[T_MacWood]

AG
The list was created sometime in the early 30's apparently before Asheboro was built.

SBR
I believe they are the same.

[wsmorrison]

SBR,

I am by no means certain about the connection between Hagerstown CC and Fountain Head CC also in Hagerstown.  Looking at Cornish and Whitten's list of courses in the back of the book, I can see no Hagerstown CC listed, only Hagerstown Muni by Frank Murray and Russell Roberts.  As for Fountain Head CC, it is shown as designed by Ross and revised by Ault.  Under the listing by architect, Cornish and Whitten lists Ross as responsible for Fountainhead CC in 1925 and Hagerstown CC (NLE) in 1926.  Although an excellent starting point, there are errors in the C+W listings and I am not sure what the true story is.  Perhaps Craig Disher, when he returns from the Open, can clear up the matter.  He is very knowledgeable about MD/DC golf history.

Regards,
Wayne

[T_MacWood]

I was looking at this list again the other day and there were a number of things that struck me. It appears that in the case where Ross added a new nine and revised an existing nine, he didn't include it on his list. Courses like Vesper, Wianno, CC of New Bedford, Maplewood, Port Judith, Columbus, and Cape Neddick. Overhills and White Bear Yacht are not on the list, two courses where Ross added a new nine to an existing Ross nine -- I wonder of the existing nine might have been the work of another architect. There are a couple of exceptions to the rule--Inverness and Torresdale-Frankfort--both of which Ross lists.

Ross doesn't appear to list courses that he designed, but where subsequently remodeled: Bob O'Link (Alison), Prince Georges (Flynn), St. Charles (MacKenzie) and Whipporwill (Banks). I'm curious why Whipporwill was overhauled only few years after Ross evidently completed it...anyone know?

Other courses I wonder about:

University of Florida--Not listed. Did Ross design this course?

Echo Lake--Not listed. Did another architect design or redesign EL.

Oak Park--Not listed. Did Ross inherit an existing 9 or 18?

Seaview(Bay)--Not listed. I know Ross added bunkers here, as did Wilfred Reid, but was it a Ross original design?

Siwanoy--Not listed. Is this another case where Ross inherited a previous nine or eighteen?

Grove Park Inn--Not listed. I beleive Willie Park originally designed this course.

Whitemarsh Valley--Ross takes credit for this course (as a remodel). Was this an extensive remodeling job?

[SPDB]

Tom -
Siwanoy is all Ross. Willie Davis designed the original 9-holer, but the club was forced to move, and retained Ross to design the curren 18 holes, roughly 5 miles away from the original site.

Is Misquamicut on the list? If he includes that he should include Point Judith.

I am also very interested in the absence of Whitinsville.

[T_MacWood]

Sean
Misquamicut is on the list and listed by Ross as a remodel. I suspect there is a good reason why Siwanoy (and Point Judith) is not on the list. I reckon if you dug a little deeper at Siwanoy you might find the answer--I suspect an architect was involved either prior and after Ross.

[Steve Lang]

 

Are there any listings for Toledo other than Inverness?  I had always heard that Ross helped his friend, Sylvanius P. Jermain (aka Mr. Inverness) expand Ottawa Park from its original 1899 9 to 18..

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

During my investigation into the architectural history of my home course, Beverly CC, I talked with Geoffrey Cornish, who co-wrote the "Architects of Golf".  Mr. Cornish faxed me a copy of Ross' pamphlet.  I had asked Mr. Cornish why he and Ron Whitten had written in their book that Ross had designed Beverly in 1907, when it's kind of obvious he hadn't made many forays west of the Boston area by that early date (except down to NC?).  Mr. Cornish explained to me that Ross was a very meticulous gentelman, and since he had listed Beverly as an original design, the authors took it on faith that Ross was correct.

However, since that time, we have been able to establish that Ross actually restored or, more correctly, redesigned Beverly in the early 1920's.

The bottom line is that this is an example of the misinformation (disinformation?) put out by Donald Ross and Company during the depression when I am sure he was looking to try to develop more work for he and his company.

[SPDB]

Tom - I'm pretty sure that Siwanoy is all Ross, and was still at the time that this list was written. Maybe he had the foresight to know that Art Hills would do work there?

