How would you define the game of golf….

[Melvyn Morrow]

My God, Scott Warren will just not leave it alone

Melvyn,

It's 4am in England. Did you have a kip after your 1.30am post and then wake up to resume hostilities, or are you pulling an all-nighter?!

He has already done a search on me plus my family, spreads doubts yet can offer no prove to support his comment just because I refuse to react to his questions. Had he come to me in the first place I would have been happy to answer any relevant questions he may have had re my family and my views on the game.

Does it matter what time threads are posted, is it important, or perhaps some may now understand why I do not respond to his comments anymore.   

Still another pointless reply to an honest topic.

[Tom Culley]

Tom

I sincerely believe it’s a watered down variation of the game as it allows the player to always be fresh and relax against the fatigue incurred with walking. If riding had been regarded as part of the game then we may have seen it in the 19th Century. Riding is a copout, it was never part of the game for 6 Centuries. So why is it now, why has such a thing been allowed when it flies in the face of the tradition of the game?

Melvyn,

Carts were not used in the past 6 centuries because they did not exist, not because of a moral objection by those playing.

Would you care to explain which technological advancement of the last 6 centuries you believe are acceptable and which are not?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Melvyn,

Carts were not used in the past 6 centuries because they did not exist, not because of a moral objection by those playing.

Would you care to explain which technological advancement of the last 6 centuries you believe are acceptable and which are not?


First of all Golf is a game about walking and thinking. Technology is good if used to sustain or offer better reliability re the equipment, but it falls foul if it removes the human involvement in the game.

Example The 19th Century saw the game of golf maturing into a reliable game with the Gutty ball offering some 50-60 years of stability thus allowing clubs (equipment) to be consistent. By the 1890’s we had reliability at reasonable prices that allowed more than just the rich to play.

I am not against technology as long as it does not replace the human commitment or involvement in the game.

Carts and distance aids do just that they are outside aids.

To see a player fresh and not in any way fatigued because he rides does reflect upon his true performance, remembering that first and foremost golf is a walking and thinking game. Utilising any form of distance aids is again against the natural progression of the game over its 600 your years history. These are modern aids, actually no they are not aids in truth. I suppose we could call them crutches to support an uncommitted player who has not embraced the full quality of the walking thinking game of golf. The reason is down to the individual player, but for whatever reason they use them they are not involved in the walking thinking game that has evolved as Golf. A variation of the game, yes, no dispute, but it’s not golf.

In this country if you drive a car your licence defines if you are committed to driving an all sing and dancing manual gearbox car or an automatic box car. It affects your insurance cover too. However get caught driving a manual with an automatic licence and you will be up in front of the courts.
It’s a question of skill or defining if you have the skill to drive both or just an automatic box, being of course the easier of the two, being automatic, but no stigma associated with an auto licience.

So why not call cart ball, cart ball and walking thinking golf, golf as it has been for some 600 years and yes utilising the latest technology, manmade material to offer the game good reliability but not at the cost of advancing a players score, of helping him by being able to afford the latest equipment to achieve that better score.

All technology and modern materials are acceptable and we should embrace new technology, but not if they help lower a golfers score or allow his ball to travel further. Those achievements should come from the development of skill by the player

It’s all just a question of honesty and controlling technology for the good of the game and not just the unscrupulous players.  Our Governing Bodies have never taken the time to study the consequences of their actions by allowing carts and technology to run nearly out of control.

The cost to golf for their inadequacies  can be found with longer courses, destruction of some great Holes and Courses, the beginning of the demise of 36 Holes in a Day golf with a good lunch break. Also longer playing (slow play) times thanks to seeking carts, clubs on cart, cart tracks, Range finders, Markers, booklets or the worst of all the pacers of yardage.  The fast natural instinctive game as you walk to your ball is becoming a thing of the past, minds cluttered by distance which in the final analyst our own brain/mind and eyes over rules when we take that final look prior to striking the ball – yes our brains overrule all outside aids and working on eyes/brain co-ordination and not what a book electronic gadget or even pacing might have produced.

