Ross's List

[T_MacWood]

Donald Ross produced a pamphlet listing his designs. I estimate it was created in 1931 or 1932 and it featured 174 courses (186 if you consider multi-course projects). Today we have a number of Ross lists floating around - C&W and the Ross Society for example - and Ross omitted several courses that he is credited...for whatever reason.

Some courses he did not list: Wellshire (CO), Hartford, Boca Raton, Bobby Jones, Sara Bay, Hyde Park (FL), Oak Park, Poland Springs, Indian Springs (MD), Prince Georges (MD), Bass River, Wianno, CC of New Bedford, Springfield (MA), Whittinsville, White Bear Yacht, Wentworth (NH), Siwanoy, Carolina, Grove Park Inn, Wilmington, Arlington (OH), Columbus, Westbrook (OH), Overbrook, Pocono Manor, Port Judith, Cherokee, Homestead (VA).

He does not list Panama (FL) and Chester Valley (PA) which are now known to be the work of other architects. He also omits Bob O'Link, Echo Lake and Seaview I suspect because they had been redesigned by the time the pamphlet was made.

He also designates sixteen of his accomplishments as remodeling jobs and lists only five 9-hole designs.

Any ideas why some of these other courses were left off his list?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I had always heard that Ross had many courses in the design phase prior to WWI.  When the biz restarted after the war, the routings may have been used, but other architects actually did the detail design, mostly because of pent up demand and Ross just being too busy.

That is the story I heard years ago at Bob O'Link regarding the Ross/Colt/Alison/MacKenzie credit you sometimes see for that course.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

The Flynn drawings that Tom Paul and I have when studied with aerial photographs over time (in many cases courtesy of Craig Disher) show that Prince George's CC (originally Beaver Dam) was initially designed by Ross in 1921 and completely remodeled by Flynn a short time later in 1927.  The course is NLE and the site of the present PGCC is on another piece of property.  

The same sort of analysis demonstrates similarly that Indian Spring, Ross 1922 was changed by Flynn in 1944.  This was the last course designed by Flynn and was initiated by real estate projects that altered the land available for golf.  The current IS is in a different location and both the Chief and Valley courses, I believe, were designed by William and David Gordon.  William Gordon was Flynn's construction foreman on a number of projects and a design protege.

Pocono Manor was a 1919 Ross that was only 6-9 holes.  Flynn changed and/or added the remaining holes to make 18, I'm not yet sure when he did this.  To date, we have identified 10 holes of the existing course that are clearly Flynn based upon individual hole drawings and a routing map by Flynn.

The Donald Ross name carries a great deal of marketing weight today.  There are courses that are clearly Flynn and never were Ross (such as Sewell's Point, formerly Norfolk CC) but have been marketed incorrectly as Ross, with his picture hanging in the clubhouse.  They are not interested in setting the record straight as their reaction is that their marketing would be compromised.  They don't know who William Flynn is and they don't see how his name can benefit their course.  Other courses, that had a Ross lineage but were subsequently overwhelmingly remodeled by Flynn, choose to not recognize Flynn's work which perpetuates the Ross connection.   In some cases this is due to lack of knowledge but in other cases as a concession that a Ross lineage serves them better than a Flynn.  

I firmly believe that the more we know of William Flynn's design career, the more likely it will be for clubs to appreciate and desire to make known the connection.  

[T_MacWood]

I wonder if Ross excluded a number of courses if his company was not involved in their construction.

Westbrook in Ohio is a course that was excluded...its a hell of a course. There is a map in the clubhouse with Walter Hatch's name on it. Did Hatch and McGovern ever moonlight?

Jeff
Ross's design activities prior to WWI have always seemed a little murky to me. I'd guess that he only includes about 40 courses-give or take a few-prior to WWI.

There is only one course on his list that he did not design, he clearly describes it as 'Construction'--Old Elm. After a long and successful design career he was still proud to claim his role under Harry Colt.

Wayne
The only course in Maryland Ross listed is Hagerstown CC. Are you certain Ross designed Pocono Manor?

