Classic Chicago/Wisconsin golf

[John McCarthy]

Played Elgin Highlands today.  It was a barrel of monkeys.
 Dry, firm and fast for a public course.

It is in the permanent rotation. 

[Brian Hilko]

Sven- I agree with some of your points on number 3 at ravi. The tree on the right isn't that bad unless your right in the little bit of rough that exists. I love the bunkers an the fince because I love to challenge these hazards. Sometimes it might not be the best play but I feel the need to take the aggresive line. The same can be said when I play a cape hole. Even though I should play safe away from the dogleg I usaully find myself challenging the corner. That is why I like that tee shot so much. When I play passive my swing becomes passive and I make dumb mistakes. This is also why I love Lawsonia so much. I feel like every tee there is an aggresive line I can take.

[Mark Johnson]

my rankings

Ravisloe   4
Harborside (either one) 5
Big Run 4
Bolingbrook 4
Prairie Landing 6.5
Cog #4 7
Cog #2 4
Ruffled Feathers 4
Orchard Valley 5
Highlands of Elgin 7
Thunderhawk 5
Pine Meadow 7.5
Glen Ellyn 4
Cantigny 6 (if its the championship 18)
The Glen Club 6  (though much lower for price/value)
Shepherd's Crook 4

To add perspective,  here is how I would rate the Chicago private.   Note I am only including the ones I have played -- so dont ask why there are some top courses not on this list.   Looking bad at my public rating, i feel good about them with the exception of prairie landing which might be high.

Chicago 9
Black Sheep 8  (love love love... if i ever moved back to chicago this is where I would want to join without a doubt, could play everyday).
Medinah 3 8
Medinah 1 6.5
Rich Harvest 5.5
St. Charles 6
Royal Fox 3
Aurora 4.5
Exmoor 7
OFN 7.5
OFS 6.5
Butterfield 6
Bob O Link 6.5
Indian Hill 3
Westmoreland 5
Merit Club 5.5  
Conway 6
Bull Valley 7 (I know this is way higher than most, but there is something about this course I love even though there are still a few major issues)
North Shore 4
Elgin 5
Skokie 5.5
Lake Shore 5

[Sven Nilsen]

Mark:

Not to nitpick, but interested to hear a bit more about the following ratings:

Skokie at a 5.5 (and what makes Bob O'Link and OFS better courses)
Exmoor at a 7

[Sean_A]

Same list with my scores, prices (weekend walking) and thoughts:

Ravisloe (6) - $60 - might not be as well conditioned as when it was private, but they do try to keep it fairly F&F

Harborside (either one)(4) - $95 - might look pretty, but the deep rough is kept way too thick and turf is generally soft

Big Run (5) - $50 - lose some trees and there's probably a decent course to be found

Bolingbrook (3) - $100 - This, not The Glen Club, is the most overpriced course in the area.

Prairie Landing (6) - $84 - Solid, and fairly well priced.

Cog #4 (6) - $155 - Pocket the $98, kick yourself in the nuts and play Cog #2 instead, you'll be better off.

Cog #2 (5) - $57 - See above.

Ruffled Feathers (4) - $105 - Over-priced, over-water hazarded and over-housed, but their early season deals make it tolerable.

Orchard Valley (5) - $61 - Where Ruffled Feathers should be priced.

Highlands of Elgin (6) - $46 - Totally worth it, although not the easiest walk.

Thunderhawk (6) - $62 - Some complain that the course takes the driver out of your hand.  True in spots, but generally a fun course.

Pine Meadow (6) - $73 - Big and brawny, but lacking in the fun factor.  Generally conditioning has been lacking and has a very fuzzy feel.

Glen Ellyn (NA) - $59 - Never played, hear its a good value.

Cantigny (6) - $95 - When the greens are running and you play the best 18 hole combo, this is pretty good.  Still overpriced.

The Glen Club (6) - $155-185 - I'd rather play twice (in some cases 4X) at the rest of the courses on the list.  Not overly difficult in parts.

Shepherd's Crook (6) - $45 - F&F, walking encouraged, cheap, great ground game options and green contours.  Have to stomach the garbage dump.

