Doak 9s & 10s

[Nigel Islam]

Does anybody have a list of the courses listed as 9s & 10s in The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses handy? I obviously do not have a copy, but I am just interested. I think I know all the tens, but I was more curious about those listed just below. I did look in the archived posts prior to posting this. I seem to recall there may be two versions of the ratings as well.

Thanks

[Jud_T]

Nigel,

It's called Confidential for a reason...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1886947090/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1340637462&sr=8-1&keywords=confidential+guide&condition=used

[Rich Goodale]

Jud

I particularly like the highest offerring price--$2,647.95 PLUS $3.99 shipping!

Nigel

This site is anything BUT confidential.  I'm sure if you spend enough time on the crack GCA.com search engine you'll find a thread or three that will give you the information you require.

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point

Note that the above list is what was published in the book, as of 1995.  I've said several times I would give Sand Hills a 10 today.  I gave it a 9 back then -- which was a pretty good number for a course that hadn't opened yet.


The 9's, I don't think I can do off the top of my head.  I think there were about 20-25 of them ... it didn't get all the way to what I would vote on as a top-50-in-the-world course.

P.S.  Don't pay $2000 to get the book.  There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

[Stephen Davis]

Tom,

You just made my day!

Thanks!

[Michael Dugger]

I'd buy that book!

[Jud_T]

OK listmakers, we might as well start debating the book now.  

[Terry Lavin]

Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point

Note that the above list is what was published in the book, as of 1995.  I've said several times I would give Sand Hills a 10 today.  I gave it a 9 back then -- which was a pretty good number for a course that hadn't opened yet.


The 9's, I don't think I can do off the top of my head.  I think there were about 20-25 of them ... it didn't get all the way to what I would vote on as a top-50-in-the-world course.

P.S.  Don't pay $2000 to get the book.  There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

That's great news.  Many of us will be anxious to see if there is any difference in tone, attitude, edge, whatever you want to call the overall ballsy way it was written.

[Niall Hay]

Does anybody have a list of the courses listed as 9s & 10s in The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses handy? I obviously do not have a copy, but I am just interested. I think I know all the tens, but I was more curious about those listed just below. I did look in the archived posts prior to posting this. I seem to recall there may be two versions of the ratings as well.

Thanks

There were twelve courses in the book which got a 10.  They were:

St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=36690.0

[Niall Hay]

Nigel:

The 9's, I don't think I can do off the top of my head.  I think there were about 20-25 of them ... it didn't get all the way to what I would vote on as a top-50-in-the-world course.

Surely someone on the site has the list of 9’s?  20-25 of them?

[Niall Hay]

.

 There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

Wish it was coming sooner....

[Howard Riefs]

That's great news.  Many of us will be anxious to see if there is any difference in tone, attitude, edge, whatever you want to call the overall ballsy way it was written.

The yardstick will be whether Tom's own courses are exempt from inclusion.

Either way: Super news.

[Jim Sherma]

Tom - when will you start taking names for the pre-orders?

[Anders Rytter]

Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point

Note that the above list is what was published in the book, as of 1995.  I've said several times I would give Sand Hills a 10 today.  I gave it a 9 back then -- which was a pretty good number for a course that hadn't opened yet.


The 9's, I don't think I can do off the top of my head.  I think there were about 20-25 of them ... it didn't get all the way to what I would vote on as a top-50-in-the-world course.

P.S.  Don't pay $2000 to get the book.  There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

Fantastic! Can't wait to read it.

[Phil McDade]

I think Augusta National -- remember this was 1985 -- and Oakmont were both 9s.

[Jud_T]

I would recommend a first run somewhere north of 1500...

[David Harshbarger]

P.S.  Don't pay $2000 to get the book.  There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

A la Michelin stars, how much would a club think a 7 is worth vs. a 6, or an 8 vs. a 7, now that Tom Doak 2014 is a very different animal than Tom Doak 1995?  I would have to think clubs would be extremely interested, and a la the Michelin guides, if ever there were to be a tool to drive the GCA vision of golf down into world's clubhouses, the Confidential Guide's Doak number is it.  Especially, if it is revised regularly.  Tom, maybe it's suggestion/overstating is far afield of your intent, but you could redefine how the golf community talks about courses.  "Have you played every 8+ yet?". "they are doing a renovation with the hope of being a 9.". "They let their conditioning go and now they are a 7.". "The members felt if they opened up playing corridors and cut back trees, they had a chance to move up to a 6 next year.  That would make them only 1 of 2 Doak 6's in the area."

