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Mark McKeever

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2012, 11:49:41 AM »
Wow.  I never knew Ross had plans for ANGC.  Wild thought for that piece of property!


Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2012, 02:35:48 PM »
That story of Ross's interest in doing the ANGC project has been around for years.

A rumor that he was interested and actually being invited to submit plans are two different things. David Owen wrote a very well researched history of ANGC, and there is nothing about Ross being involved at any point, and he had access to the club's archives. There have been a couple of other good histories of ANGC, including one by Cliff Roberts, and there is no mention of Ross either. At the time they purchased the property in 1931 Ross was semi-retired.

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2012, 02:45:44 PM »
"A rumor that he was interested and actually being invited to submit plans are two different things."


Tom MacWood:

True enough. As I said the "story" that of Ross's interest in doing ANGC has been around for years. But your right rumors start for all kinds of odd reasons. One new one might be that HH Barker designed Merion East or that C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam designed it and all Wilson and his committee was responsible for doing was constructing it to someone else's plan. Another new one might be that Willie Campbell designed Myopia. All kinds of inaccurate analyses can start rumors at any time.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 02:50:57 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »
My first thought was any course that still has sand greens.....or is really untouched, like cape
Arundel
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 04:42:28 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2012, 12:38:01 PM »
The historic "asset" I would like most to find is the Merion East PRE-construction topographical map Wilson and his committee were using to route and design the course in 1911. It is very important to me for two separate and distinct reasons:

1/ I know it existed but to actually have it would be the very earliest PRE-construction topographical contour map I have actually ever seen that is PROVABLY PRE-construction (so far the earliest provable one I've seen is Pine Valley's in 1913.

2/ If it has a date on it and the date is say Dec. 1910 or Jan 1911 and it has a scale on it making everything on it measurable and that triangle where #15 green and #16 tee is measures narrower and higher than it is now, then I will be able to date when the earliest it could have been that Francis made that fix in that area and went to Lloyd for permission to do it.

I just do not believe that fix was made by Francis before Nov. 10-15, 1910 and I never have, and for a variety of good reasons----the best one being there has never been any evidence at all that he had been appointed to anything at that point. According to Francis himself he was appointed (he said added) to the committee---and the evidence from the club and Wilson himself is the committee was appointed in January 1911. When one starts trying to move or take actual events out of their factual timeline, with careful analyses, the related problems with doing that begin to show quite easily----and what becomes obvious is the existence of a number of examples of what are called "Logical Fallacies."
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 04:48:16 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2012, 11:01:36 PM »
Tom D & Tom M,

Perhaps they're confusing ANGC with ACC.

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2012, 11:09:51 PM »
Pat:

The story or rumor that Ross really wanted the ANGC contract had been around for years. I doubt anyone with any knowledge of it confused that with what Ross did at ACC.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2012, 11:20:01 PM »
Pat:

The story or rumor that Ross really wanted the ANGC contract had been around for years. I doubt anyone with any knowledge of it confused that with what Ross did at ACC.

TE,

Then why was the question posed ?

Do you have any direct knowledge that Ross submitted plans to ANGC ?

Did you ever read or hear Bob Jones or Cliff Roberts state that Ross had submitted formal plans ?

Wanting a contract and submitting a design are two vastly different things.


Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2012, 11:25:34 PM »
"A rumor that he was interested and actually being invited to submit plans are two different things."


Tom MacWood:

True enough. As I said the "story" that of Ross's interest in doing ANGC has been around for years. But your right rumors start for all kinds of odd reasons. One new one might be that HH Barker designed Merion East or that C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam designed it and all Wilson and his committee was responsible for doing was constructing it to someone else's plan. Another new one might be that Willie Campbell designed Myopia. All kinds of inaccurate analyses can start rumors at any time.

TEP
Speaking of Barker...you've told us Lloyd had nothing to do with bringing in Barker, to disregard the several articles that claim that, it was the non-golfer Connell who engaged him, and then a couple of days ago you told us the source for those articles contradicting your Connell scenario was Connell himself. Please explain.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 11:32:27 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2012, 11:35:34 PM »
"TEP
You've told us Lloyd had nothing to do with bringing in Barker, to disregard the several articles that claim that, it was the non-golfer Connell who engaged him, and then a couple of days ago you told us the source for those articles contradicting the Connell story was Connell himself. Please explain."


Tom MacWood:

As is usual, I have no idea what you're trying to say of even trying to ask. I suppose you're general inarticulateness might have something to do with it.

Could you try to rephrase and explain your question more clearly, if in fact, you even have a legitimate question or even asked one?

