[Mark Bourgeois]

Sometime between 1930 and 1938, someone added three bunkers to the left of the Bottle hole's (8th) green at the National. Also, he / they removed a bunker from the rear of the green. The second slider on this page compares aerials from 1930 and 1938:

http://golfcoursehistories.com/NGLA8.html

Did Charley Macdonald himself make these changes? Was it done after Macdonald was squeezed out? (He did lose control of the club at the end, yes? And for the tin-hat conspiracy types: did these bunkers have anything to do directly or indirectly with that?)

Why were the changes made? I have a simple hypothesis, supported by the first slider showing a comparison between a 1926 map drawn by pioneering mapmaker Erwin Raisz and the 1930 aerial, but let the discussion run.

Between 1938 and 1962 -- sorry, no slider! -- the second bunker behind the green was removed, bereaving this area of bunkers and giving Bottle's green it current assortment of bunkers.

Who did that and why?

As an aside, I am working on sliders involving the 1930 and 1938 aerials as well as a carousel of the 1926 map and aerials of 1930, 1938, 1962, 1984, 2001(hope), and 2012.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

What's interesting is the topography immediately to the left of the 8th green.

It's mounds.

I'll be there this weekend and will take a close look at the area with your aerials in hand.

Thanks

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

Do you mean immediately left of 8 green? My guess as well is that ground was elevated. In the 1930 aerial I wonder if the dark spots were teeing ground? Check out the first slider comparing the Raisz map to the 1930 aerial.

The Raisz map also shows a bunker running across the back of the green. Wonder if that actually existed. Actually, I'm very curious to find out how Raisz got the commission and whether he visited the course, worked off photos, or what. His heirs don't know. Raisz was a very significant figure in mapmaking, a pioneer in detailing landforms in maps.

What makes the provenance of his NGLA map so interesting to me is that in 1926, which is the date listed on the map -- some accounts for some reason date the map to 1928, so there's a chance I'm misreading the 8 as a 6 -- in 1926 Raisz was just a graduate student at Columbia University and had immigrated to the US a mere three years earlier.

So there must be some sort of story and / or interesting connection involving Macdonald or a member. How would a recent immigrant and grad student end up getting such a commission otherwise?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Do you mean immediately left of 8 green?

Yes

My guess as well is that ground was elevated.

It is.

In the 1930 aerial I wonder if the dark spots were teeing ground?

I believe they are.

Check out the first slider comparing the Raisz map to the 1930 aerial.

The Raisz map also shows a bunker running across the back of the green. Wonder if that actually existed. Actually, I'm very curious to find out how Raisz got the commission and whether he visited the course, worked off photos, or what. His heirs don't know. Raisz was a very significant figure in mapmaking, a pioneer in detailing landforms in maps.

The area to the right of the 8th hole is often labeled a water hazard, but, the early photos and contemporaneous inspection of that land doesn't seem to support that.

The bunker behind the green is puzzling because the area behind the green drops off so steeply to the right.

What makes the provenance of his NGLA map so interesting to me is that in 1926, which is the date listed on the map -- some accounts for some reason date the map to 1928, so there's a chance I'm misreading the 8 as a 6 -- in 1926 Raisz was just a graduate student at Columbia University and had immigrated to the US a mere three years earlier.

My Raisz schematic indicates a date of 1928.
"Scotland's Gift" was published in 1928, but, the sub-title of the book is "Reminiscences by Charles Blair Macdonald 1872-1927" has a conflicting date.


So there must be some sort of story and / or interesting connection involving Macdonald or a member.
How would a recent immigrant and grad student end up getting such a commission otherwise?

I think there may be a reasonable explanation.
Raynor died in 1926.
Had Raynor lived, I would imagine that his rendering would have been the one of record.
CBM probably retained Raisz based on a referal.

[Mark Bourgeois]

My copy of Scotland's Gift doesn't seem to have the map but I've just got the relatively recent edition. The Raisz plan I'm using appeared in HW Wind's "The Complete Golfer" of 1954 and was colorized. Apparently that book lists the map's date as 1928.

So what I don't understand is, in the compass on the map, there's a date that to my eye reads either 1925 or 1926. It looks like '26 to me. I can't see an 8 coming out of that; what do you think?