Why can’t cart players and distance aid junkies just admit that’s theirs is a variation of the game and call it so – or is it all just down to plain vanity, do they feel that their variation is second best to golf but just do not want to admit it? Where is the crime in calling things exactly what they are instead of confusing everyone. Is there something wrong in being called a CartBall Golfer vs. A Golfer?

Hence I feel definition of the game is important     

PS Tom, whatever your opinion thanks for asking a question associated with this topic, I hope I have answere your question

[Kalen Braley]

I think this thread has gone past the point of no return.  I can't imagine any new view points from either side of the aisle quite frankly.

Ran, please spare us all and give this thread the heave-ho!

[Jason Thurman]

First of all Golf is a game about walking and thinking. Technology is good if used to sustain or offer better reliability re the equipment, but it falls foul if it removes the human involvement in the game.

You present this as though it's a fact, but it's wrong. First of all, golf is a game about getting the ball into a hole.

You say:

Example The 19th Century saw the game of golf maturing into a reliable game with the Gutty ball offering some 50-60 years of stability thus allowing clubs (equipment) to be consistent. By the 1890’s we had reliability at reasonable prices that allowed more than just the rich to play.

and then...

All technology and modern materials are acceptable and we should embrace new technology, but not if they help lower a golfers score or allow his ball to travel further. Those achievements should come from the development of skill by the player

The evolution of the gutty ball did far more to lower scores and help golfers hit further than carts or distance aids ever did. It sounds like your philosophy is pretty arbitrary.

To see a player fresh and not in any way fatigued because he rides does reflect upon his true performance, remembering that first and foremost golf is a walking and thinking game.

You've literally never played in a cart, correct? Because this is just ridiculous. I know very few serious golfers whose performance improves when they ride in a cart. Their enjoyment might go down, but walking really isn't THAT fatiguing, especially on the flat links courses you consider the only pure form of golf.

I tend to play worse in a cart because of the constant stopping and starting and sitting and standing. It's very hard to get loose and settle into a good rhythm.

It’s all just a question of honesty and controlling technology for the good of the game and not just the unscrupulous players.  Our Governing Bodies have never taken the time to study the consequences of their actions by allowing carts and technology to run nearly out of control.

You're completely wrong on this front. The governing bodies have ABSOLUTELY studied the consequences of allowing carts and distance aids, and have found them wildly popular in many areas and a huge source of revenue for the game. Also, do you truly believe a person who rides in a cart is "unscrupulous"? That seems a bit like me calling someone who enjoys peppers and onions on their pizza a crook.

Melvyn, the real problem with your case is that it's centered around a premise that you made up and yet use as the factual basis behind all your arguments. I love to walk and believe golf at its highest levels should be played on foot, as I agree it's a purer connection to how the game was originally conceived. But I just can't fathom the idea that riders are unscrupulous, damaging the game, or cheating. Nor can I draw the same conclusions about people who drive an automatic transmission, as you apparently did at one point in your post.

Carts allow more people to play golf, generate more revenue, and have virtually no effect on pace of play except on courses with extremely long transitions between holes, on which they speed up play. They also don't help golfers score. Do you have a single fact-based argument against them, aside from the "that's not the way it was always done and it shouldn't be done that way now" argument? I understand that argument, but then, it seems we should also return to the featherie ball and ban women and minorities. Personally, I'd rather have golf today, carts and all, than golf 120 years ago.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen

And all this from the country that boast to be the land of the free. Seems somewhat at odds with that notion, but then that is why we all love you, it’s that sense of humour, slightly off beat at times but I am certain it’s because of the way you spell ‘humor’

Jason

When was the first recorded Hole? Oh yes and what was the ball made off?

I have tried a cart otherwise I could not comment.

Your case, sorry what case you talk of Holes you know nothing about. Have you ever played on a Scottish course hardly touched in 120 years to justify that comment.