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2012, 11:54:37 PM »
TEP
You are on the record of saying Merion & Lloyd had nothing to do with engaging Barker. A couple of days ago this is what you said about the articles that claimed Lloyd engaged Barker.

"I really don't see the purpose of trying to disqualify an entire article because of a couple inconsequential errors. There were two other similar articles written in November, in the Phila Recorder and the Phila Inquirer, that also have small errors. Should we throw those articles out too? The main problem you have with the 11/24 is the announcement Barker had been secured to lay out the course. Actually in some ways the 11/24 article got more right than the other two. For example it reports MCC had secured 117 acres (as opposed to 130 acres in the other two) and the cost per acre of $726 per acre. I think it is obvious the authors of all these articles were getting information from an inside source. We have gone over the articles endlessly, I see no need to go over the same ground again."


Dan, Mike, Tom MacWood:

I don't want to rehash all of the old debate on here about when Merion East was routed and designed but if one carefully considers what those two November newspaper article say in the over-all and considers it all only in connection with the available facts leading up to those articles a slightly different scenario might develop.

Very few seem to consider what else was going on with that move of MCC's golf course from Haverford to Ardmore (I started another thread recently about the man who essentially controlled most all of it---Lloyd). This was a project that did not just involve moving the MCC course from Haverford to Ardmore, it involved a very significant real estate development. Without the latter the former probably not only wouldn't have happened, it probably couldn't have happened.

And it is interesting and I think very necessary to consider what-all those November articles says---eg they mention as much about the real estate development as they do the new golf course.

Of course it is logical to ask who it was who took those stories to the newspaper in November and why. I think it's probably more logical it was Connell of HDC rather than MCC or Lloyd. After-all the deal with the golf course was secured at that point but there was something else that needed some real traction from there----the sale of numerous real estate lots on the remaining 221 acres. That aspect is the real meat of the deal that Lloyd delivered to HDC. He not only negotiated a great deal for MCC at half the per acre price HDC payed for that 338 acres but Lloyd pretty much brought a ready made real estate buyer pool to HDC----the members of MCC.

We have all the lot buyers of that residential real estate development over the next ten years or so and the fact is considerably more than half of them were MCC members and/or business partners of Lloyd's. Scattergood, for instance, bought something like ten lots.

The other thing this scenario tells me is that virtually nothing at all happened on that land between July 1, 1910 and the middle of November 1910 concerning the planning of the golf course and therefore if Connell was the one who went to the newspapers when the agreement between MCC and HDC was secured in the middle of November he was just using information about the course from back in June when Barker was hired by him to do a course sketch which was noted by MCC's search committee to the MCC Board in their report on July 1, 1910.

This scenario also fits well with the fact there is virtually nothing at all mentioned anywhere about the actual planning of the design of the golf course between June, 1910 and January, 1911 when the Wilson Committee was formed.

Another interesting fact contained in the MCC board and report correspondences is that the Search Committee once its job was done of finding a site (November 15, 1910) morphed from being chaired by Lesley to being chaired by Lloyd in the end of November 1910. The next morphing of that special committee appears to have occured in January 1911. It looks to me with the foregoing from the board minutes and MMC report correspondence that it was Horatio Gates Lloyd who as the chairman of the morphed Site Committee selected Wilson to chair the next one as Lesley had selected Lloyd to take over as chairman of the last one.


Please explain.

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 12:05:34 AM »
"TEP
You are on the record of saying Merion & Lloyd had nothing to do with engaging Barker. A couple of days ago this is what you said about the articles that claimed Lloyd engaged Barker."



Tom MacWood:

So what is your question? Can you possibly ask a concise and intelligent question? I would prefer not to have to go through this endlessly unspecific "question asking" game playing with you.

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 12:12:12 AM »
TEP
I think you are having difficulty comprehending your own contradiction. You told us Connell engaged Barker, and to disregard the articles claiming Lloyd engaged Barker, and then you told us the source for those articles was Connell. It is a little complicated, and you are very simple man.

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2012, 12:14:28 AM »
Please explain your apparent contradiction.

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2012, 12:22:04 AM »
Tom MacWood;

I would sincerely like to have an intelligent discussion with you but do you have any idea how completely inarticulate you really are on this website?

WHAT APPAENT CONTRADICTION ARE YOU ASKING ME ABOUT?   ??? ::)


Both you and David Moriarty have dealt in complete irrelevancies in your premises, contentons and conclusions on this website on the subject of Merion for close to ten years now.

You need to do a whole lot better than that if you're going to ask relevant and intelligent questions about the architectureal history of Merion in the future.

Can you do that? It not, it is pointless to try to intelligently respond to you!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 12:28:49 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2012, 12:24:16 AM »
Are you telling us Connell was the source for the November '10 articles claiming Lloyd engaged Barker?