It would be nice to fix the date but I'm not sure it's important. While the map is significant as a map, who knows how accurate it is.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

You have a number of questions in your first post that are not just about architectural changes but who did them and why. You even have some questions about whether or not Macdonald was essentially squeezed out of his own club towards the end of his life.

Those types of questions have been floating around this website about NGLA for as long as I can remember. I became acutely aware of it immediately following the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock for various and really interesting reasons while playing in the National's Singles Tournament.

I don't think there is much question that the club does not really want to get involved in this or in discussing it, particularly publicly, and that very well may go back for close to 70 years now.

There was some form of a coup at NGLA just before, during and after Macdonald's death though and that is a fact; no one who really knows that club denies it. It involved a man by the name of Johnson, I believe, who effectively took over administrative control of the club before and after Macdonald's death. Whatever the problem was and whether or not in directly involved Macdonald, it is a fact it involved Macdonald's long time superintendent---if I recall his name correctly it is Tereski.

That is a fact and unfortunately in the shuffle a whole lot of pretty valuable material went out the door and landed eventually in a pretty interesting place from which it's ultimate disposition got even more complicated.

But if some of those architectural changes you mentioned actually were not done by Macdonald, then who the hell were they done by? The very best evidence I've ever heard of which I still consider to be inconclusive, is that they were done by Perry Maxwell, which probably would make some sense because he was around there doing a few other things at the time such as at Maidstone GC.

And then there is that interesting letter from Maxwell to Macdonald that I have also never actually seen but Macdonald's reference to it (if it in fact was a letter rather than perhaps just a conversation between them) in his book is just so interesting because mostly it clearly reflects the state of Macdonald's mind at the time to the whole subject of architecture and his interest in it or lack of it, at the time!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom, good post. The simplest explanation is Macdonald moved the tees for the 9th after realizing his members were getting killed off by pulled or hooked approach shots to the 8th! In my experience the simplest explanation is usually the correct one but for the record I know nothing and am just asking questions.

[TEPaul]

"The simplest explanation is Macdonald moved the tees for the 9th after realizing his members were getting killed off by pulled or hooked approach shots to the 8th! In my experience the simplest explanation is usually the correct one but for the record I know nothing and am just asking questions."



Mark:

Did he move the tees on #9? Were the 9th tees ever moved? I did not know that even though I do know a certain amount about the evolution of the architecture of NGLA because I have studied it there and elsewhere for years.

I guess I'm still have some trouble working with your images because I cannot see what you're referring to about the 9th tees being moved.

One of the really prominent things about that back tee on #9 is just how much it seems to stick up above the 8th green next to it but then it seems the whole eighth green sticks up an awful lot too. Kye Goalby and I once spent about an hour on that hole just analyzing the various old cut and fill evidence at the end of the 8th hole.

[jkinney]

TEPaul -- Now the backside of Bottle's green is a shaved grass hollow that collects almost any approach that lands past mid green (a good many of the approaches end up there). One can hit running chips or even putt with rescue clubs out of the hollow. In all the years I've played the hole, this configuration is the best, IMO.

As to Wayne Johnson, he was the President in '38-'39, succeeding CBM, who held the office from '08-'37. CBM died in '38. Thomas Wright was then President from '39-'61. That's all I know about the change of command.
 
Mr. Mucci, kind sir, when do we continue the "Enchanted Journey", which last had us walking along the ridge to Bottle's tee having secured a well earned par on St. Andrews. Now that Mr. Paul has returned, it seems time to tee it up again !

[TEPaul]

Jkinney:

I believe Charlie died in 1939 but no matter, '38 is close enough. There's a good new book in the works on NGLA. It sounds good. I've spoken with the author a bit and we did mention that transition. Don't know what the club wants to say about it---maybe nothing, sort of like it has been. But if they did get into the warts and all that would be cool to me. I just think Charlie Macdonald was such an interesting guy---so complex! I have found a lady who says she remembers him quite well. Can't wait to speak with her.

[Patrick_Mucci]

My copy of Scotland's Gift doesn't seem to have the map but I've just got the relatively recent edition. The Raisz plan I'm using appeared in HW Wind's "The Complete Golfer" of 1954 and was colorized. Apparently that book lists the map's date as 1928.

So what I don't understand is, in the compass on the map, there's a date that to my eye reads either 1925 or 1926. It looks like '26 to me. I can't see an 8 coming out of that; what do you think?



Mark,

Your compass date looks like 1926, but mine looks like 1928.
If it was 1926, w

As JKinney referenced, the back of # 8 is closely mown bowl.

