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Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2012, 10:13:03 AM »

A lot of those above aren't particularly practical for a number of reasons...

If I were a betting man, my favourites from the classics would be a return to Deal or Portush at sometime in the future... And I think the most likely modern is the Trump course near Aberdeen...


Do you really see the R&A picking a course named Trump for the Open?   Obviously there have been rave reviews thus far (as always for the Donald), but the course is barely open yet. Someone has already said that if the name wasn’t Trump it would get a strong look for the Open. Fact is, it does and don’t see that changing anytime soon.  And is it much much to get to compared to Castle Stuart which also got excellent reviews?

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2012, 10:22:25 AM »

A lot of those above aren't particularly practical for a number of reasons...

If I were a betting man, my favourites from the classics would be a return to Deal or Portush at sometime in the future... And I think the most likely modern is the Trump course near Aberdeen...


Do you really see the R&A picking a course named Trump for the Open?   Obviously there have been rave reviews thus far (as always for the Donald), but the course is barely open yet. Someone has already said that if the name wasn’t Trump it would get a strong look for the Open. Fact is, it does and don’t see that changing anytime soon.  And is it much much to get to compared to Castle Stuart which also got excellent reviews?

I agree with Ally that the Trump course is the most likely modern course, but that still doesn't make it very likely, at least in the short term. Maybe in twenty years if the course proves itself (Scottish Open is a near certainty in the near future I would say). And in twenty years, DJT will be 86, if still around, and thus probably less likely to antagonise the R&A.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2012, 12:08:15 PM »

A lot of those above aren't particularly practical for a number of reasons...

If I were a betting man, my favourites from the classics would be a return to Deal or Portush at sometime in the future... And I think the most likely modern is the Trump course near Aberdeen...


Do you really see the R&A picking a course named Trump for the Open?   Obviously there have been rave reviews thus far (as always for the Donald), but the course is barely open yet. Someone has already said that if the name wasn’t Trump it would get a strong look for the Open. Fact is, it does and don’t see that changing anytime soon.  And is it much much to get to compared to Castle Stuart which also got excellent reviews?

I agree with Ally that the Trump course is the most likely modern course, but that still doesn't make it very likely, at least in the short term. Maybe in twenty years if the course proves itself (Scottish Open is a near certainty in the near future I would say). And in twenty years, DJT will be 86, if still around, and thus probably less likely to antagonise the R&A.


I say this every time I get the chance but I think that rotating the Scottish Open between Castle Stuart, Trump & Renaissance would show the world that links golf is as much a part of the future as of the past whilst showcasing the best of modern design....

Niall, Trump is most likely modern because of the size of the course, the facilities around and the fact it is not that close to another venue... In relative terms, "quality" is less important in my book.... The name could indeed be a sticking point... Balmedie Golf Club anyone?

Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2012, 01:08:19 PM »
[

 Balmedie Golf Club anyone?

[/quote]

"Balmedie Golf Club"  does have a nice ring to it Ally....

Niall C

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2012, 01:35:56 PM »
I think it likely that Donalds course will be referred to as Balmedie whether he likes it or not. If he has any sense he would go with that and have two different names for the club (if there is one) and the course eg. HCEG and Muirfield. Balmedie has the benefit of a name that sounds like an old Scottish links and also the great benefit of not having negative connotations in a lot of peoples minds the way anything named Trump tends to do.

Ally,

Not been round Balmedie post construction but it strikes me as being a bit like Dornoch with its swathes of gorse bushes in that Balmedie and its large dunes would be near impossible to move 20,000 to 40,000 spectators satisfactorily round the course without having huge snarl ups. Is that fair comment ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2012, 05:32:14 AM »
I think it likely that Donalds course will be referred to as Balmedie whether he likes it or not. If he has any sense he would go with that and have two different names for the club (if there is one) and the course eg. HCEG and Muirfield. Balmedie has the benefit of a name that sounds like an old Scottish links and also the great benefit of not having negative connotations in a lot of peoples minds the way anything named Trump tends to do.

Ally,

Not been round Balmedie post construction but it strikes me as being a bit like Dornoch with its swathes of gorse bushes in that Balmedie and its large dunes would be near impossible to move 20,000 to 40,000 spectators satisfactorily round the course without having huge snarl ups. Is that fair comment ?