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2012, 12:34:48 AM »
"Are you telling us Connell was the source for the November '10 articles claiming Lloyd engaged Barker?"


For God's Sake, after about ten posts, thanks for a question to the point. Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying given the fact that there is nothing whatsoever in the record about anyone doing anything at Ardmore between June 1910 and November 1910 as far as the development of an architectural plan for Merion East.

If you think there was something, then please point out to me any evidence of it other than those two November 1910 articles that were likely inspired by Connell to sell residential real estate lots.

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2012, 12:41:40 AM »
If Connell engaged Barker why did Connell tell everyone Lloyd engaged him?

Scott Warren

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2012, 03:32:25 AM »
Aaaaaand we're off and racing...

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2012, 08:52:19 AM »
Probably because Connell thought in November 1910 that Lloyd might use Barker. In June Connell did engage Barker. The Search Committee's report to the MCC board in the end of June mentioned that Connell had engaged Barker to do a sketch. The report also said that was done not on their account but on HDC's. Connell gave MCC the June 10, 1910 letter that Barker had written to him (Connell) If MCC had hired Barker they wouldn't have specifically said in that June 1910 report that they hadn't engaged him.

I think this simply shows that nothing at all had been done regarding planning a golf course between June 1910 and November 1910 when HDC and MCC agreed to a deal for 117 acres and simultaneously Lloyd wrote a letter to the MCC membership asking them to subscribe to a stock offering involving the remaining 221 acres that would become a real estate development to the west of the golf course.

This move to Ardmore did not just involve a golf course, it involved a lot more than that and those newspaper articles reflect what else was involved other than a golf course. Lloyd was involved in both the golf course and the real estate development, Connell was only involved in the real estate development; Nevertheless, there isn't an iota of evidence from MCC that Barker had anything to do with the golf course. There was no mention from MCC of anything to do with the planning of the golf course until January 1911. Some apparently don't seem to care what MCC said about this back then but Merion does and so do I.

On the other hand, it is certainly possible that Lloyd or Allen Evans or anyone else from MCC involved in that 117 acre deal did give those newspapers those stories in November 1910. Apparently you seem to think Lloyd or MCC did. If so, let me ask you something. If Lloyd or MCC gave that story to the newspapers in November 1910 then do you believe the IMO piece "The Missing Faces of Merion" is accurate in saying the golf course had already been planned by Macdonald/Whigam with help from Lloyd and Francis, at that point?

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2012, 10:30:54 AM »

Probably because Connell thought in November 1910 that Lloyd might use Barker. In June Connell did engage Barker. The Search Committee's report to the MCC board in the end of June mentioned that Connell had engaged Barker to do a sketch. The report also said that was done not on their account but on HDC's. Connell gave MCC the June 10, 1910 letter that Barker had written to him (Connell) If MCC had hired Barker they wouldn't have specifically said in that June 1910 report that they hadn't engaged him.

I don't what you've been smoking, but you've got to get me some.

Your logic escapes me. He deliberately lied to the press because he thought Lloyd might use Barker? The news accounts also claim Lloyd engaged Macdonald & Whigham. Was Connell thinking he might use them as well? What other lies to Connell give to the press?

By the way the MCC report does not say Connell engaged Barker, it only says he paid for him. Connell did not play golf, there is no way he knew who to bring in. The MCC report also says Griscom reached out to get CBM. CBM's letter was mentioned in the report, but was not presented to the membership, for whatever reason. We later discover that letter was addressed to Lloyd.

I don't believe that is exactly what David's essay says. Could you point to the paragraph where he says the course had been planned by M/W.... 


Mark Bourgeois

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »
A list, in his hand / under his signature, of all the courses Mackenzie designed or worked on, preferably dated towards the end.

Any memoranda or other club documents, or any legal / court docs, that shed light on ANGC's failure to pay Mac or his widow.

The complete WW1 records of the Special Works Park and School.

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2012, 05:08:12 PM »
"Your logic escapes me. He deliberately lied to the press because he thought Lloyd might use Barker? The news accounts also claim Lloyd engaged Macdonald & Whigham. Was Connell thinking he might use them as well? What other lies to Connell give to the press?"


Tom MacWood:

Of course my logic escapes you because it is both reasonable and logical and apparently you never have been!

Now you're inferring that Connell 'deliberately lied to the press?' I think that'a a bit far-fetched. In case you have never realized it the reporting of the prospect of some future event that does not happen in the future is not exactly considered to be a lie, at least not to someone who has a modicum of a logical and reasonable mind.

