News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.

Pages: [1] 2

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
MGC: you are on the clock!
« on: June 18, 2012, 09:57:09 AM »
My golfing buds have been talking about the 2013 tourney at Merion for years now, ever since the rumors got legs that they really were going to be selected again after a long time off.

Here in Philly that excitement is really building.  Friends of mine that are casual sports fans at best are very much aware of the coming tourney.  Now if Mother Nature will somehow treat us well I think we'll have a classic tourney.

I do wonder what Mike Davis and his crew might have in store for us, different than the course setup for the 2009 Walker Cup.  Might any areas around greens that are normally rough be shaved down (like right on 17 at the Olympic Club)?  I would think possible candidates for this are front on #3, back left on #7, back on #8, and back on #11.

If they use two tees on Thursday and Friday, will they start at #1 and #11?  Starting your round on the 11th could be interesting, requiring a pin point tee shot, with a knee-knocker approach, especially for those that miss the fairway.
Logged
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 11:22:06 AM »
 Yes, Joe let your imagination go wild. I loved the shaved rough into that back bunker on #3 (par 3) at Olympic. It showed an awareness of how the game is played. Several players balls were just magnetized to that bunker. There are many places at Merion that could provide such little touches.
Logged
AKA Mayday

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »
Who is responsible for the layout at Merion?
Logged
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 12:09:34 PM »
Quote from: Terry Lavin on June 18, 2012, 11:59:00 AM
Who is responsible for the layout at Merion?

Matt Shaffer.
Logged
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 12:21:15 PM »
Merion #3 (par3.) Shaved front? I don't think Ernie Els would like it :)

Logged

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 12:35:22 PM »
I'm interested to see how the USGA will present or maintain the bunker surrounds.  There are some pretty severe spots around many of the bunkers at Merion.  Like the 3rd hole pictured above...that right bunker grassed face can be brutal.  When I played Merion in the GAP Open about 5 years ago, my playing partner lost a ball in that grass about 3 steps off the right of the green. The hole location was middle right, he hit what looked like a good shot that came up a few yards short, the ball landed in the very top of that bunker face.  I thought it was way too severe a penalty for missing a long iron shot by so little.  He could've fanned his tee shot 20-40 yards right and had no issue.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:05:25 PM by JSlonis »
Logged

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 12:47:41 PM »
Do any of think that this event may represent a seminal moment for the USGA and the SETUP having repurcussions good, bad or whatever for many years to come?
Logged
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »
They will start on 1 and 10. The plans are to have the players routed from the West driving range through the neighborhoods and onto the 10th tee. Apparently the entire area has bought into Merion hosting this event so it should run smoothly.
Logged
Mr Hurricane

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 03:05:12 PM »
So, if Matt designed Merion, how much of it could he see from the Pig and Whistle tracks? ;)


The big question I have for this event will be crowd (aka patrons in parts of rural Georgia) flow. So much of the teeth is the gnarly rough, so will it be just grandstands from 14 on to avoid the inevitable matting down?

Logged
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 03:10:41 PM »
Having watched this weekend at how they manipulated Olympic, I shudder to thik how Merion will be "adjusted" to suit the set up of Mike Davis, and the USGA.
I fear that at its length, they may go a little overboard at preparing the course.
I hope that the integrity of the design is not lost in the search to protect par, but I fear for the worse.
Logged

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 04:21:44 PM »
Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on June 18, 2012, 03:10:41 PM
Having watched this weekend at how they manipulated Olympic, I shudder to thik how Merion will be "adjusted" to suit the set up of Mike Davis, and the USGA.
I fear that at its length, they may go a little overboard at preparing the course.
I hope that the integrity of the design is not lost in the search to protect par, but I fear for the worse.

Michael,

When you use the phrase "integrity of the design" I think the case can be made that the USGA set ups go a long way to restore the architect's intent. By taking driver out of the pros' hands, the players are forced to hit shorter tee shots and therefore longer irons to the greens.  I think it is perfectly fine to test the pro's this way (but I would not want to play golf this way on a regualr basis...) Here is a look back at the narrowed 11th fairway at Merion. Seems to me this is the only way to stop this from being a 3-wood-flip wedge for the pros. (Sorry for the darkness, we were barely beating an upcoming storm..)

Logged

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 08:37:50 PM »
Bill,

The 11th hole at Merion wouldn't be a 3 wood tee shot under any US Open setup. That's too much club from the tee for that level of player. It's a 2-5 iron from the tee and a wedge approach.
Logged

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 09:02:21 PM »
Right, I forgot how far the pros hit 3 woods... Prior to the new rough, what distance  would good players plan on hitting from the back tees? Would you say that has that been reduced (for the sake of greater accuracy) after the change?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:04:02 PM by Bill Brightly »
Logged

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 09:35:41 PM »
That picture of 11 above is really eye opening. Amazing how small the fairway is compared to 10 yrs ago.

Bill,

I'd say for the ideal tee shot, players are looking to hit a 230-220 yd shot. With the downhill nature of the hole, it'll go a bit more than that for total yardage. With firm tournament conditions, you can even hit less club and chase it down the hill. Regardless of the yardage, being in the fairway is at a premium. It's a really tough approach from the rough with the surrounding creek at the green. From the short grass, its a birdie chance because its one of the flatter greens on the course.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:40:29 PM by JSlonis »
Logged

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 09:44:21 PM »
Quote from: Bill Brightly on June 18, 2012, 12:21:15 PM
Merion #3 (par3.) Shaved front? I don't think Ernie Els would like it :)



I know it is hard to imagine with today's soft conditions and with that slope, but reportedly there was no rough in front of this hole originally, and golfer's could bounce or roll the ball onto the green.