Niall

I'm not actually sure Niall because I haven't visited post-construction yet either (August hopefully). The scale of the site is certainly very big but moving spectators through hole corridors may be difficult, I don't know. How do they manage in Birkdale? Perhaps hole corridors are wider there in between the dune ridges...

As for Troon getting the 2016 championship, it's always been a great test for the pro's and has had some iconic moments around those middle six holes so I'm happy...

Matt MacIver

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2012, 10:57:23 AM »
The thing I think I like about several of Troon's first six holes, is that the tee boxes seemed to point you towards the rough rather than the middle of the fairway, so I found myself driving it thru the fairway into the rough (mostly left), leaving a more difficult angle to the green.  Am not sure if this is a design feature or a vestige of old tee boxes vs. new technology, but I really liked the concept since a short hitter wasn't penalized and could play but a long hitter had to think his way right from the tee box. 

Wonder if 1) my memory serves me correctly and this is true? 2) was this a design feature or just happenstance? 3) does it play this way from the pro tee boxes?  With changing daily winds I think this is a pretty good feature, accident or not. 

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2012, 11:48:07 AM »
Without stating the obvious, the Open championship goes to courses that tick the boxes for a lot of things we dont consider important on this site. I think 2017 Portrush can happen, provided the crowds come out (and they have pre-sold well). I think going north of St Andrews, ie Aberdeen and higher is unlikely to get the crowds, but perhaps Aberdeen is enough for 150,000. Probably Trump Nat is the favourite for a new one. 7200 yards is another important number the R & A deem essential and many great courses can't hit, it must be quite sometime The Open was played sub 7000. I guess Castle Stuart could be in the mix, Kingsbarns is too small I would think. Porthcawl is tighter than Prestwick at a few points, Saunton is not easy road wise. Southern Ireland might not be out of the question either if they are looking for new venues.
Troon has some great middle holes, cant say I really think much the first three holes, and with the exception of 17, from 14 in is sorta just okay, it serves a great Open championship test though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2012, 12:19:55 AM »
I think going north of St Andrews, ie Aberdeen and higher is unlikely to get the crowds, but perhaps Aberdeen is enough for 150,000. Probably Trump Nat is the favourite for a new one.
Isn't Carnoustie north of St Andrews?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 05:10:50 AM »
Aberdeen is higher up than St Andrews, there is a significant drive from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen that probably stops day visitors, Edinburgh to St Andrews or Carnoustie is about the same drive time so not a put off.  Geographically Carnoustie is north of St Andrews.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 05:22:12 AM »
Aberdeen is higher up than St Andrews, there is a significant drive from Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen that probably stops day visitors, Edinburgh to St Andrews or Carnoustie is about the same drive time so not a put off.  Geographically Carnoustie is north of St Andrews.

I didn't realise that ALL the day visitors came from Glasgow and Edinburgh. How do they make the journey down to Kent??? ;)

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 05:45:26 AM »
Aberdeen is a substantial and economically important city with excellent links to the rest of the UK by air, rail and road, and a very good hotel infrastructure. An Aberdeen Open would be significantly more practical than Turnberry, probably Carnoustie too. The Trump project has been conceived from the start as a championship venue, so it is safe to assume that the facility could cope.. So I think that there are three questions that need to be resolved in respect of a Balmedie Open:

1. Would the R&A countenance a modern course?
2. Would the R&A countenance Mr Trump?
3. Is the golf course worthy?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 07:38:49 AM »
Adrian is usually spot-on with his observations but I think he is wrong with this one. The reason Trump National is the most likely is for all the reasons Adam states. A large international airport is merely a shuttle bus away. Presuming the hotel finally gets permitting, that will make it one of the best connected venues there is. Incidentally, as much as I disagree with the execution and planning of it, there is also a new bypass being built round Aberdeen which will mean dual carriageway to the very front door of the Trump course.

Surely the reason that the new Bushmill Dunes course finally got its permit after 12 years was because of the push to get a large capable hotel near Portrush for a possible future Open...

