[Patrick_Mucci]

The manufactured/constructed land form to the left rear of # 12 green has been sodded and now serves as a back tee for # 7 and can also be used as an alternate tee for # 13.

This helps bring the "hotel" bunker complex back into play on # 7.

While the tee shot was blind, to a degree, it's even more blind from this back tee since some of the "guiding" features are no longer visible from the new back tee.

With respect to the 13th hole, it's a really neat and different shot which allows for additional hole locations not well suited from the right side tee due to the slope of the green

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, does that tee make the iron shot to 13 play more like the shot into 7 at the Old Course?   I think you have mentioned that as a goal of yours. 

[TEPaul]

Bill McB:

Maybe ten years ago #13 had a sort of curious bunker on the high right side of the green with light rough or chipping height to its right. About ten years ago they took that bunker out and expanded the green considerably to the right, so yeah, now it mimics the 7th at TOC much more than it used to.

I do not know if Pat is going to eventually take credit on here for that new tee that can be used for #7 and #13 but knowing Pat, he might. If he does I think I will check with NGLA to see if THEY give him that kind of credit. 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McB:

Maybe ten years ago #13 had a sort of curious bunker on the high right side of the green with light rough or chipping height to its right. About ten years ago they took that bunker out and expanded the green considerably to the right, so yeah, now it mimics the 7th at TOC much more than it used to.

I do not know if Pat is going to eventually take credit on here for that new tee that can be used for #7 and #13 but knowing Pat, he might. If he does I think I will check with NGLA to see if THEY give him that kind of credit. 

He did mention it to me several years ago, for what THAT'S worth!   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, does that tee make the iron shot to 13 play more like the shot into 7 at the Old Course?   I think you have mentioned that as a goal of yours.  

Yes,

As to credit, do you know of anyone other than myself who advocated for introducing/reintroducing the left side tee on # 13 and also using it for a new back tee for # 7 ?

If anyone does, could you please provide me with their name/s

Thanks

[TEPaul]

Bill:

He mentioned it to me more than several years ago. At the same time another idea of his was to make a back tee farther back on the other side of the driveway on #18.

Maybe he did think of these things first, but I think it would be interesting nonetheless to see what the club says about it.

In my opinion, one of the most effective things one can do with these kinds of things is to just let others take credit for one's ideas if that will serve the purpose of moving things along more expeditously!

[Patrick_Mucci]

He mentioned it to me more than several years ago. At the same time another idea of his was to make a back tee farther back on the other side of the driveway on #18.

TE,

That's incorrect.

I advocated taking the tee back on # 18 on the same side of the driveway that the current tees reside, so as to retain the same angle of attack

Maybe he did think of these things first, but I think it would be interesting nonetheless to see what the club says about it.
MAYBE ?

Who, or whom, speaks for the club ? 
 
Like the restoration of the back of the 11th green to putting service, which I accomplished through Joe McBride, I'm less concerned with getting credit than you are with me not getting credit. 


In my opinion, one of the most effective things one can do with these kinds of things is to just let others take credit for one's ideas if that will serve the purpose of moving things along more expeditously!

Looking for credit had nothing to do with moving things along expeditiously.
I advocated for this concept for years.

The premise/theory that CBM designed # 13 to replicate the 7th and the 11th holes at TOC was my idea and my idea alone.

That the tee could also serve # 7 was also my idea.

I know it pains you that my idea was adopted, but such is life. .

[jkinney]

Enough, Gentlemen....Many fine golfing minds have played a role in these changes. There are more sdjustments to note, to wit:

- The regular tee on St. Andrews (#7) has been lowered about 2', and the Road Hole bunker (Devil's a..hole) has been enlarged and, I suspect, deepened.
- A fine new back tee for the Walker Cup has been installed for Punchbowl (#16) left on the hill below Redan (#4) to the left of and well behind Narrows' (#15) green. Apparently Punchbowl's tees to the right of Narrows green were a post WW 11 phenomenon.
- The regular tee for Punchbowl on Narrow's right has been eliminated and is now fairway. The back tee there to the right is now the regular tee.
- There won't be a tee built across the road on the 18th, as it is wetlands.
- As to the restored tee adjacent to the left of Sebonac's  (#12) green that serves as a great new back tee for St. Andrews (#7), it would make a fantastic tee for Eden (#13), given the enlargement of Eden's green to the right. But how does one handle the traffic jam of one tee for two holes , especially when that tee is basically an extension of Sebonac's green ?