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm grateful it "won't cost nearly as much" as the $2,000 first editions.

I think a long introductory essay/preface by Tom about the changing craft (and business) of gca -- both personally and collectively -- would be all the new material I'd need.  

I think a case can be made for the original assessments (with dates indicating when they were written) being more valuable (and interesting, historically speaking) than updated and (implictely) more lucid or in depth or fair or (dare I say it) 'accurate' assessments of all those many golf courses.  

Best
Peter

[Niall Hay]

P.S.  Don't pay $2000 to get the book.  There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

A la Michelin stars, how much would a club think a 7 is worth vs. a 6, or an 8 vs. a 7, now that Tom Doak 2014 is a very different animal than Tom Doak 1995?  I would have to think clubs would be extremely interested, and a la the Michelin guides, if ever there were to be a tool to drive the GCA vision of golf down into world's clubhouses, the Confidential Guide's Doak number is it.  Especially, if it is revised regularly.  Tom, maybe it's suggestion/overstating is far afield of your intent, but you could redefine how the golf community talks about courses.  "Have you played every 8+ yet?". "they are doing a renovation with the hope of being a 9.". "They let their conditioning go and now they are a 7.". "The members felt if they opened up playing corridors and cut back trees, they had a chance to move up to a 6 next year.  That would make them only 1 of 2 Doak 6's in the area."

More like Robert Parker and his wine ratings.....

[Ulrich Mayring]

You can't have Tom Doak visiting all these courses all the time, so how would you revise it regularly? If the answer is something like "a panel of experts" or "internet voting", then you'll quickly be YAR (yet another ranking) a la Golf Digest Top 100 and whatnot.

There is simply no value in another ranking system unless it either

a) is compiled by an unquestionable authority of world wide renown or
b) draws adequate content from huge numbers of contributors in the way Wikipedia does it.

Both of which I do not see coming along very soon.

Ulrich

[David Harshbarger]

You can't have Tom Doak visiting all these courses all the time, so how would you revise it regularly? If the answer is something like "a panel of experts" or "internet voting", then you'll quickly be YAR (yet another ranking) a la Golf Digest Top 100 and whatnot.

There is simply no value in another ranking system unless it either

a) is compiled by an unquestionable authority of world wide renown or
b) draws adequate content from huge numbers of contributors in the way Wikipedia does it.

Both of which I do not see coming along very soon.

Ulrich

Unlike Robert Parker, whose taste buds can't be taught, the Doak ranking process could readily be systematized and taught to a cadre of evaluators, a la Michelin.  The authority oversees and the process, and approves the evaluators and evaluations. It has his stamp on it.  Think Michelin.  There's no M. Michelin any more, but those stars they do matter.

As for b.) have Ran startup the GCA.com ratings and send us out to collect and report.  Could be good, but nothing like what the Doak name, scale, and Guide could do. 

[Niall Hay]

Unlike Robert Parker, whose taste buds can't be taught, the Doak ranking process could readily be systematized and taught to a cadre of evaluators, a la Michelin.  The authority oversees and the process, and approves the evaluators and evaluations. It has his stamp on it.  Think Michelin.  There's no M. Michelin any more, but those stars they do matter.
 

Completely agree that you can’t teach taste with wine, food, fashion or in golf either…fact is both TD and RP are hugely influential men (both American in an International industry) with unique taste and opinions on their given field. Like it or not the opinions on the cult following are impactful. From a previous thread about the same thing, “I do LOVE the banter about RP and his obvious tendencies the average wine drinker has never heard of him….it’s the enthusiasts who really follow wines to point where RP rating means much. In the whole scheme of golfers if I posted is Parker the Doak of wine many in the wine world would ask exactly what Donal did “who is Doak?”…fact is the average wine drinker doesn’t follow Parker religiously and the average golfer doesn’t follow Doak (we GCA are not your average golfers nor apparently your average wine drinkers), but the enthusiasts and (at least golfing purists) follow Doak’s every move (along C&C and others). Both have well regarded opinions and both have created scales in which we rank courses/wines….now perhaps Doak is a little more traditional and that’s the opposite of Parker but their influence has been felt industry wide. Just as the average golfer will recognize a good course (though probably recognize the Nicklaus or Palmer design and possibly a RTJ by name)….the average wine drinker doesn’t care just as the average golfer doesn’t care….it’s only the hard core who even care to debate…..which is what makes it so much fun….”