I have a theory on why yhe bunker was eliminated.

It's not unusual for approaches and recoveries to go long, especially when the hole is cut toward the back, which it was today, and one of yhe members of our group hit the green with their approach but it ran over the green into the bowl.

As a bunker, recoveries hit back toward the green could easily run through  the green, down into the deep fronting bunker, leaving the golfer with a very difficult recovery.  I can see golfers going from the back bunker to the front bunker and back again, producing high scores and slowing up play considerably.  Removing the bunker would lower scores and speed up play


It would be nice to fix the date but I'm not sure it's important. While the map is significant as a map, who knows how accurate it is.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I guess the date on that map could be any of those dates. The publication date of Macdonald's book is 1928.

By the way, Macdonald apparently had a complete blow-up with The Creek Club at a Board meeting on Oct 26, 1926. About two weeks later he resigned from the club which was a bit odd since he was the president of the holding corporation that owned The Creek Club. When he resigned the reason he gave was he was not going to be around because he was going to his cottage in Bermuda to write his book (Scotland's Gift Golf).

A few months later, in the beginning of 1927, The Creek Club made him an honary member.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I guess it's not etiquette to default if one is alive but quitting a board, hey, nobody deserves that kind of emotional distress. A fascinating character. You know, I don't think he was the only one who lived in that Bermuda cottage.

Back to the topic. I am concerned the technology isn't working for you. It doesn't seem to work as well on Internet Explorer; perhaps that's the problem? If you're using that browser try another! All the other big ones seem to work fine.

Regarding the 9th tees, maybe a fader will show better what I am suggesting. This compares the Raisz map to the 1930 aerial:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/NGLA8s2.html

Try hitting the "command" and "+" keys, simultaneously, TWO times. This will zoom the screen two times. Then use your cursor to slide the fader from right to left. The fader bar should be below the pic; be aware that zooming sometimes causes a misalignment of picture and fader bar, but it should still work. (And once you're done, if you want to zoom back out to default, just hit the "command" and "-" keys simultaneously.)

To my eye it looks like the dark spots in the aerial correspond to the locations of tees for the 9th hole. What do you think?

I've also added full-course sliders comparing 1930 to 1962 and 1930 to 1938 here:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/NGLA.html

Check out 13 green and the bunker back right. It's interesting if you look at "current" aerials on Google or Microsoft that you can see the shadow so to speak of the bunker that used to be there.

[DMoriarty]

As to Wayne Johnson, he was the President in '38-'39, succeeding CBM, who held the office from '08-'37. CBM died in '38. Thomas Wright was then President from '39-'61. That's all I know about the change of command.

jkinney,

Thanks for bringing some actual facts to this matter, as opposed to the unsubstantiated gossip presented thus far. It seems that CBM was the president of the club for from the day it was formed until very close to his death, when he was in his 80's and had already retired from his day job. 

[TEPaul]

"Thanks for bringing some actual facts to this matter, as opposed to the unsubstantiated gossip presented thus far. It seems that CBM was the president of the club for from the day it was formed until very close to his death, when he was in his 80's and had already retired from his day job."


Is there a point there as to what actually happened with an apparent coup replacing Macdonald at NGLA at the end of Macdonald's life? 

[DMoriarty]

I am interested in history, not gossip. 

[TEPaul]

What happened with Macdonald at NGLA at the end of his life is history, very important history of that club. It also involves what happened to a lot of the valuable material he'd collected. Furthermore, Macdonald himself was certainly one of the most interesting people in the history of golf architecture.

Most everyone on here is interested in architecture but many of us are also interested in the architects too.

A few may care to hear what you're interested in but I doubt anyone cares to hear what your not interested in. On this website it's probably better to just keep that kind of thing to yourself.

[Tom MacWood]

Did the hurricane of '38 have any effect on the NGLA? If I remember correctly Maxwell's involvement at Maidstone was related to storm damage. Didn't Maxwell claim to have worked at the NGLA too?

[TEPaul]

Both Maidstone and NGLA believe that Maxwell did something on those courses but it has always been pretty unclear to them what he did or when. Actually with Maidstone they know he redid the 17th green. With NGLA no one seems to be sure.

Maxwell did a ton of redesigning all through the 1930s so even though the 1938 Hurricane might've had something to do with it that is not a certainty.