[Bill_McBride]

Enough, Gentlemen....Many fine golfing minds have played a role in these changes. There are more sdjustments to note, to wit:

- The regular tee on St. Andrews (#7) has been lowered about 2', and the Road Hole bunker (Devil's a..hole) has been enlarged and, I suspect, deepened.
- A fine new back tee for the Walker Cup has been installed for Punchbowl (#16) left on the hill below Redan (#4) to the left of and well behind Narrows' (#15) green. Apparently Punchbowl's tees to the right of Narrows green were a post WW 11 phenomenon.
- The regular tee for Punchbowl on Narrow's right has been eliminated and is now fairway. The back tee there to the right is now the regular tee.
- There won't be a tee built across the road on the 18th, as it is wetlands.
- As to the restored tee adjacent to the left of Sebonac's  (#12) green that serves as a great new back tee for St. Andrews (#7), it would make a fantastic tee for Eden (#13), given the enlargement of Eden's green to the right. But how does one handle the traffic jam of one tee for two holes , especially when that tee is basically an extension of Sebonac's green ?

The Walker Cup is all two ball, so might not be so bad.   Play from #13 tee takes precedence perhaps. 

[TEPaul]

"Who, or whom, speaks for the club ?  "

Pat:

In this context, if you have to ask, then obviously you have no idea! Honestly, is there any good reason you can think of why I should tell you on this webstie? 


What the Hell do you think this website is, some kind of "Arab Spring" information "Free-for-all" on significant golf clubs in America?  

[TEPaul]

"The Walker Cup is all two ball, so might not be so bad."


Bill McB:

No it isn't and it never has been! Do you know the deep history of why the Walker and Ryder Cups are the way they are? 

[Bill_McBride]

"The Walker Cup is all two ball, so might not be so bad."


Bill McB:

No it isn't and it never has been! Do you know the deep history of why the Walker and Ryder Cups are the way they are?  

It certainly was in 2005 (Chicago) and 2007 (Royal County Down) when I attended.   Morning foursomes and afternoon singles.   Don't know much about before or since, but think I saw the same at both Merion and Royal Aberdeen on TV.  

[Tom Culley]

Bill you are correct that there are only ever two balls being played at the Walker Cup. Four foursomes matches both mornings, followed by eight singles on day one, and ten on day two.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill you are correct that there are only ever two balls being played at the Walker Cup. Four foursomes matches both mornings, followed by eight singles on day one, and ten on day two.

Thank you, I was questioning my sanity!   

[Sebonac]

The Punchbowl tees to the right of the 15th green were not a post WW II phenomenon.  The two tees were there in the map that was included in MacDonald's book.  In that map....it shows the options from what was the green tee (the tee that was recently removed).  From that tee you could try to carry the trap....or you could play to the left to the wide fairway if the carry was too daunting.  In fact, on that map, there are no tees to the left of the 15th green for 16.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

No need to question your sanity when I question something you say! 

I guess I thought you were speaking of something called a Two Ball. But yes whatever the match type in the Walker Cup---eg Singles or Foursome there are only two balls in play. I guess I'm just a stickler for the actual names of some of the forms of play in golf which can get pretty odd lilke a Threesome as opposed to a Three Ball or Best Ball or Four Ball. Even the term foursome is misunderstood by many thinking its four people playing at the same time rather than four playing two balls.

Here's one for you that I've played a lot of in Cup and team matches. What is the form of play when four golfers play against one another at the same time as we do in the Bailey and Lesley Cup matches?

[jkinney]

The Punchbowl tees to the right of the 15th green were not a post WW II phenomenon.  The two tees were there in the map that was included in MacDonald's book.  In that map....it shows the options from what was the green tee (the tee that was recently removed).  From that tee you could try to carry the trap....or you could play to the left to the wide fairway if the carry was too daunting.  In fact, on that map, there are no tees to the left of the 15th green for 16.

If so, then I stand corrected. I was told by someone whom I thought to be of unimpeachable authority that such was the case. Personally I far prefer the tees to the right of Narrow's green.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

No need to question your sanity when I question something you say! 

I guess I thought you were speaking of something called a Two Ball. But yes whatever the match type in the Walker Cup---eg Singles or Foursome there are only two balls in play. I guess I'm just a stickler for the actual names of some of the forms of play in golf which can get pretty odd lilke a Threesome as opposed to a Three Ball or Best Ball or Four Ball. Even the term foursome is misunderstood by many thinking its four people playing at the same time rather than four playing two balls.

Here's one for you that I've played a lot of in Cup and team matches. What is the form of play when four golfers play against one another at the same time as we do in the Bailey and Lesley Cup matches?

Either a Round Robin or a Cluster Fuck. 

In England (and Muirfield too) there are clubs called "two ball clubs."   Except at specified times, all play must be either singles or foursomes, with just two balls in play in each group.   Rye, Deal, Littlestone, Sandwich and Huntercombe are examples.   

[TEPaul]

Sebonac:

The right tees on #16 were the originals I believe (you can even see the safety bunkers behind them).

Mark and JC:

You guys are beginning to identify and perhaps prove through this aerial stagger Mark has presented some of the evolutionary changes that I don't think anyone has ever documented very well. A good example is that bunker on the high right of the 13th green that has now been removed to allow the green to be extended well to the right (to more closely mimic the 7th and 11th at TOC.