Pt. Judith and Misquamicut were both plow overs of Dunn and Anderson nines.

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

I have copies of Ross' plans for Whitemarsh Valley (orignially Thomas 1908).  These drawings are of holes 2, 11, and 18.  We also have a Flynn drawing overlaying the Ross plan for the 11th hole.  His proposals are as follows:

On the 2nd hole (387 yards), Ross proposed adding a new tee 20 yards back, adding 3 bunkers, and extending the green on the right rear.  A 1938 aerial shows that much of this was done.  

On the 11th (517 yards) Ross wanted to add a forward tee, move the green to the right of the original and surround by 6 bunkres, and add some fairway bunkers.  Flynn's plan was sterner test and an improvement on the Ross.  It looks like some of the Ross and some of the Flynn plan is evident in the 1938 aerial.

It doesn't appear that much of Ross' plans for 18 were implemented.  A right side fairway bunker that Ross proposed was put in about 200 yards from the tee. The green end doesn't look anything like the Ross proposal in the 1938 aerial.

I don't know if any Thomas drawings exist on Whitemarsh Valley or if there are aerial photos as early as prior to Ross being there (early 20s?) so unless there are other drawings by Ross or additional information, it would be a stretch to say that Whitemarsh is a significant redesign by Ross.

[T_MacWood]

Sean
Regarding Pt. Judith and Misquamicut--one was an existing nine and one an existing 18--are you sure they were both plowed over to the same extent?

What did Tom Winton do at Siwanoy?

Paul
Ross did list Beverly...I'm a little confused, what is your point? By the way Ross was at Beverly in 1918.

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

It's simple.  Ross wrote down that Beverly was one of his original designs.  Cornish and Whitten relied on that fact when they wrote "The Architects of Golf" and, since golf was played at Beverly in 1908, they wrote that Ross designed it in 1907.

However, this turns out to be untrue.  Ross RE-designed the course over a period of years, perhaps as early as 1918 (the club's Board minutes were destroyed in a clubhouse fire and I only have access to those since 1919).  We do know that Ross DID NOT design the original course here (that was either Tom Bendelow and George O'Neil, or just George O'Neil alone - two sources are in conflict).  We DO know that Ross redesigned the course and the club converted the course according to Ross's plans over a series of years, into the early '20's.  So the course where Francis Ouimet won the 1931 US Amateur on was Ross' course.

BTW, which source are you citing with the 1918 reference?

[T_MacWood]

Paul
After studying the Ross list--what the list includes and what it doesn't include--I would agree with Cornish, Ross was a very meticulous gentelman.

After studying it for a short time the list makes sense to me. It appears to me that the courses that Ross lists as 'remodeled' were courses in which he utilized or preserved a certain percentage of an existing design--perhaps a great deal of the routing or the existing greens. Courses like Skokie, Ravisloe, Wykgyl, Inverness and Allegheny are all listed as remodels.

Beverly as well as Minikahda, Congress Lake and Metacomet are not designated as remodeling even though we know there was existing courses prior to his involvement. Regarding Beverly it appears no one knows what existed prior to Ross or who exactly designed the early course, so it is difficult to judge the extent of his work.

We do know at Metcomet (a Willie Park course) Ross completely redesigned the course creating all new tees and 12 new greens (altering the routing). Technically a remodel, but more accurately designated a new design so as to differentiate it from a course like Whitemarsh Valley or Agawam Hunt where the changes were modest in comparision.

It also interesting to note the courses not on the list. It appears he did not want to list courses which might not reflect a total Ross expression--course like Columbus, Oak Park and Bob O'Link.

I haven't quite figured it out, but I believe there is a logic behind Ross's list. And I certainly do not believe Ross was involved in a disinformation campaign. With his portfolio...why would he need to?

The Beverly info came from 6/1918 American Golfer.

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

You are correct.  Much of Beverly's course was redesigned by Ross, and, rightly so, he could take credit for it.  However, Cornish and Whitten took him on 'his word' for it and credited him with the original design work, in 1907.

Also, you said:
>I certainly do not believe Ross was involved in a disinformation campaign. With his portfolio...why would he need to?

Keep in mind that when this list came out in pamphlet form, it was the Great Depression and, despite Ross's considerable resume, he was still looking for work at the time.  Unfortunately, there weren't too many people with extra money to spend on building new golf courses at the time.