I think Portrush will get it next and if the R&A can get round Adam's points a) and b), Trump will maybe get a shout in the next 25 years... I think point c) will not prove to be a likely show-stopper. The course is guaranteed worthy enough for a major.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2012, 07:50:13 AM »
Ally & All - I did say in a post a few back that I thought Trump National was the likely favourite for a newbie and that Aberbeen probably could generate its own 150,000. What I mean to say and I have explained it crap.... is the Scottish rota as is can call on quite a few scots 'within the hour or so' and by definition going to Aberdeen probably puts it out of range for those same Scots that want to go for the day. There is no doubt Turnberry is a bit tucked away and the numbers drop when it goes there.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2012, 10:36:14 AM »
With all of the talk of the Open Championship going to Ulster, can we re-open the debate about where this event can be held?  Is there any reason why it couldn't be held in the Republic of Ireland?  What about, France, Canada, Australia, etc?  After all, doesn't the R&A essentially rule over the entire golfing world outside of the US and Mexico?  If one could find a suitable links course in these other countries then why couldn't they ost an Open?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2012, 11:24:24 AM »
Wayne - The Amateur championship went to Ireland in 1949 that is under the same banner so there is no reason why the Amateur or Open itself should not go to a course there. It is still essentially a numbers or ££££ game so the reasons will still be same if it goes to a France, ie not enough will watch. Portrush Irish Open this year has sold 130,000 tickets so far, so they seem to have ticked a big box. The logistics of the officials, the years of pre set up, the sponsors, the tented village support etc all need to be considered and its probably a case of why repair something thats not broken, the Open works well as it is, so I think other than a odd newbie to the rota over the next 20 years or so its probably going to spin around the venues we know.

Perhaps: 2012; Lytham : 2013; Muirfield : 2014; Hoylake : 2015; St Andrews : 2016; Troon : 2017; Portrush : 2018; Birkdale : 2019; Carnoustie : 2020; St Andrews : 2021; St Georges : 2022; That course in Aberdeen : 2023; Turnberry : 2024; Lytham : 2025; St Andrews
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2012, 11:59:21 AM »
IRISH EYES ARE CRYING: The British Open only has been played in Ireland once in its 147-year history. Chances of it returning to one of the links courses on the Emerald Isle are remote.

The R&A currently uses nine courses, with St. Andrews getting the British Open twice during the rotation. Chief executive Peter Dawson said one criteria is whether the property is big enough to stage such a big event.

“We’re not closed-minded to say we’ll always have these nine courses,” Dawson said. “But right now, we’re not actively considering another venue that is true potential for the Open.”

One suggestion was Royal County Down, which will stage the Walker Cup in September.

“It’s a course we know very well,” Dawson said. “It is really an Open Championship venue? Love the course; I think it’s terrific. No, I don’t think it’s a big enough golf course for The Open. But it’s a lovely, lovely golf course.”

The only British Open held in Ireland was at Portrush in 1951.

Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2012, 12:02:15 PM »
Aberdeen is a substantial and economically important city with excellent links to the rest of the UK by air, rail and road, and a very good hotel infrastructure. An Aberdeen Open would be significantly more practical than Turnberry, probably Carnoustie too. The Trump project has been conceived from the start as a championship venue, so it is safe to assume that the facility could cope.. So I think that there are three questions that need to be resolved in respect of a Balmedie Open:

1. Would the R&A countenance a modern course?
2. Would the R&A countenance Mr Trump?
3. Is the golf course worthy?

Question 1 and 2 are more important with regards to getting an Open. Without the first two then number 3 doesn't matter.  Time will tell on 3. 

Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2012, 01:08:04 PM »
LYTHAM ST. ANNES, England (AP) -- Royal and Ancient chief executive Peter Dawson says the St. Andrews-based organization has invested $16 million in toughening and tightening all courses used to host the Open Championship, including lengthening the courses for the 2012 and 2013 editions.

Dawson said a fund was created to bring the nine courses used for the Open "into the modern era."

He said an average of about $800,000 had been spent on each course, "but I would say it's money well spent."

And while Dawson earlier detailed changes to this year's host venue at Royal Lytham and St. Annes, he said Tuesday that changes have already been put in place for the 2013 Open venue at Muirfield.

"Everything has been done at Muirfield and it has been done for a few years now," he said. "There are quite a few changes, but they are very subtle."

Dawson said one of the biggest changes at Muirfield was a new back tee at the ninth hole, where 60 to 70 yards had been added to the hole. The 10th fairway has been moved about one-third of its width to provide more room at the practice ground.

"Almost all the changes at Muirfield, apart from the ninth tee, you would not notice them," Dawson said, adding that the course will play some 200 yards longer than when the British Open was last held at Muirfield in 2002.

Dawson also said that while he was impressed with the new Donald Trump course at Aberdeen, he said it would need to be commercially viable to the R&A to take golf's oldest major to the Martin Hawtree-designed course at Balmedie.