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47400.25.html

[Niall Hay]

So who has the list of 9's?

[Tom_Doak]

You can't have Tom Doak visiting all these courses all the time, so how would you revise it regularly? If the answer is something like "a panel of experts" or "internet voting", then you'll quickly be YAR (yet another ranking) a la Golf Digest Top 100 and whatnot.

There is simply no value in another ranking system unless it either

a) is compiled by an unquestionable authority of world wide renown or
b) draws adequate content from huge numbers of contributors in the way Wikipedia does it.

Both of which I do not see coming along very soon.

Ulrich

Unlike Robert Parker, whose taste buds can't be taught, the Doak ranking process could readily be systematized and taught to a cadre of evaluators, a la Michelin.  The authority oversees and the process, and approves the evaluators and evaluations. It has his stamp on it.  Think Michelin.  There's no M. Michelin any more, but those stars they do matter.

As for b.) have Ran startup the GCA.com ratings and send us out to collect and report.  Could be good, but nothing like what the Doak name, scale, and Guide could do. 

David:

I tend to agree with Ulrich on this one.  I don't think my "taste buds" can be systematized, or surely someone else would have managed to do it before now.  A book such as The Confidential Guide can never be much more than a snapshot in time, and I have no desire to try to visit 100 or more courses every year on the pretense that I'm trying to keep the book more up to date.  However, I've developed an idea of how to do a new edition of the book that maintains its high standard and covers as much ground as possible, and that's where I'm headed.  

I'm sure that I will be asked why I would want to pursue such a project, and whether I am not worried that it might potentially have a negative effect on my status in the business today and in the future.  I've thought about that a lot over the past few years, but I've decided that since my reputation will always be tied up with the book, for better AND for worse, the least I could do is to make it more available so that people will make their judgments based on their own reading rather than on hearsay.  [That, incidentally, is the same argument Ron Whitten made to me 20 years ago, when he said I might as well go ahead and publish it, instead of letting people vilify it in private.]  I've also realized that I miss writing and I miss seeing other people's courses, and I need to get back to both hobbies.

In the end, it's my baby, and I'll do with it what I want to.  But it's also something I love, and I wouldn't do anything to ruin it.  I will not be surprised if it's controversial, but I have no desire to start fueling that controversy right now.  Y'all will just have to wait a year or two to see what I'm up to.

[Peter Pratt]

OK, I'll confess. I did this back in 1999, when Prince told me that the world would end.

10

Royal Dornoch, Scotland
St. Andrews (Old), Scotland
Muirfield, Scotland
Ballybunion (Old), Ireland
Royal Melbourne (West), Australia

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Shinnecock Hills
Pinehurst #2
Merion (East)
Crystal Downs
National Golf Links of America

9

International (5 courses):

Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog), Dominican Republic
Royal Worthington and Newmarket, England (9 holes)
Rye, England
Royal County Down, Northern Ireland
Royal Portrush, Northern Ireland

US (12 courses):

Pebble Beach
Augusta National
Oakmont
Winged Foot (West)
Seminole
Oakland Hills (South)
San Francisco
Prairie Dunes
Riviera
The Golf Club
Shadow Creek
Sand Hills

8

International (24 courses):

St. George’s, Canada
Mid Ocean, Bermuda
Cruden Bay, Scotland
Carnoustie, Scotland
North Berwick, Scotland
Prestwick, Scotland
Royal Troon, Scotland
Turnberry, Scotland
Royal Lytham and St. Anne’s, England
Ganton, England
Woodhall Spa, England
St. George’s Hill, England
Sunningdale (Old), England
Swinley Forest, England
Walton Heath (Old), England
Royal St. George’s, England
Portmarnock, Ireland
Lahinch, Ireland
Durban, South Africa
Hirono, Japan
Kawana (Fuji), Japan
Commonwealth, Australia
Kingston Heath, Australia
Royal Adelaide, Australia

US (21 courses):

Olympic (Lake)
Muirfield Village
The County Club (Open)
Baltusrol (Lower)
Chicago GC
Southern Hills
Harbour Town
Quaker Ridge
Inverness
Los Angeles CC (North)
Garden City
World Woods (Pine Barrens)
Long Cove
TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium)
 
Yale University
Forest Highlands
High Pointe
Kapalua (Plantation)
Desert Highlands
Whitinsville (9 holes)
Stonewall