When you get your feet off the cart and back to reality, that's golfing reality then you might have some interesting opinions but at the moment your head is in the golfing clouds for riding too much. As for the Governing Bodies they are still messing about with the ball and that debate started some 100 years ago. You need to study a little more because 'Father they know not what they do for the good of the game'

Enjoy your dream world

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dont normally get involved in Melvyn's posts because there is no point but the absolute fact is this.

The rules of golf allow you to use measuring devices and the use of cart. If you therefore use a cart whilst playing golf you are still playing golf not cartball. Anyone therefore that says different is factually wrong.

The opinions dont matter as the rule has been set, nothing is alleged, it is golf if you ride, you may drink a beer whilst riding, make a phone call to buy or sale a stock or conclude a buisness deal and you can fire your laser at whatever you want to determine the distance. It might not be the golf you/we like but the Judge would rule to the other party if you chose to dispute.

In the old days some people had caddies and some did not, those caddies knew the distance and information to help the golfer and made it physically easier for the man to get round the course, that was considered within the rules also.

[John_Cullum]

Melvyn makes a decent point that walking is an important component, and I find the game much most enjoyable when walking with a caddy. However, the cart does allow me to play more quickly and get in a late afternoon round. If a competition chooses to limit players to walk only to put the physical demand on a player, I'm fine with that.

But as far as the range finder goes, I just see it as speeding things along. There have always been methods for determining distance with some degree of accuracy, whether stepping it off or using a nearby fixed object. They even have a few monuments on the old course (which were covered with astroturf for some bizaar reason on my visit).

I am more interested in Melvyn's take on wooden shafts v the modern club and the haskell ball and its progeny.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian
You are right by the current Rules the R&A allowed such things however no carts are allowed re The Open. So the message can be confusing depending if we call it a specific competition. But then this whole mess is down to the R&A hence why I want to see them reformed or at worst kicked out of office for good.

The opinions dont matter as the rule has been set, nothing is alleged, it is golf if you ride, you may drink a beer whilst riding, make a phone call to buy or sale a stock or conclude a buisness deal and you can fire your laser at whatever you want to determine the distance. It might not be the golf you/we like but the Judge would rule to the other party if you chose to dispute.

So am I right re The Open therefore if so then golf by definition of the oldest national championship is a walking game, irrespective of anything else. So would you say your above statement is not accurate in anyway.

No the caddies in the old days did not know distance in terms of yardage as yardage was not an issue and never came up. Distance in terms of yardage in another new modern twist.

John

As mentioned in my reply #77 there is nothing wrong with using technology or new materials, as long as it does not improve the performance just makes the equipment more sustainable and reliable. Any score improvement should come from the individuals skill and not through the purchase of the latest equipment.


General view
We yet again skirt the issue of definition, - why I wonder, could it be because those in the business of golf are make a good living and do not want to rock the boat or the governing body about something as simple as defining each aspect of the game and its variations. Should this not be what the R&A should be doing if nothing more than to adjust the Rules accordingly. No because it means exposing the hypocrisy of so many within the game. Winning or the need to be defined a winner be it in a competitions or with friends has overtaken sportsmanship and spirit of the game. Alas not just in golf.

[Jason Thurman]

So... the only way to play golf is if you're playing in the Open?

What evidence do you have that carts and range finders improve performance over caddies?

And seriously, you don't think players cared about distance in the early days of golf?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Never used a Caddie for anything else apart from carrying the bags - otherwise it could be defined as outside aids and not into that

In the old days there is no evidence of yardage, distance information or Caddies offering distance information. Golfers used their eyes and brains back then.

As for The Open – it’s the greatest golfing tournament in the world as how to play golf that's easy you walk and think excluding outside aids

[John_Cullum]

In the old days there is no evidence of yardage, distance information or Caddies offering distance information. Golfers used their eyes and brains back then.

