they only have 2 green keepers last I heard), but  Chisholm park easily sits in the top 25.

[Leo Barber]

Hamilton most underated track in NZ.  It is seriously good design that needs little more than a chainsaw for it to be great.  Top 5 eh Goldy.

Ive played 9 of the top 10, 19 of the top 25 and walked 4 others.  Yet to play or see Harewood or Cromwell but their marketing consultant, Grant Saunders, believes they are worthy of inclusion.

Others for consideration would be Balmacewn (Otago GC) and Chisholm (great course which certainly doesnt play short when that wind blows - which is does often) which should both definately be in there with Wanganui and possibly Rotorua there and there abouts.  Two links tracks, Nelson and Mahia which Goldys sidekick JP raves about are on my list to play.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for inviting me into this thread. I obviously have some vested interests in this topic so was going to stay out for fear of perceived bias. But I am sure most of you know me well enough that you know I am generally very objective. So here is my top 25;

#1   Cape Kidnappers
#2    Paraparaumu Beach*
#3   Kauri Cliffs
#4   Titirangi
#5   Millbrook
#6   Wairakei
#7   The Hills
#8   Kinlock
#9   Oreti Sands
#10   Gulf Harbour
#11   Jack's Point
#12   Arrowtown
#13   Harewood
#14   Pegasus
#15   Otago GC
#16   Christchurch
#17   Chisholm Park
#18   Royal Auckland
#19   Cromwell
#20   Manawatu
#21   Royal Wellington (moving up soon!!)
#22   Napier GC
#23   Russley
#24   Nga Motu (New Plymouth)
#25   The Grange

(NB- Carrington is the only course I have not been to that may move into this list)

* I have great affection for PBGC, but wonder how long it will stay at this position? It is under threat from other very good courses with greater length and infrastructure for holding bigger events. It will always be one of the great members course though.

That the Golf Aussie boys have omitted Harewood and Cromwell is both a surprise and suggests to me they may not have visited them recently.

Royal Wellington is in the process of finishing the last 4 holes on the first 18. The seeding of these holes and about 3 others will happen in maybe Sept and the new 18 holes should be open in Feb 2013. At that point I expect the course will easily move into the Top 10, and possibly at 4 or 5. Those who harbour memories of the old layout should expect a big surprise with the new layout and design style.

Pegasus was a course I played this year and really enjoyed. Lots of fun holes, particularly on the front, and a nice experience.

It is my impression that for years there were really only about 5 decent courses in NZ and now there are about 15 which are very good, and a few world class. In other words the depth has really improved. This could be called the 'Robertson effect'. As has been eluded too here, there is quite a gap in the operating budgets of these courses – even of those in the Top 5. The green fees vary considerably too. For me perhaps a more interesting ranking would be value of money. Oreti, Harewood, PBGC, Chisholm and Nga Motu may top that list, and Kidnappers, Jacks, Gulf Harbour, Kauri Cliffs etc drop down some distance.

NZ is lucky to be in a renaissance period (no pun on Tom's work implied) with the new and renovated golf courses. There is now less need for kiwis to travel overseas for good golf. Indeed, NZ is now becoming a golf destination (look at what is happening in Queenstown).

It is just my hope that all the golf course design and renovation work done is NZ is good (like that done at Titirangi), because a rising tide floats all boats. We can't afford to have clubs waste money wasted on poor design (e.g the work on the 18th tees at PBGC for Tiger's visit that has now been abandoned). It only eats away at the fabric of confidence that Clubs and Committees need to ensure positive decisions are made to keep their courses in good shape.

Scott

[Kevin Pallier]

Kev, are you just teasing or are you seriously threatening some kiwi course reviews from your trip?

The 17 inch putt on 13 is still haunting me mate haha!

What do you think Pup or are you still deliberating over the 10th hole at Kauri?

Ash, any idea how this list was compiled (purely for interest).  Was it a reporters trip to NZ, a panel, a summary from other lists or simply Pup ghost wrting?

Leo

Since returning from NZ - I have been bogged down with work

I will be doing some reviews and it seems will need to take over from Pup in the Kauri thread to help finish it off.

I still go over our match at PBGC - reminds me of how great match-play is 

[Matthew Mollica]

Leo, Nelson is a cool little track. Nothing mind-blowing, but understated, and fun, on a good site. You'll be pleased you visited.

MM

[Dane Hawker]

I have played/walked the top 17

Glad to see Kinloch is up the list. Great course, I really hope the new owner puts some cash in.
Cape is safe at No1.
Carrington is a little underrated. If only they had constructed the greens better at the start.
Hills may jump up the list as it gets more established.
Wairakei is the most fun course to play.

 

[Ash Towe]

Kevin,

I believe the list was compiled by Brendan James, editor of Golf Australia Magazine.  I think it was stated that he had played all the courses.

[Mike_Clayton]

Dane,

Wairakei is more fun to play that Paraparaumu,Kidnappers or Arrowtown? I only walked it (the day Michael Campbell won the US Open) but it did not look to be in the same league as the other three for fun. Nor Titirangi but I have not seen that for 20 years.
It is hard to imagine anything down there being more fun than Arrowtown.

