In your opinion, what is the most sought-after.......

[TEPaul]

.......historic golf architecture "asset" that might still be out there somewhere but is yet to be found? After a while I'll construct my own list----what is yours?

[Mac Plumart]

Raynor's routing of Cypress springs to mind.

[Tom_Doak]

#1 on my list would be C.B. Macdonald's notes about the great holes in the U.K., which he supposedly gave to Seth Raynor.

Someone told me once that they knew who had them now, but I have no way of verifying whether they do, in fact, still exist.

[TEPaul]

"Someone told me once that they knew who had them now, but I have no way of verifying whether they do, in fact, still exist."


TomD:

Someone also told me once that they knew who had them now, but I have no way of verifying whether they do, in fact, still exist either.

To me some of this stuff is probably something like world-class archaeological exploration---the search alone is pretty energizing but just so maddening sometimes.

[Bill_McBride]

..

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom, what about Wilson & Company's notes from speaking with Macdonald, if any did in fact exist?  I am not trying to whack the hive here, I just think it would be interesting.

That picture of the letter from Emmet to Travis was pretty neat to look at, and also kind of spooky in its own right.  There was something spare and elegant about it. 

[Niall Hay]

Raynor's routing of Cypress springs to mind.

The Holy Grail for GCA

[Brian Ross]

Raynor's routing of Cypress springs to mind.

+1

[RJ_Daley]

Tillie's flask of inspiration, Ross's pipe, Maxwell's spitoon, and Alister's little black book.

[PThomas]

"Someone told me once that they knew who had them now, but I have no way of verifying whether they do, in fact, still exist."


TomD:

Someone also told me once that they knew who had them now, but I have no way of verifying whether they do, in fact, still exist either.

To me some of this stuff is probably something like world-class archaeological exploration---the search alone is pretty energizing but just so maddening sometimes.

if those notes are a GCA Ark of the Lost Convenant, someone with far more computer savvy than me needs to put either one of your faces on an Indiana Jones picture!

[Rick Shefchik]

Personally, I'm most interested in finding William Watson's and/or Donald Ross's hole designs for the White Bear Yacht Club. I'd love to know who did what there.

[JC Jones]

Who were the 2 other bidders besides Ross for Seminole.

[Tom MacWood]

Personally, I'm most interested in finding William Watson's and/or Donald Ross's hole designs for the White Bear Yacht Club. I'd love to know who did what there.

IMO that would be a fruitless search because there is little evidence Ross did much of anything there.

[Rich Goodale]

Ran Morrissett's handicap certificate.

[Rick Shefchik]

Personally, I'm most interested in finding William Watson's and/or Donald Ross's hole designs for the White Bear Yacht Club. I'd love to know who did what there.

IMO that would be a fruitless search because there is little evidence Ross did much of anything there.

Tom, we've been over this before. There's no evidence of anybody's work there, because no plans have been found -- probably because of a clubhouse fire in 1938. I did find a newspaper article from 1916 in which Ross told a Minneapolis reporter he was going over to WBYC for the purpose of "re-arranging" the White Bear course. Donald Ross didn't visit golf courses for free, and would not use the word "rearrange" if he wasn't going to do some work.

[TEPaul]

Rick:

Unfortunately clubhouse fires and such resulting in lost historic material are not uncommon. But experience is showing that is not the only place important material that reflects the history of golf courses can be found. Newspapers can be really helpful but unfortunately experience is showing they can be misleading sometimes. In that vein I think the context of them has to be analyzed carefully.

I do remember the WBYC discussions on here and like many of these subjects it seemed to come up somewhat inconclusive.

What I would suggest is you look to the families of the people who were central to that club back then. I did that with one of them I know from WBYC but it came up pretty empty. I'd keeping trying that avenue if I were you.

And don't get to bogged down arguing this with Tom MacWood. As most know he has his own unique take on these kinds of things and most of us who've dealt with him over the years feel he is not very objective about various things. I've learned he tends towards unrealistically trying to promote the people and things he's found something on-----a good example is HH Barker and Merion East. It's probably just a matter of him trying to promote himself.