Maybe there is no evidence, but I find it hard to believe. Your Forebears knew every inch of the links, and knew how far they could hit their clubs, especially after they developed the gutty. I have to believe they had some means of guaging distance with some degree of reliability.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

They did not get themselves so into distance that it dominated the game. They played and enjoyed the game. Distance issue was deciding which club to use and by the time they arrived at the ball they had decided and played the shot - oh for the good old day of golf when golfers never required a distance 'fix' to help them on their way

No distance, the only thing was a Driving Competition to see how far their Drive would go and that was not until the late 1890's. That was just to see who could hit the longest, but no yardage as we or should I say you use it today. In all the golf reports, newspaper articles from as early as the 1830's there is just nothing that talks about distance in yardage terms you guy love to talk about today. Sorry, not making it up it is just not there in the records I have studied in the last 5 years.

My game for years never worked on distance, it still does not, it was all about observation and careful club selection which comes from the knowledge of my game my poor skill levels and my swing. I think that was called the art of the game of golf.

[Scott Warren]

Melvyn,

Back when you played golf, how good a player were you? What's the lowest you got your handicap?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn, the saddest thing is that you have a lot to offer this site and 90% we agree with your principles, but with the distance aids ect, the horse has bolted.
I just wish you would stop the same continued rant, most would probably prefer golf as it was on this site but times move and if people want to drive round in a cart, just ****ing let them, if thats what they prefer.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Let them ride indeed, its legal yet with the The Open the R&A have sat on the fence with that one - certainly not a cart - why? 

It no longer matters to me as the question of trust has blunted the quality of this site.

 

 

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ok Melvyn I have  to ask,has The Open been bastardized by caddies and players use of yardage books? Would you ban them? Should a caddy just be a mindless club carrier or should they have any input, advice etc.?  How should the Open be run ideally?

Tried to put myself back in the 1800's today and played a hole with no laser or glasses. Wow. I would have taken up lawn bowling and drinking.

[Jason Thurman]

Ed, I've found it very possible to play golf and lawn bowl in the same day while wearing glasses and drinking the entire time. You shouldn't feel like it's an either-or situation.

Melvyn, I'm also interested to know how good a player you were at your best. Did you play competitively? Did you keep a handicap? Did you only play for enjoyment?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Jason,

Multitasking???  I love it. I do like sparring with Melvyn, the man is passionate in his beliefs.
Ed

[Michael Dugger]

When discussing blind holes, we are all familiar with the notion that a blind hole is only blind once.

This is what I find to be a fallacy in the distance aids theory Melvyn proposes.

Play your home course enough times, you don't need a range finder, yardage book, caddy or 150 yd marker.

Next thing you know, Melvyn is going to say you are not allowed to use trees or humps as guides.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Michael

What you do not see or want to understand is that distance aids are of little value. It’s only the last few generations who have fallen for this madness wasting much of golfs precious time flaffing about over distance. Golf is about the thrill of the chase, the rising to the challenge, not arming yourself with useless outside information because you feel your game  needs a boost. The game of old came alive for the golfer from the past, today we see the GPs/Rangefinder mating dance at evey stroke, missing out on the raw excitement to playing golf in the time honour way.

Modern players are so bound up with seeking useless knowledge that they miss out on the essential formula that makes the game really enjoyable. I think the old dead guys have the modern guys beat when it comes to facing the challenge of a round of golf on a new or old course. But do not take my word  just leave your distance toys behind at home for a few weeks and see your enjoyment and your game flourish

[Ulrich Mayring]

I don't really get the fatigue argument. Caddies were introduced precisely to help the golfer avoid the fatigue that comes with carrying your own clubs. Why should caddies be allowed and trolleys / carts be forbidden on grounds of fatigue?

Using a pull trolley is certainly more fatiguing than using a caddie!

Ulrich

[Craig Sweet]

What a silly question!  Line up 20 "golfers" and you will get 20 different answers.  Of course, Mr. Morrow is trolling in hopes that he can spark an argument about carts, the ball, the R&A, yardage readers etc.  He knows full well that every golfer has their own description of what they do on the course...and in the end they ALL call it golf!