Apparently Maxwell must've had something to do with Macdonald to have asked him to come and look at some project---to which Macdonald responded he wouldn't even walk around the corner to look at another golf architecture project.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I've added a carousel of aerials from 1930, 1938, 1952, 1962, and 1984 here:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/NGLAmulti.html

Those greens looked pretty round back in '84.

[JC Jones]

What I find interesting about the aerials is how the modern NGLA looks so geometric and highly maintained while the earlier NGLA looks much more rustic and unrefined.

Perhaps the members of the club were just shaping their course to their changing aesthetic taste.

[TEPaul]

Sebonac:

The right tees on #16 were the originals I believe (you can even see the safety bunkers behind them).

Mark and JC:

You guys are beginning to identify and perhaps prove through this aerial stagger Mark has presented some of the evolutionary changes that I don't think anyone has ever documented very well. A good example is that bunker on the high right of the 13th green that has now been removed to allow the green to be extended well to the right (to more closely mimic the 7th and 11th at TOC.

And yes, JC, good pick up on your part about how sort of rustic and natural the place used to look. I remember it from back then. That's a good example of the way a lot of the courses of that crowd used to keep them back then. The term used was "Shabby Chic."

Those greens all did get rounded off in that era when the tri-plex green mowers were used so much. Those mowers just couldn't get into some squared off corners so they just rounded them out.

As for Macdonald himself with NGLA in his later years, the details of all that are important, really important, despite that at least one on this website refers to it as 'gossip.' It is not gossip at all but an important component on the entire history of NGLA and the details of the life of a most important man in the history of golf course architecture.

Another interesting fact of NGLA is how often and how quickly CBM seemed to change the look of some of the bunkers on the course. Over a year ago we found some really interesting on-ground photos of the course back then that no one had seen before or at least perhaps in about 85 years. Half of them were labelled Shinnecock but they were NGLA.

[TEPaul]

Mark, JC, Sebonac and jkinney,

I should also tell you that back in the 1950s, 60s and 70s and maybe even a bit later, the entire perception of the Macdonald/Raynor school of architecture truly was in a pretty steep cycle of unawareness and lack of perception of significance. I guess though in those days all the old classic dead guys architecture and reputations had gone into a state of decline and lack of awareness.

That was the era with so many of those old significant courses and their architects I refer to as the "sleepy period." That WASP world culture that made up their memberships was just like that back then. They were rich but they were also really cheap when it came to maintaining things. It's just the way they liked to live their lives----the term for it back then was "Shabby Chic." It was a form of replication of the old world style of the landed gentry of the UK and the way they kept their massive country estates, particularly inside with dogs all over the furniture and such. It was sort of their way of bringing their outdoors recreational world inside.  

How it began to come back, when and who all began to first promote a reawareness and renaissance of it is a separate subject and a most interesting one.

Most on this website who are under perhaps 50 were probably too young then to remember it or experience it.

I think maybe 30-35 years passed between the old days of being at that course and seeing it again in maybe the late 1990s when I went back to play in their singles tournament. There are a lot of memorable holes out there but there was only one I completely remembered after all that time. Would you care to guess which hole it was?

[Chris Clouser]

Maxwell did a lot of work on the island in 1938 after the hurricane.  I interviewed his nephew for the Maxwell work as he was the last person living at the time that had worked with him on his courses.  He told me several stories about Rockaway and a couple of other courses that they worked at.  One of the courses was the National.  I believe that was also when he did his work at Macdonald's Links Club. 

I think the historic photo comparisons are great.  This might resolve the issue of what Maxwell actually did at the National.  Do you know if there are any other obvious differences?  From talking with George Bahto, there was thoughts that the 8th hole was one that Maxwell may have worked on, so this corroborates that thought, though not concrete proff.  There were also theories that he may have worked on the first green and second tee. 

[TEPaul]

"There were also theories that he may have worked on the first green and second tee."

Somebody sure did because the back of #1 and the 2nd tee separated by the bunker I don't believe is original. Originally the 2nd tee was part of the back of the 1st green. I think the former super Karl Olsen did something to the back of #1 green and the current altered that a bit. There was a really cool little bowl in the back left where they could put the pin which was really hard to get the ball to from elsewhere. I hear they changed that a bit.  

While there some years ago I also heard some story that Nicklaus did something there once, perhaps like make or increase the berms on both sides of the road across #11.

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