PS  Can you send me/ fax me / email me the article you referred to?  Just in case I do not have it.  Much obliged!
 

[T_MacWood]

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the article, I found it in my notes. I don't think it was an article...more like a snipet describing his activities. But whatever it was you'll find in American Golfer.

Depression or no Depression, IMO there is no way Ross was involved in a disinformation campaign to overstate his resume. Are you kidding? The guy had an unreal list of designs. Are you saying listing Beverly would make an impact on his credibility. With all due respect to Beverly, that makes no sense. Ross was one of the few architects who didn't need to pump up his reputation, he had more solid designs than anyone of that era...by far. I think it is worth noting the bigtime courses he was involved with that he didn't list and/or the courses he listed as remodel jobs--that would seem to disprove this theory.

That's the first I've heard that Ross was desperate for work during the Depression. I've always been under the impression Ross was a superior business man, and didn't face the financial woes of some of his contemporaries. I thought he pretty much disbanded his design machine shortly after the Depression. Was he desperate for work at this time?

I think your questions might be misplaced with Ross and should be placed on Cornish.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

In the lockeroom at Misquamicutt there's an old routing map (very small) of the course that preceded the present Ross one. It appeared to me to be maybe 11-12 holes and basically sort of par 3ish in length. The pro who seemed to know as much as anyone when I asked around thought this preceding small course was by Willie Park.

Unfortunately, the routing map of this preceding course was very simple and didn't have any kind of dilineation or reference points on it that I could use to determine if Ross used anything at all from this former course. All I know is most of that preceding course was on the same land as the present Ross course.

This present Ross course has at least a handful of architectural features (greens, fairway contours, etc) that any golf architect should see and store in his mental inventory!

[T_MacWood]

That’s very interesting about Misquamicut’s early course. If I’m not mistaken the club was formed around 1895, Willie Park made an early visit to the States around that time and supposedly laid out a few simple courses (although he never listed Misquamicut as course he designed).

Don’t you think it unlikely that the 12-hole short course would have survived until 1922 or 1923 when Ross was brought in? I would have thought Misquamicut would have kept up with Joness in Rhode Island and set up at least a regulation links. I suspect the course Ross remodeled was the work of another architect sometime between 1900 and 1920. Are there any distinctive features that could be traced to another architect…any sign of Raynor?

Sean mentioned someone named Anderson...who is he?

[SPDB]

Tom -
Willie Anderson was one of the great early professionals. A Scot by birth, he immigrated to America where he was quickly retained as a professional by the Misquamicut Club. I assume he laid out the course, consistent with what Tom wrote.

He won the US Open 3-4 times. I believe he was also later the professional at Apawamis and SLCC.

[ForkaB]

http://www.north-berwick.co.uk/anderson.html

Check out the refernce above re: Willie Anderson.  The bit I like best is about the Western Open he played in where they strung chicken wire across some fairways and put a windmill on one of the greens!  Course setups are so wimpy these days.........

[George Pazin]

University of Florida--Not listed. Did Ross design this course?

There was a thread on this awhile back, maybe as far back as a couple years ago. I think someone was brought in to modernize the course to remain competitive for the big hitting collegians. Someone even posted a link to an article. I seem to recall the article referencing Ross & I think it was Weed who was doing the redo.

Redanman ought to know something about this. And/or John Conley.

[SPDB]

Rich - that's amazing. With the Centennial anniversary of that tournament I think it is only appropriate that Western Golf Assn. should retrofit Cog Hill with such apparati in commemoration.

[T_MacWood]

Sean
I recently stumbled upon an old article on Siwanoy form 1915 written by John G. Anderson, a prominent writer for Golf Illustrated and a top amateur golfer at the time. In the article he discussed the founding of the new course--evidently they planned and dreamt about this new course for 5 to 10 years. Actual construction began two years prior to the article. There was no mention of Ross, in fact one gets the impression the course was designed by a group members, perhaps including Anderson who was a member. I was at the Tuffs archives this summer, and I may be mistaken, but I do not believe they have any material on Siwanoy.