[Tyler Kearns]

Tom,
     Regarding Hyde Park in Jacksonville, Florida, your theory appears to be true. In 1925, Stanley Thompson opened an office in Jacksonville, and a 1926 advertisement states that he remodeled the course at Hyde Park ("The Toronto Terror"). The extend to which changes were made is not mentioned, however Ross' worked there in 1925, so I would assume they would be minimal.  

Tyler Kearns

[Allan Long]

Tom,

I would be very interested to see the list in the pamphlet. Any way to get a look at the courses Ross listed in the pamphlet?

[T_MacWood]

Alan
Any golf courses in particular your interested in....or state(s)?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Pocono Manor is in PA.  Manor CC is in Maryland.  Ross designed 6 (or so) holes at Pocono Manor from what I've been told, I have not seen any drawings to verify that however.  I think that the Tufts archives have materials that show the connection, or at least I think Mike Cirba told me so.  I could be wrong.  The resort certainly advertises themselves as a Ross.

Manor CC is mostly Flynn with some Collis.  There is no Ross connection.  They are currently deciding on a master plan...I hope they try and maintain a semblance to Flynn.  If Craig Disher has his way, they will.

Given the 1930 or 31 date of the pamphlet, Ross probably did not include courses that were no longer substantially his, such as Prince Georges.  However, Indian Spring was, I believe, Ross until the 1944 Flynn version.  Did the pamphlet imply that the list was a complete one?

The Old Course at the Homestead was Ross (R 1912) until Flynn redesigned the course after his work on the Cascades, sometime around 1925.  Overbrook, in Radnor, PA, was designed by JB Mcgovern and as it was completed in 1952 (Ross died in 1948), I doubt Ross had any involvement.  There was an older course in Overbrook, PA.  Cornish and Whitten state that Ross built the course in 1922.

Although Flynn and Ross were photographed in Boca Raton, I am not aware of any course in Boca Raton that is attributed to Ross.  Both the Boca Raton North and South Course that were built in the late 20s were Flynn.  To me, the loss of these two courses, especially the South, are some of the greatest losses in all of golf architecture.

[Stuart_Bendelow]

The most thorough listing of Donald Ross courses I have come across was in the booklet  "A Directory of Golf Courses Designed by Donald J. Ross", compiled by W. Pete Jones, edited by Michael Senew, and published by Martini Print Media, Inc. Raleigh, NC, 1998.

[Brad Klein]

Stuart,

I have a more detailed listing of courses that amends and corrects the one you refer to. You can find it in my Ross book. "Discovering Donald Ross." I'm in the process of making a few corrections I've been informed of for the second printing. If anyone finds any, please do let me know.

By the way, an intact, proistine condition original of this much-discussed Ross pamphlet has been donated for fund raising purposes and is available (last I heard) to the highest bidder from Tom Stewart's golf shop in Pinehurst, Old Sport. Proceeds go to the Tufts Archives.

[Craig Disher]

I'm puzzled why Ross's Indian Spring design never received wider recognition - and wasn't included on Ross's list. Some of the top local amateurs who played the course in its prime said it was the best in the area. Admittedly, the DC area was somewhat of a golfing backwater in the 20s and 30s but the exclusion of IS from a 1931 list is surprising.

Ross's original hole drawings are very detailed and show that he spent significant time on the design. Each drawing has "ok" written on it, as though he was indicating that his design was constructed correctly. Aerials from the 30s show that his drawings were followed almost exactly.

Tom's comment about another construction company makes plenty of sense to me.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
No the list did not imply it was complete. It is an extensive list however, so there must have been conscious reason why certain courses made the list and others did not. It appears to me to be a pamphlet given to prospective clients and therefore it would be representative of his organizations quality.

Under those circumstances he might exclude courses his guys did not construct and obviously courses that were later remodeled by others. I also wonder if he might have left off some of his early work which might not have been up to snuff...he often added nine to an existing nine, in that case he might inclined to leave it off, fearing he might get associated with the existing nine. And there are probably a few on our current lists that he is mistakenly credited for--perhaps Boca Raton.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Is Athens CC (Ga.) on your list?