And yes, JC, good pick up on your part about how sort of rustic and natural the place used to look. I remember it from back then. That's a good example of the way a lot of the courses of that crowd used to keep them back then. The term used was "Shabby Chic."

Those greens all did get rounded off in that era when the tri-plex green mowers were used so much. Those mowers just couldn't get into some squared off corners so they just rounded them out.

As for Macdonald himself with NGLA in his later years, the details of all that are important, really important, despite that at least one on this website refers to it as 'gossip.' It is not gossip at all but an important component on the entire history of NGLA and the details of the life of a most important man in the history of golf course architecture.

Another interesting fact of NGLA is how often and how quickly CBM seemed to change the look of some of the bunkers on the course. Over a year ago we found some really interesting on-ground photos of the course back then that no one had seen before or at least perhaps in about 85 years. Half of them were labelled Shinnecock but they were NGLA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Enough, Gentlemen....Many fine golfing minds have played a role in these changes. There are more sdjustments to note, to wit:

- The regular tee on St. Andrews (#7) has been lowered about 2', and the Road Hole bunker (Devil's a..hole) has been enlarged and, I suspect, deepened.
- A fine new back tee for the Walker Cup has been installed for Punchbowl (#16) left on the hill below Redan (#4) to the left of and well behind Narrows' (#15) green. Apparently Punchbowl's tees to the right of Narrows green were a post WW 11 phenomenon.

It's on the 1926-1928 map

- The regular tee for Punchbowl on Narrow's right has been eliminated and is now fairway.

The right side tee on # 16 is still there.  I played it this morning

The back tee there to the right is now the regular tee.?

- There won't be a tee built across the road on the 18th, as it is wetlands.

The wetlands issue seems absurd to me.
There should never be a tee built across the road as it dramatically alters the angle of attack into the sloping fairway.
A tee should be built behind # 17, 50 yards east of the current tee/s

- As to the restored tee adjacent to the left of Sebonac's  (#12) green that serves as a great new back tee for St. Andrews (#7), it would make a fantastic tee for Eden (#13), given the enlargement of Eden's green to the right. But how does one handle the traffic jam of one tee for two holes , especially when that tee is basically an extension of Sebonac's green ?

The same way it's handled at Maidstone and other clubs were tees/footpads are shared.
It should be easy to do during the Walker Cup since traffic will be minimal

And, the footpad could be easily enlarged and expanded
Some great hole locations are available from the tee to the left of # 12 green to the left side of the 13th  green.

There Is nothing like NGLA.
It is incredibly unique.
Macdonald was a genius
You could spend a week just studying each hole.

Some of the fine tuning has produced stunning results in terms of play

[TEPaul]

“- As to the restored tee adjacent to the left of Sebonac's (#12) green that serves as a great new back tee for St. Andrews (#7), it would make a fantastic tee for Eden (#13), given the enlargement of Eden's green to the right. But how does one handle the traffic jam of one tee for two holes , especially when that tee is basically an extension of Sebonac's green ?”


Jkinney:

In basic or generally architectural planning it might seem that kind of thing could not work----but it does and there are enough good examples to prove it.

The best I know of out there is the combined melded tees (perpindicular) of #4 and #16 at Maidstone. The way it works is any group coming off #3 or #15 can easily tell who ever gets there first has the honor or right of way, so to speak. The way it works is actually very impressive as a sort of common-sensical reinforcement of golf etiquette. When groups arrive basically together it is actually very impressive in its mannerly-ness and deferral.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jkinney

You can make it work like GCGC's 4th and 17th hole work, or by simply alternating tees.

When you play 13 left, play 7 up and when you play 7 back, play 13 right

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That is not a very good example but the 4th and 16th tees at Maidstone are because there is no altenating---they both just share the same overall tee---at least for the men.

Patrick, why is it I've had to explain the details of the finer points of golf course architecture to you for so long?

It is frankly disheartening to me to realize as I get older the more I realize how people (such as yourself) are so much stupider than I ever previously wanted to adimit!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

That is not a very good example but the 4th and 16th tees at Maidstone are because there is no altenating---they both just share the same overall tee---at least for the men.

It doesn't matter if there's an alternative or not, they share the same tee, as does # 4 and # 17 at GCGC, and that's the core of the issue.

Patrick, why is it I've had to explain the details of the finer points of golf course architecture to you for so long?

It is frankly disheartening to me to realize as I get older the more I realize how people (such as yourself) are so much stupider than I ever previously wanted to adimit!

That's known as the first stage of senility, it's when you think people who are really much smarter than you, are stupider  than you.
It's also known as being delusional

[Sebonac]

Pat...the right green tee is not there anymore.  It was removed over the winter.  There were always two tees on that side.  The one closer to the 15th green and closer to the pond was the Green tee...and the one further back and to towards Bullshead Bay was the usual Red tee.  Now the one that is further back and to the right is the only tee on that side.  That would be what you played from if you played from that side.  Bill did a pretty good job of disguising the tee that was removed after 85+ years.

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