[Dane Hawker]

Wairakei can be a killer off the back tees or a happy hack off the white.
I'm not sure when they did the all upgrades with the creeks at Wairakei. Maybe it was after Campbells win.

Arrowtown is great. I have a green sown in the Arrowtown Colonial Bentgrass here in Auckland.

But theres something about Wairakei

[Grant Saunders]

I have played or am quite familiar with 16 on the list and have visited a couple of the others.

For me, Gulf Harbour, Clearwater and Terrace Downs would not make my list. Carrington (I would have to see it again to decide for sure) wouldnt be on there either.

Oreti, Arrowtown and Hamilton would be top ten at the expense of Pegasus, The Hills and Wairakei.

Interesting to see on Scotts list Manawatu golf club. Having just played there a couple of weeks ago, there is certainly some great natural movement going on. It would probably benefit from a tree removal program (it would most likely have to be in the form of a cyclone for it to actually happen).

Hopefully Leo sees this and is kind enough to post a couple of photos of a little course called Marton golf club. Great piece of land with some really good green sites. In particular the par 3 3rd. (I know you got a pic of that one Leo).  As per most NZ courses, trees now dominate but hopefully some day they will see the land for how good it is and embrace it.

[Leo Barber]

Its a shame but for many of the Club courses on that list, the sheer choking of the trees just distract from any architectural merit they might contain.  The Grange and Manawatu are two that come to mind on Scotts list that in trying to assess them ive just found really hard to decipher the "trees from the wood" so to speak.  Vegetation management second biggest problem facing nz clubs after the failure to cover depreciation..... for mine anyway.

Grant, Marton had some wonderful land and infinite potential.  An excess of trees dumbed it down enormously but thats simply an education thing facing us all.

The Par 3 you were referring to

[Tom_Doak]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kaitaia at all ... maybe no one bothers to go up there to see it.

I made the trip on my last visit down there.  It wasn't a great course, but it has one very good stretch of holes, and enough links spirit that it's hard to imagine there are 25 better courses in N.Z.

[Dane Hawker]

Haven't played Kaitaia in ten years but I remember it being a strong course.  There is a par 3 that can be either PW, 5 iron or 3 wood depending on the wind

Not many people get up that far Tom. Some good rural courses in Northland but the climate isn't kind to keeping grass alive during the summer.

Kerikeri has the best short par 3 in the country, The 13th hole.

[Michael Goldstein]

I haven't been to Kaitaia, it's on my list.

The other course that is top 25 is Otaki. Near PBGC and has some similar landforms.
 

[Scott Macpherson]

I haven't been to Kaitaia. I have played all the courses on the Kapiti Coast a lot (that's where I grew up) and Waikanae, Otaki, Levin, Foxton, Rangitikei all have holes, or sequences of holes, of interest. They all have areas where sand is the predominant soil type and call feel very 'links-like' to play. Rangitikei is the one I think may have the most potential...but I haven't been there in 10 years, so things may have changed.

[Grant Saunders]

I have played Kaitaia a number of years ago. From memory, it has some very good holes and sits upon a solid piece of land.

Unfortunately, due to the climate and resources, the only grass which can survive for most of the year is Kikuyu. While Kikiuyu can provide good playing conditions under intensive management, Kaitaia Golf Club arent positioned to be able to implement such a program. As a result, the course doesnt play in a manner which the land and weather conditions lend themselves to. It is very difficult to play running shots and utilise bounce as determined by the wind with the "stickey" nature of kikuyu. I think it was for this reason that the course wasnt included in the recent book covering the Links courses of the world (Scott can hopefully confirm this).

It is not dissimilar to Oreti Sands in many respects. However, Oretis location ensures the warm season grasses cant invade and nullify the critical requirement of being able to play the ground game.

[Leo Barber]

Interesting post Grant because yes "true links" the book didn't include a course north of Paraparaumu Beach.  In doing so it excluded all the other courses of the Kapiti Coast  and north which is on land where the sea has receded leaving sandy soil and linksland? (Otaki*, Foxton, Rangitiki, Marton*, Wanganui*, Waverley*, Patea, Hawara) and others on the East Coast (Mahia, Poverty bay* Ohope, Mt Maunganui*, Matarangi, Waipu) as well as those discussed north on the West Coast, (Nga Motu, Fitzroy*, Waitara*, Muriwai*, Kaitaia) to name a few off the top of my head.

I might have missed a few but surely some of those courses (those in astrix I have played) could have been considered as worthy as those south of Pram?  (Miramar Links? was an island until the earthquake of the mid 1800s which raised the ground it resides on).

No doubt Grant the "sticky" nature of the Kikuyu dumbs down its potential as a links (and I would 100% agree with you) but lets be consistent if we are to include the likes of Barwon Heads and Kennedy Bay as "true links".

[Grant Saunders]

Leo

I havent seen some of the courses you listed but I have played a couple that you have. I agree that the strictness of the criteria for the book eliminated for us what are in essence a number of courses that are more "links" than some that made it in. With the exception of Matarangi, all the others have probably never seen anything with earthmoving capability greater than a Massey 135 tractor and front end loader. They can all be held up as fine examples of minimalist design and construction and land fit for purpose.