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom,

You mention in your first post that we now know that Ross did not design Chester Valley.  Who did?  I know that C&W mention Perry Maxwell, but that is not entirely correct.  He designed the first course for the Pennsylvania Golf Club that later moved to Malvern and reformed under the CVCC name.  In the CVCC history and club notes they make several mentions of Ross being the designer of the new course.  

Chris

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Athens CC is on the list.

Chris
I was under the impression Pennsylvania GC was developed by the Rail Road at Malvern in 1930 (Maxwell). The RR wanted out and sold the course to the members in 1948, at which point the name was changed to Chester Valley. You probably know more about it than I do.

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom,

You're close.  The dates were 1924 on the Maxwell course and it was in Llarnech.  They moved to Malvern in 1930 or so after the completion of the new course by Ross.  I have an aerial that Daniel Wexler sent me of the course as it was in the late 1930s after about 7 or 8 years of non use.  I believe the old PGC course was used as a pulic layout for a few years but was eventually left to pasture.  It is now covered by housing editions.  

[TEPaul]

It's always been my assumption (not conclusion) that the original CVGC (Chester Valley) at its present site was designed by Maxwell not Ross, but that's just an assumption. Ray Cross knows more than I do on that. But what I do know about the present CVGC is whether it was originally Ross or Maxwell who originally did the course on the present site there probably isn't much more than one hole left now. Over the decades the club lost land and the course was almost entirely redone by the Fazios has always been my understanding.

Another good example of missed architectural Ross attribution is Concord G.C. (previously known as Concordville and Brinton Lakes before that). For decades the club thought their course was Ross but in the last two years we proved that to have never been true--it's without question orginally William Flynn. Plans that surfaced after maybe 50 years proved that. Unfortunately the original Flynn course has been largely altered too but what are you going to do when you lose land?

[Allan Long]

Tom,

Interested in seeing what Ross listed in North Carolina. But, to answer a quick question, is Asheboro Muni on the list?

[T_MacWood]

Chris
Here is a little bio on Chester Valley.

http://www.gapgolf.org/history/members/c3_chester_valley_golf_club.htm

Allan
I don't have the list handy...I'll post the NC courses this evening.

[T_MacWood]

North Carolina:

Pinehurst CC (72 holes)
Mid-Pines CC
Pine Needles CC
Southern Pines CC (36 holes)
Biltmore Forest CC
Beaver Lake CC
Asheville Municipal
Charlotte CC
Hope Valley CC
Sedgefield CC (36 holes)
Roaring Gap GC
Forsythe CC
Linville CC
Highland Club (Highlands, NC)

[Steve Lang]

There's only 27 holes at Southern Pines GC (Elks Club) not 36..

The 9 holes south of the main course allways give me the impression that they were a full-scale experiment by Ross in earth moving and green construction.

Perhaps Ran has more perspective to offer..

[A.G._Crockett]

Allan Long,
The Asheboro course appears on some lists, not on others apparently.  I started a thread about it back in Dec. because I was going to play it in Jan., and the best info seemed to be that the city of Asheboro had unearthed old newspaper clippings, as well as the original drawings, and that the course is by Ross.
Date of that thread would be somewhere around Dec. 20, I believe.

[T_MacWood]

Where is Asheboro and when was it built?

Steve
Sothern Pines was 36 holes. Sedgefield is only 18 today...it too was 36.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tom MacWood
Asheboro (the town) is near Greensboro.  The course is nine holes, built as a WPA project during the Depression, I think.  1936 maybe?

You can pay about $15 and walk all day. No restaurant, no logo golf balls, no logo shirts;  just 9 holes of really old-style golf, no matter who designed it!  It is very easy to believe that it is a Ross course when you play it, and you'll also want to use a chainsaw to take out a number of pines that obviously shouldn't be there, especially just off the 9th tee.

BTW, Hope Valley in Durham is also a Ross course, currently being "restored" by Brian Silva and set to reopen in Oct. if the grow-in of the greens stays on schedule.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Wayne,

The earlier mentioned Hagerstown C.C.  Is this now called Fountain Head C. C.? Thanks.

SBR