Doak 9s & 10s

[Tom_Doak]

Kevin:

Well, you got eight correct out of 14.  I haven't seen Woburn or Kennedy Bay -- though your score for Kennedy Bay is higher than my other correspondents have given it.

[David_Elvins]

Tom,

I wouldn't have thought you would give Kennedy Bay and 8.  It's  not a long way behind National Moonah or St Andrews Beach but I wouldn't have thought you would give them an 8 either. 


Am I right in saying that the descriptions you gave for each rating category were given after the ratings were done, to give the reader a general idea of what sort of courses was in each category?  Do you regret doing so, in hindsight? 

[Tom_Doak]

Am I right in saying that the descriptions you gave for each rating category were given after the ratings were done, to give the reader a general idea of what sort of courses was in each category?  Do you regret doing so, in hindsight? 

Yes, and no.  Some people take those definitions too religiously ... the number is a summary to give people a chance to weigh my opinions of different courses, so that the reviews themselves could concentrate on what I found interesting (or not).  If I rated one course a 7 and another a 6, then you know which one I think is better; if they're both 6's, then which you'd prefer is probably based on which of the reviews you find more interesting.  It's an inexact science, to be sure, because it's really all a matter of opinion.

[Sean_A]

I don't think your take on the differences between your scale and mine is entirely right, though.  It's not the case that one bad hole or one boring hole will keep a course out of the 10's, or there wouldn't even be a dozen of them; the most important thing is for the course to appeal to different kinds of golfers at different levels, and I just think that Ballybunion and Dornoch, for example, do that better than Royal County Down. 

I have never heard you describe a 10 in quite this way.  I much prefer this viewpoint to the "miss a hole..." deal which always rang hollow to my ears.  I can also see, more and more, why you give TOC a 10. 

Ciao

Tom

I recall getting you to admit that the ultimate difference between a 9 and a 10 was not of "overall quality" but more turning on personal issues.   I think you gave great short (not necessarily drivable) par 4s, interesting (though I am not sure what this really means) greens and probably great bunkering as examples of how a course can make it over the 9 hump compared to say a more straight forward great course (tee hee).

Ciao     

[James Boon]

The CG by the numbers:

10's - 13
9's - 16 (29 at 9 or higher)
8's - 45 (74 at 8 or higher)
7's - 90 (164 at 7 or higher)
6's - 152 (316 at 6 or higher)

Take your guesses as to how these numbers will be augmented by the moderns/reno's/resto's that will be added to the ranks.

As an aside, there are a ton of 6's and 7's that would seem to merit a bit more conversation around these parts.  Would love to see photos or writeups of the following:

Notts
Newcastle
Joondalup
Deepdale
Wachesaw Plantation
Vintage Club (Desert and Mountain)
Essex (Canada)
Asbridge
Isle of Purbeck
The Australian
Moseleum Springs
Landfall Club
Port Armor
Green Bay
Saticoy

Sven,

Here is an old write up of one of the Doak 7s mentioned above, from before I had the pleasure of joining Notts (I really must update it!):
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39814.0.html
Ran also gave it a great write up last year:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/notts1/
And if you ever fancy seeing it for yourself, just let me know...

Cheers,

James

[Tom_Doak]

there are a ton of 6's and 7's that would seem to merit a bit more conversation around these parts.  Would love to see photos or writeups of the following:

Notts
Newcastle
Joondalup
Deepdale
Wachesaw Plantation
Vintage Club (Desert and Mountain)
Essex (Canada)
Asbridge
Isle of Purbeck
The Australian
Moseleum Springs
Landfall Club
Port Armor
Green Bay
Saticoy

Sven,

Here is an old write up of one of the Doak 7s mentioned above, from before I had the pleasure of joining Notts (I really must update it!):
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39814.0.html
Ran also gave it a great write up last year:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/notts1/
And if you ever fancy seeing it for yourself, just let me know...

Cheers,

James

James:

Several of the courses in that list will fall in my next ranking.  Hollinwell (Notts) is secure, however.  It's been too long since I've been back there.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin:

Well, you got eight correct out of 14.  I haven't seen Woburn or Kennedy Bay -- though your score for Kennedy Bay is higher than my other correspondents have given it.

Tom

I suspect the key differences would include the Bandon duo of Old Macdonald and Bandon Trails. Also, the Australian courses of SAB, Kennedy Bay and Moonah all at one below what I posted ?

[George Pazin]

George:

I've always wondered if Tom's initial assessment of Oakmont as a 9, and not a 10, was due to when he reviewed it -- before the massive tree-clearance project at that club that's won many accolades among golf architecture nuts. For the most part, I think you can discern some common characteristics of his original 10s, and perhaps Oakmont was overly treed for his tastes.

I just figured he shot a big number...

In all seriousness, I haven't seen any of the other 10s in person, so Tom's analysis may be spot on. I do think Oakmont goes to 11, but then again, everyone is tiring of hearing me answer Oakmont to every question on here.

George:

I've never shot any number at Oakmont.  It's the only course in the top 50 in the world that I haven't played ... unless they have Whistling Straits in the top fifty.  I've walked it five different times, but never had a chance to play.  And I will admit that it would be hard for me to give any course a 10 rating, without playing it.  [In fact, it's the only course I rated a 9 I haven't played, and I would have to think a bit whether I rated any course an 8 that I haven't played.]

The reason it wasn't a 10 had to do with my perception of what made them tick.  Every time I was there, the only thing anybody would talk about was how brutally hard it was and how ridiculously fast they were maintaining the greens.  Those are just not the highest priorities of the courses that are rated 10's on the Doak scale, but you could say the same thing for some of the other 9's. 

I've always noted the same, with much chagrin. Indeed, I think much of the truly special nature of the course is overlooked because of this. Many who have played the course only 1 or 2 times note it's too difficult for regular play - yet those who've been back many times learn how to play it, so that's clearly not true.

Hope you get to play it someday.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Here is an old write up of one of the Doak 7s mentioned above, from before I had the pleasure of joining Notts (I really must update it!):
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39814.0.html
Ran also gave it a great write up last year:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/notts1/
And if you ever fancy seeing it for yourself, just let me know...

Cheers,

James

James:

Thanks for you kind offer.  I have grand plans for a trip to England and Scotland, but life seems to be preventing me from fulfilling the dream at the moment.  As long as there is no expiration date, I would be honored to play Notts (or Hollinwell) in your company at some point in the future.

I enjoyed your write-up and photo tour.  Its evident that the place struck your core, and to hear that you've joined adds an enhanced tone to the enthusiasm with which you described it.

All the best,

Sven

[David Harshbarger]

Here's a maybe-working link to a map in Google Maps of the 10's, 9's and 8's posted earlier.  The icons are supposed to be:

Blue=10
Red=9
Green=8

But, they all show as green on my iPad, but the correct color in Google Earth.

Map of Doak 10's, 9's and 8's

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

Regardless of whether or not the color coding works, the map is awesome.  Thanks for putting it together.

Sven

[David Harshbarger]

Sven, thanks.  Try the link again.

[Nigel Islam]

Thank you all for the information, but David that map is very cool.