William Flynn apparently didn't like this aspect of the hole was probably originally responsible for growing in rough.

_________________________________________

As for the 11th, I don't understand your point.  They've certainly made the hole one dimensional as far as where to aim one's drive, but I don't see how they have changed the club selection off the tee.  In fact, doesn't the fairway as it is now have sort of a reverse bottleneck effect, where no one in their right mind would hit a shorter club because that would entail hitting the fairway where it was only about 12 or 13 yards wide?  

Here is the hole from above. 



I think it is a stretch to say that this setup restores the architect's intent, at least not as you described it above.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:47:24 PM by DMoriarty »
Logged
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2012, 09:57:57 PM »
Thanks for the overhead photo, David. I guess the intent has not been restored, its just far harder to hit the fairway. Since I hit a hot hook from the tee left of the stream... I did not really see how narrow the fairway is above the lower landing area. So I guess the pros will just go for that spot and take their chances?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:03:23 AM by Bill Brightly »
Logged

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 08:25:42 AM »
With a dryish week...it will all they can handle!

We look forward to hosting the GCA clan during that week, and the Philly posse WILL deliver with the usual humor and flair you've come to expect from the many faces of.... :-X

Cheers,
Kris 8)
Logged
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2012, 09:26:46 AM »
I just dont think that the architect had 5 iron wedge in mind when he designed number 11...or driving over a stop sign on number 14..or incorporating bunkers to the left of number 2 in the middle of the rough...but perhaps I am wrong!
To me this is very much compromising the original architects integrity.
Logged

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2012, 10:30:15 AM »
it is my understanding that they are shifting #11 fairway to the left which would have fairway right up to the edge of the creek. 
Logged

TEPaul

Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2012, 10:36:42 AM »
Dan:

It's done and what used to be the right half of the 11th fairway is now rough. I think this one will be a very interesting application because even with the way the fairway used to be even with some experience it was hard to figure out from the tee exactly where to aim and hit the ball. Of course it is and always was totally blind down there from the tees.

I wonder what template design from Macdonald's paint kit toolbox those who contend Macdonald routed and designed Merion East think the 11th hole is?   ;)

Speaking of that, Macdonald/Whigam did say to Merion on April 6, 1911 that in their opinion the plan of MCC's five plans they would approve of contained the best last seven holes that were equal to any inland course in the world. I wonder what Macdonald/Whigam said about #12 and #13 when MCC changed them way back then to what they have today?!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 10:45:18 AM by TEPaul »
Logged

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2012, 10:57:52 AM »
that is what i thought.

i guess they had to remove several trees around the bridge at the end of the fairway.

you are saying they just shifted the fairway towards the creek and did not widen it, is that correct?

I remember the line always used to be the right edge of the green form the tee, so that would probably put me in the right rough now.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:06:25 AM by D_Malley »
Logged

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2012, 01:34:36 PM »
For those unfamiliar with the history of the evolution of Merion East, the 11th hole as it now is was not part of the initial course. The original green was short of the creek, and the tee was on the other side of Ardmore Avenue.  The current version was created in the mid-1920's because it was no longer feasible to play across Ardmore Avenue.    

At this same time at the 10th hole, Merion replaced one CBM "template" (the "Alps") with another (the "Cape") but I am unaware of any direct involvement by CBM and/or HJW regarding the changes made in the mid-1920s.  So far as I know the 11th hole was Hugh Wilson's idea.  

While the 11th hole eventually became very famous (Jones closed out his "Grand Slam" victory at the 11th) and even somewhat of a "signature hole" it wasn't universally popular initially, even among those close to the club.  The idea of using a creek so prominently around such a small, difficult to hit green rubbed some the wrong way for multiple reasons.  (The original short hole (the 13th) had the creek guarding the green on three sides, but the green looks to have been quite a bit larger than the current 11th green.)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 01:36:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Logged
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 01:48:47 PM »
Here is the 11th fairway at the 1930 Amateur.   Is this even the same golf hole?  



From Google Earth. . .
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 01:57:16 PM by DMoriarty »
Logged
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 02:11:40 PM »
"you are saying they just shifted the fairway towards the creek and did not widen it, is that correct?"


Dan Malley:

That's correct, that is what I'm saying they just did with the 11th fairway.

And it is true what Reply #21 says, that in 1912 when Merion East opened for play, the 11th hole was not the same as today.

In additon, neither was #12 or #13. It would not be until after MCC bought and additional 7.28 acres, not in the mid-1920s but specifically in March, 1922 that the designs of #11, #12 and #13 would change quite dramatically and become what they have been since then.

Actually, one of the additional items that is really interesting, to me at least, and shows again what a small world that one was back then was who sold MCC that additional 7.28 acres.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 02:16:16 PM by TEPaul »
Logged

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MGC: you are on the clock!
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 03:35:48 PM »
David,

In 1930, they were playing with much less advantageous equipment, too!  Hickory shafts, etc.

The fairway is now much more narrow, the greenside bunker is about 2 feet deeper and the tee box has been lowered to ground level.

The strategy is the same as before and, given the equipment of today, probably no more difficult to execute than in 1930.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back