"It is a spectacular golf course and it was me who recommended Martin Hawtree to Donald," Dawson. "As for an Open Championship being played there we will have to wait and see. There is every indication the golf course is very strong, but let's see how it matures and I would say it has a long way to go yet."

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2012, 02:47:20 PM »
The only British Open held in Ireland was at Portrush in 1951.
Some would argue that it was the only non-British Open since Ireland is not Britain, not even Nortern Ireland.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »
The only British Open held in Ireland was at Portrush in 1951.
Some would argue that it was the only non-British Open since Ireland is not Britain, not even Nortern Ireland.
?  Last time I looked Portrush was in Northern Ireland.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Matthew Hunt

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2012, 04:58:32 PM »
The only British Open held in Ireland was at Portrush in 1951.
Some would argue that it was the only non-British Open since Ireland is not Britain, not even Nortern Ireland.
?  Last time I looked Portrush was in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but not Britain (which is the Island). 

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2012, 05:33:13 PM »
Niall Hay,

That "IRISH EYES ARE CRYING" article you posted was from 2007, prior to six Irish major wins and a whole host of opinion pushing towards Portrush...

On the point of whether the Open could / would ever be held outside GB&I.... If it ever is, the overwhelming favourite to host would be Portmarnock by a country mile... But whatever remote possibility there is of that will probably be scuppered if Portrush ends up on the rota...

Incidentally, Portmarnock did host the Amateur Championshiop in 1949 (as Adrian stated). But Ireland was still a free state, not a republic, when it was awarded. So it's not strictly a precedent.

Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2012, 05:42:52 PM »
Niall Hay,

That "IRISH EYES ARE CRYING" article you posted was from 2007, prior to six Irish major wins and a whole host of opinion pushing towards Portrush...

.

R&A official causes uproar over racist jokes
June 3, 2012admin
Comments off
CARNOUSTIE, Scotland (AP) — A Royal & Ancient rules official started his dinner speech with a fantastic impersonation of Seve Ballesteros, which segued to a series of racial and ethnic jokes. One day later, Graham Brown was under more scrutiny than Tiger Woods at the British Open.

Brown, a member of the Rules of Golf committee for the R&A, was the guest speaker Tuesday night at the Association of Golf Writers dinner held at Carnoustie and attended by the top brass in golf, including R&A chief executive Peter Dawson, PGA Tour commissioner Tim Finchem and USGA executive director David Fay.

Dawson distanced the R&A from Brown’s jokes but said he would not be asked to resign.

“He was in no way representing the R&A,” Dawson said. “We know Graham Brown very well, and I can say absolutely that he is certainly not a racist as an individual. But I have spoken to him today. He is horrified at the impression he has left and horrified at learning the effects of some of his remarks.

“The R&A would not wish to be associated with that kind of thing.”

The jokes included a reference to Japanese golfers and a black caddie at Augusta National.

Martin Kippax, chairman of the championship committee at the R&A, said he saw no reason to force Brown to resign.

“Graham is a good golfer. He’s a very knowledgeable individual with regards to the rules of golf, and he’s a very useful member of our Rules of Golf committee,” Kippax said. “What happened last night is something that is quite independent.”

The AGW issued a statement apologizing to the guests and members.

“We will make every effort to ensure this does not happen again,” the AGW said.

Brown could not be located for comment.

IRISH EYES ARE CRYING: The British Open only has been played in Ireland once in its 147-year history. Chances of it returning to one of the links courses on the Emerald Isle are remote.

The R&A currently uses nine courses, with St. Andrews getting the British Open twice during the rotation. Chief executive Peter Dawson said one criteria is whether the property is big enough to stage such a big event.

“We’re not closed-minded to say we’ll always have these nine courses,” Dawson said. “But right now, we’re not actively considering another venue that is true potential for the Open.”

One suggestion was Royal County Down, which will stage the Walker Cup in September.

“It’s a course we know very well,” Dawson said. “It is really an Open Championship venue? Love the course; I think it’s terrific. No, I don’t think it’s a big enough golf course for The Open. But it’s a lovely, lovely golf course.”

The only British Open held in Ireland was at Portrush in 1951.

Niall Hay

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Re: Troon to host 2016 Open Championship
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2012, 05:44:59 PM »
Ally, No offense intended but the date of the article is less relevant as all the important parties are the same. 

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