I think those newspaper articles reported that because at that point nothing at all had yet been done with the planning of the golf course. That would not begin at least until Horatio Gates Lloyd took that land (and more) into his own name by deed on Dec. 19, 1910 and shortly after that in January 1911 the Wilson Committee was appointed and the planning of Merion East began.

There is absolutely nothing in the actual MCC records that denies any of that or ever has. The story in the Tolhurst book about a trip to the UK in 1910 and for seven months did not first occur until about seventy years after the events of the creation of Merion East. For some odd reason a few of you on this website do not seem to understand the significance of that or you just refuse to admit it. I can understand why you would refuse to admit it---eg at the time that IMO piece was written none of you who were involved with it and who reviewed it before it was presented were remotely aware of that fact and its significance. Now apparently you simply wish to avoid that too and avoid admitting it.

Obviously to a few of you the idea of just admitting a mistake you make is anathema.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:15:26 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2012, 05:26:41 PM »
"I don't believe that is exactly what David's essay says. Could you point to the paragraph where he says the course had been planned by M/W...."


Tom MacWood:

David Moriarty said you, Nacarrato, Mucci and Morrisset were the only ones to review that IMO piece before it was presented on here so I would expect you to know what it says, but perhaps you don't. If you don't remember what the essay said you might try reading it again but if that's too much trouble for you, the following are a series of points he made in the essay that infer and contend that Merion East's plan was completed in 1910 and essentially the only responsibility of the Wilson Committee was to construct the course to someone else's plan in 1911.  







"While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes.


Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan. After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course.

While the moving remembrance noted that Wilson directed the redesign of Merion in 1923-24, it did not mention what is commonly considered his greatest accomplishment: the initial design of Merion East. Indeed, I have been unable to locate any record to indicate that Hugh I. Wilson actually considered himself the designer of the Merion East. Nonetheless, history has since credited Wilson with the design of the course, a remarkable feat considering that Wilson had no design experience at the time.

Or so the story goes. But as is often the case with creation stories, this one is a blend of myth and reality. In reality, Wilson neither planned the routing nor conceived of the holes at Merion East. The course was planned months before Merion even appointed Wilson and his “Construction Committee.” Wilson and his Construction Committee were not appointed to design the course or conceive of the holes, but were to do what the name of their committee implies, construct the golf course. They laid the course out on the ground and built it according to plan.

Finally, while the original routing plan for Merion East may never be located, we can piece together enough of the early history to know that H.H. Barker sketched the first routing plan, but it may have been superceded by C.B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigham, who played a major role in planning the course. Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd also contributed.

Francis and Lloyd had been fine-tuning the layout plan before Merion secured the land. Francis described his epiphany as having occurred while he was looking over a “map of the property.” He also noted that the land Merion gave up “did not fit at all in any golf layout.” So by this time the planning process was well underway, and the “swap” allowed them to better fit the last five holes into the plan for the routing. “It was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion – with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore avenue – but the last five holes were another question.” The Francis land “swap” allowed them to complete the routing plan. All before November 10, 1910. So, by mid-November 1910, the layout had already been planned.


The Committee’s trip to NGLA probably occurred in January of 1911, the same month Merion finalized the purchase of the land and appointed the Construction Committee.

According to Merion lore, Wilson traveled to NGLA to meet with Macdonald, and then studied the great courses overseas, and then designed and built Merion East. This makes for a great story and helps explain how a complete novice with no prior golf course design experience could have designed one of the greatest golf layouts in history, one that seamlessly incorporated many of strategic underpinnings of the great courses abroad. But it is most likely mistaken.

1. Merion already had a routing plan. Francis had been putting the finishing touches on the layout plan months before, when he resolved the routing issue.

Another source of the legend may have been a letter written by Alan Wilson 1926, not long after Hugh Wilson’s unfortunate death. The letter was apparently written to a member who was planning to write a history of Merion, and in it Alan Wilson makes the case that his recently deceased brother deserved the lion’s share of the credit for the architecture on both of the courses, at least in comparison to the other members of Wilson’s Committee. He also wrote the course was “homegrown” and designed by the committee without out the help of an outside architect. But he did exempt help that had been provided by those “two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton.” As was discussed above, even Alan Wilson acknowledged that these two men Alan Wilson were a great help. Tom Paul posted an excerpt of the letter on the Golf Club Atlas website in a post that was long ago deleted.