Exposed sites, such as Kaitaia, which encompass small greens and rough close to greens are very much governed by the wind. The necessity for low shots out of the wind are fun to play and a great demonstration of trajectory and ball control. The dilemma created by being in a climate (and budget restriction) where the warm season grasses are the only viable option is a course where such shots cannot be relied upon to react consistently when hitting the ground.

Interestingly, I encountered this exact same problem when playing Gulf Harbour with its couch fairways and approaches. I recall playing the 16th (very exposed out on the cliff edge) and being faced with a moderate length shot in. The strength of the wind dictated the need for a low shot to be kept out of the wind. I played what I felt to be a very good shot landing about 10 yards shot and fully expected it to roll onto the green. The shot hit and gripped only running about 2-3 metres. Muriwai also suffers in my opinion due to the same conflict of grass type and exposure to the wind.

It will be very interesting to see how Tom Doaks new project goes regarding grass selections and hopefully he can perhaps put forth a few details on the subject if at all possible.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ash - Royal Wellington at #19 does not say much for the depth of courses in NZ. RW is a nice members course, but nothing special.

Sorry to come into this thread late, but that is a bit harsh considering NZ has a population of 4.3 million people.  To put it in a US context - NZ would be the 12th largest metropolitan area in the US by population.  In a ranking of the top 25 courses in Houston or Miami would you perhaps say the same thing about their 19th ranked course?

Not that I have seen too many courses in NZ - on my trip last fall I only had time to play CK and KC.

[Tom_Doak]

It will be very interesting to see how Tom Doaks new project goes regarding grass selections and hopefully he can perhaps put forth a few details on the subject if at all possible.

Grant:

The current plan is to go with fescue wall to wall, including the greens ... we may choose to include some Colonial bent in the greens, but not until the fescue is established.  Of course, we've got to get some holes built first, so we still have a little time to make the final decision.  I should be back down there in the first half of August to start working on getting some holes built. 

[Leo Barber]

Kerikeri has the best short par 3 in the country, The 13th hole.

Better than 13th at Kidnappers, 14th at Nga Motu, 10th at Chisholm Park, 16th Arrowtown, 7th Jacks Point, 3rd at Oreti Sands, 16th Pram Beach???  Just to name a few that come to mind that may be contenders with Kerikeri's 13th (pictured beneath bottom lhs, the lake beside the bunker looks interesting despite its lack of a fountain)

[Scott Macpherson]

Leo,

As you know, to be the best short par 3 in the country that lake MUST have a fountain in it, there should also be a waterfall added behind the green, perhaps a Crocodile pit and 8 piece Mariachi band playing. Oh, and did I forget the dancing girls....

scott

[Dane Hawker]

There is a waterfall behind the green but its probably overgrown now. The big lake looks overgrown, it used to be free of weed with crystal clear water. Used to snorkel in it at lunch time to get golf balls.

Wall to wall fescue sounds exciting at the Te Ari course. One chemical to control poa on the whole course.

[Grant Saunders]

It will be very interesting to see how Tom Doaks new project goes regarding grass selections and hopefully he can perhaps put forth a few details on the subject if at all possible.

Grant:

The current plan is to go with fescue wall to wall, including the greens ... we may choose to include some Colonial bent in the greens, but not until the fescue is established.  Of course, we've got to get some holes built first, so we still have a little time to make the final decision.  I should be back down there in the first half of August to start working on getting some holes built.  

Thanks for the reply Tom

It will be interesting as I cant think off the top of my head of another course in the region using fescue as a primary grass. There are a couple in the South Island that have used it with success. As Dane notes, chemical options exist to aid in the management but I feel the real benefits will be in the lower input nature and playability aspect. As I noted regarding a couple of courses, it is the playability of the grass choices that have hindered their success. Hopefully it will open the eyes of some in the area as to other options that exist in course management. Good choices can not only provide a product that is concerned with the golf experience but also take into account a future which will involve greater restrictions on available inputs.

13th at Kidnappers, 14th at Nga Motu, 10th at Chisholm Park, 16th Arrowtown, 7th Jacks Point, 3rd at Oreti Sands, 16th Pram Beach

Leo

That is a very strong list of short par 3s found throughout NZ. For the purpose of exploring it a little further, lets perhaps set the max distance at 130 metres. I would be inclined to add the 18th at Hamilton Golf CLub (120m off the white). Also, at the risk of being a little sentimental, the 8th at Waihi for me would be very close to being on the list. Hopefull Goldy chimes in with his thoughts as hes played a fair number of NZ tracks in recent times.

Im a big fan of Scotts idea about dancing girls on a hole.


The 16th Arrowtown



The 7th at Jacks Point


The 3rd at Oreti Sands (not a great photo sorry)



18th at Hamilton (photo from their website)

[Mike_Clayton]

I have not seen them for 20 years - but is there any argument for the par threes at Titirangi being the best set in New Zealand?
Presumably they compete with Kidnappers and Paraparaumu.

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