[Mac Plumart]

Ran Morrissett's handicap certificate.

 

[Terry Lavin]

Photos of Melvyn in a cart.

[John Foley]

If the Raynor,s plans or CBM's hole descriptions are in a private persons hands why would that someone not make them available? I dont get it.

Raynor's plan for Cypress Point is the obvious

how about a few more

Donald Ross plans for Augusta National & Kittansett

Pete Dye's sketches / layout for Sand Hills

Emmett's plan for Leatherstocking (OK somewhat of a regional bias)

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I will respond to your notes in Pat Mucci style below (but without the color!).

If the Raynor,s plans or CBM's hole descriptions are in a private persons hands why would that someone not make them available? I dont get it.
   -  Some people like to keep valuable things to themselves.  Especially if the provenance of why they have them to begin with, might raise questions.

Raynor's plan for Cypress Point is the obvious
   -  I have also heard rumors that this is in private hands.  See above.

how about a few more

Donald Ross plans for Augusta National & Kittansett
   -  Who ever said Ross did a plan for Augusta National?  I've never heard that.

Pete Dye's sketches / layout for Sand Hills
   -  I know for a fact that Pete Dye never did a layout for Sand Hills.  (And, no, I'm not hiding them myself.)  Pete never saw the site until he played the course a few years ago.  You probably misunderstood when I posted here years back, that Mr. Youngscap had offered Pete the job, because he felt he owed it to him after the success of Firethorn -- but he only offered him the job over the phone, without giving him any info on the site.  If Pete had been to the site, he would probably have done the course.

Emmett's plan for Leatherstocking (OK somewhat of a regional bias)

[Tom MacWood]

Rick
I don't understand the remaining doubt. I don't have my info in front of me, but I believe I have at least three separate contemporanous reports saying Watson laid out the course, including one from the long time Commodore (I assume equivalent to club president) from the mid-20s. I forget his exact words, but bascially he characterized Ross's involvement as minor...advice. Ross never took credit for WBYC, as opposed to Inerlachen and Minikhada. Portraying this as some big mystery I think does Watson a disservice.

[Tom MacWood]

Donald Ross's plans for ANGC? I have not heard that one before.

[TEPaul]

That story of Ross's interest in doing the ANGC project has been around for years.

[Howard Riefs]

Indisputable evidence that would put to rest the Pine Valley train vs. hunting debate.

[John Foley]

John:

I will respond to your notes in Pat Mucci style below (but without the color!).

If the Raynor,s plans or CBM's hole descriptions are in a private persons hands why would that someone not make them available? I dont get it.
   -  Some people like to keep valuable things to themselves.  Especially if the provenance of why they have them to begin with, might raise questions.

Yeah I figured that

Raynor's plan for Cypress Point is the obvious
   -  I have also heard rumors that this is in private hands.  See above.

how about a few more

Donald Ross plans for Augusta National & Kittansett
   -  Who ever said Ross did a plan for Augusta National?  I've never heard that.

I read that in the process both Mackenzie & Ross we're engarded - since Ross was most interested in the site and the appointment - I assumed he was on site and drew up plans - that may not have been the case - what was the process for Ross at Augusta? Did Jones ask him - Did Ross lobby and get nowhere? 

Pete Dye's sketches / layout for Sand Hills
   -  I know for a fact that Pete Dye never did a layout for Sand Hills.  (And, no, I'm not hiding them myself.)  Pete never saw the site until he played the course a few years ago.  You probably misunderstood when I posted here years back, that Mr. Youngscap had offered Pete the job, because he felt he owed it to him after the success of Firethorn -- but he only offered him the job over the phone, without giving him any info on the site.  If Pete had been to the site, he would probably have done the course.

Tom - very interesting story - I thought he was more engaged as the potential architect

Emmett's plan for Leatherstocking (OK somewhat of a regional bias)