Alan Wilson wrote, “the land for the East Course was found in 1910 and as a first step, Mr. Wilson was sent abroad to study the more famous links in Scotland and England.” Alan Wilson’s version directly contradicts Hugh Wilson’s own account of the timing of the trip, and is not supported by any contemporaneous evidence. While the course may have been found in 1910, this is only part of the story. As is explained above, the routing was planned in 1910 as well. This was before the land had been purchased and before the Construction Committee had been appointed. Moreover, as a “first step” Wilson did travel to study the great golf holes, but it was not overseas, but rather to NGLA to learn from Macdonald and Whigham. The actual overseas travel would come later.

The mistake regarding the relative timing of Wilson’s study trip might have been born from the ambiguous then mistaken newspaper accounts, all written after the course opened; or the misinterpretation of Hugh Wilson’s mention of the trip in his 1916 essay; or the inaccuracy in his brother’s quick coverage of the issue, written fourteen years after the fact; or a combination of these.
But another factor may have been that, there is an element of truth to this portion of the legend. Hugh Wilson did work on the course when he returned from his trip in 1912, and as was described by Far and Sure, he did incorporate some of what he learned overseas into the course. Even more than that, Wilson was surely involved in working out the particulars of the routing plan, as this would necessarily have been part of learning how to build the holes from Macdonald and Whigham.

So it would not have been a big leap to have started giving Wilson credit for coming up with the routing and hole concepts in the first place, especially if one does not fully understand how significant the routing and hole concepts are to the quality and integrity of a golf course.
Given their extensive involvement in the planning, at least some of the original holes at Merion East should be based on Macdonald’s and Whigham’s concepts for the holes, or at least Wilson’s construction of them. Wilson’s versions of a Redan hole and an Alps hole are good examples of this. These holes were key fixtures in Macdonald’s repertoire, and their existence at Merion is strong indication that Macdonald and Whigham were responsible for at least some of the plan. Further, while my research is far from complete or conclusive, my preliminary analysis of the original holes suggests that other holes and features may have based on Macdonald and Whigham’s view of how the principles of the great holes should be applied in Merion’s natural conditions. In other words, while it may not have looked like it on the surface, the initial version of Merion East may have had Macdonald and Whigham’s concepts at its core. But this analysis is outside the scope of this essay, and will have to wait until another day.

What of Francis’ description of the quarrymen blasting off the top of a hill “a few days” after the land exchange, so that the 16th green could be built? According to Francis’ description of events, the entire matter, from the time of Francis’ late night epiphany to the time the quarrymen blasted the green site, took place within a couple of days. But two separate legal entities could never have completed a formal exchange of titles in a couple of days, especially since Merion’s land was encumbered. Francis’ recollection of the timing of the timing may have been hyperbole, but if not, then it makes sense only if there was no formal land exchange, but rather a change to the terms made before Merion actually optioned the 117-acre parcel in November 1910. And if the hilltop was actually blasted a few days after this alteration, then it was when the Haverford Development Company controlled the land, not Merion Cricket Club. Given Lloyd’s close relationship with both, this seems entirely possible.

While I have no physical record of the letter, it was described and quoted by Tom Paul on the Golf Club Atlas website in a post that has been deleted.

Excerpts from the Alan Wilson article were posted by Tom Paul some time ago on the Golf Club Atlas website, but then deleted.

In or around December 2006, Tom Paul wrote about this longstanding Merion rumor on the Golf Club Atlas website. His post increased my skepticism about the timing of Wilson’s study trip abroad, and sparked by further research into the matter. Wayne Morrison, an expert on William Flynn and a member of Merion, recently claimed on golfclubatlas.com that, according to Hugh I. Wilson’s daughter, Wilson actually had a ticket on the Titanic but was detained, and luckily missed the boat."
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:33:31 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2012, 06:55:25 PM »

If Lloyd or MCC gave that story to the newspapers in November 1910 then do you believe the IMO piece "The Missing Faces of Merion" is accurate in saying the golf course had already been planned by Macdonald/Whigam with help from Lloyd and Francis, at that point?


TEP
I've read the essay a number of times, and what you're claiming is not what it says. He says Barker produced the first routing, and it may have been superceded by Macdonald and Whigham, or it may not have been. He is clearly admitting he doesn't know for certain, neither do I, and neither do you. So stop pretending like you have some special insight into this mystery because clearly you don't.

As an example of your insight, you believe a relatively small time real estate agent, who did not play golf and had no experience with the press was calling the shots over Lloyd, a shrewd businessman, one of the great financiers of American history, and the man who was bank-rolling both sides of the project, as well Griscom, an international shipping magnate and well connected golfer, not to mention Robert Lesley, another shrewd businessman, former newspaper editor and one of the most respected golf executives in the country. This is a perfect example of condition I call the Merion brain cramp, where relatively intelligent and logical people suspend rational thought in order to force a legend down the throat of history.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 06:58:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

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