[Mike_Cirba]

I was looking at this list again the other day and there were a number of things that struck me. It appears that in the case where Ross added a new nine and revised an existing nine, he didn't include it on his list. Courses like Vesper, Wianno, CC of New Bedford, Maplewood, Port Judith, Columbus, and Cape Neddick. Overhills and White Bear Yacht are not on the list, two courses where Ross added a new nine to an existing Ross nine -- I wonder of the existing nine might have been the work of another architect. There are a couple of exceptions to the rule--Inverness and Torresdale-Frankfort--both of which Ross lists.

Tom - A couple of points...

Bass River was also a course where Ross added nine to an existing nine, designed by James Shepard.

Torresdale-Frankford, contrary to C&W, was not a revision of 9 by Ross, but instead a completely new 18-hole course on a new site.

Other courses I wonder about:

Seaview(Bay)--Not listed. I know Ross added bunkers here, as did Wilfred Reid, but was it a Ross original design?

A few years back, I thought I read where Ron Whitten came across info that Hugh Wilson actually designed the original Seaview Bay course, with Ross called in a few years later to add extensive bunkering.  It would seem consistent with the Ross records of being only a revising architect of Seaview.

Whitemarsh Valley--Ross takes credit for this course (as a remodel). Was this an extensive remodeling job?

It's hard to imagine an extensive remodeling on such a tight property.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn, however, that Ross helped Thomas more with the original course than is believed, because I believe Ross was around building the original Sunnybrook CC at the time.  

[T_MacWood]

Mike
Very interesting. Ross doesn't list Bass River (which fits into his trend of not listing courses where he added nine to an existing nine) and he does list T-F as one of his designs (which now makes sense).

On Seaview, as I wrote I found mention of Ross being hired to add bunkers, and of course Wilfred Reid had previously (I guess he was the pro at one time).

[SPDB]

Tom - Here is the history, as written by Bill Quirin. It is quite circuitous:

A 9 hole course by the name of Fairview Park originally sat on the present site. A group of men who played there wanted to establish a course closer to home, and so they built a nine-holer in Mt. Vernon, on leased land and established the Siwanoy CC.

In 1903, when their lease was not renewed they moved to another site and built a nine-holer designed by Dunn, which opened in '04.

When a growing membership outgrew the property, they made the decision to expand. The members decided that they would purchase an adjoining piece of land and start over.

It was Donald Ross, however, that saw greater potential in a 110 acre parcel in Bronxville. Ironically, the course sits across the street from the original Fairview Park course.

Unless Donald Ross was simply consulting on land quality, it would seem that he is the designer. And Quirin does give him the credit.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I sure would like to know where Ron Whitten found info on Hugh Wilson and Seaview.  I think he's right about that and that Ross came in later to do some work on an already laid out course.  

The collection of Wilson/Piper/Oakley letters that Tom Paul and I found in the USGA files mention Seaview as early as 1915.  The sense of the letters indicate that it was Wilson that was overseeing this project.  The letters we have show that Wilson dealt early on with the selection of grasses for the greens at Seaview (also Pine Valley and Sunnybrook--both had Taylor method greens) and several years of searching for the right grass seeds for Seaview.  

A 1924 letter regarding a recommendation of F.G. Pickering was that "Mr. Wilson subsequently tried him out in the actual construction work at Seaview, and his characteristics during his employment there were even more pronounced than at Merion."  Fred Pickering got into trouble being too drunk, even for a golf course builder, and was forced off work at Merion during construction of the West Course.  

We have a 1917 Philadelphia newspaper article discussing the book, "Turf for Golf Courses," mentions Wilson as the man "who bult the two famous courses of the Merion Cricket Club and the Seaview Golf Club."  

It wouldn't surprise me if Flynn helped Wilson on this project as they seemed to help each other out when possible.  Wilson died helping Flynn with Marble Hall (now Green Valley).  Flynn was certainly well regarded by Clarence Geist as demonstrated by the work Flynn did on the 9 holes of the Pines Course at Seaview and even more so the great design work at Boca Raton North and South for Geist.

As to Whitemarsh Valley, check my earlier post where I describe the Ross drawings we have and the changes Flynn proposed on the 11th hole.  I agree with you that it was most likely not a large scale redesign.  Do you know if any Thomas drawings exist for WVCC?

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