I know Pat Craig, and I'm sorry he spent so much time playing Wilmette.  There are better options within a half hour's drive.  Winnetka is built on the town's flood plain, and it shows.  To rank either of those courses above or equal to Shepherd's Crook, Thunderhawk, Cog #2 or Rav is silly.

To give you some basis for analysis, I'd give Skokie, OFN, Beverly, Butler and The Dunes Club an 8, and Flossmoor, OFS, Knollwood and Old Elm a 7.

I guess I have to make my way to Chicago for public golf.  Those Doak scores look incredibly high.  To put it in some sort of perspective, I would rate the following courses which I think are very good

Beau Desert 6
Huntercombe 6
Brora 6
Portrush Valley 5
Aberdovey 6
The New Course 6
Notts 6
Worplesdon 6
Machrihanish 6
Hunstanton 6

If I am getting that sort of quality at those prices Chicago is an unbeatable place for public golf.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

While I generally agree with Sven's relative rankings, I think you'd find some grade inflation in terms of absolute levels.  If Chicago's public courses were that good, and given that they're fairly plentiful, there probably wouldn't be dozens of private clubs able to successfully hit up their membership for $50k down and $10k/year...my guess is the Son of Confidential Guide might not have any of them above a 5, and I'm not sure I'd put up much of a fight with that assessment...

Sven,

Where'd you rank Stonewall Orchard?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:

I think its says something about the general wealth of golf where you currently reside that your 6 would probably be a Chicagoan's 7 or 8.

"6: A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

7: An excellent course, worth checking out if within 50-100 miles. You can expect sound design; interesting hiles; good conditions and a pretty setting; if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8: One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special. "

Jud:

Stonewall is a 4 or 5.  Its a course that I like in parts but can't stand in others, even before you get to 18.

[George Freeman]

To be honest, IMO, I'm not sure if there are any public courses in Chicago-land that would make a Doak '6' in my book...  Plenty of 4s and 5s though.

[Brian Hilko]

Sven-  Have you played willow hill? If so what did you think? I know the drawbacks of the course but I really have a lot of fun playing it. I have made it somewhat of a tradition to stop there everytime I play on the northside for a bonus 9. If your hitting the ball well it is also an ego booster. I love the movement in the greens and how firm the course can play. We always joke that the 4th is the poor man's erin hills with the church as the backdrop. The course is a big guilty pleasure for me.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I think its says something about the general wealth of golf where you currently reside that your 6 would probably be a Chicagoan's 7 or 8.

"6: A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

7: An excellent course, worth checking out if within 50-100 miles. You can expect sound design; interesting hiles; good conditions and a pretty setting; if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8: One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special. "

Jud:

Stonewall is a 4 or 5.  Its a course that I like in parts but can't stand in others, even before you get to 18.

Sven

Well to pick numbers out of the air, a 7 is probably 40-150 in the world (so a legitimate claim as top 100 world and what I would call a great course) with a 6 being 150-400ish.  While not threatening the best, its damn good golf - plenty good enough for me to last a life time.  It seems to me that its a long shot that Chicago has 9 public courses which are top 400ish (or even top 500ish when we put it that way) in the world. Of course, I could be overly strict in my grading.  Its in my nature to be conservative about this sort of thing because its seems prudent to be so.

Anyway, I wouldn't be adverse to playing Ravisloe.  Pics of the course make it look not all that different to a down market Flossmoor.

Ciao   

[Mark Johnson]

Mark:

Not to nitpick, but interested to hear a bit more about the following ratings:

Skokie at a 5.5 (and what makes Bob O'Link and OFS better courses)
Exmoor at a 7

I though Exmoor had incredibly good flow and was really a great test with a variety of required shots.  Conditioning was nearly perfect.  Though there werent many template holes, there was a very old school template feel.   The medium par 3 on the front (7 or is probably one of my favorite in Chicago.

The course felt alot like Yale in the way it flowed.   I also loved how there was no wasted space.     If I ever moved to the north shore, this would be the place i'd want to join (not like they would let me in though).

I thought Skokie was solid but Unspectuclar.  I didnt think there was anything bad about it but there really wasn't anything memorable either.   I am usually very good at remember details of courses even if I have only played them once.  I know that one week after playing Skokie nothing really stood out.   It was a nice walk, but I would not necessarily

[Mark Johnson]

Sven-  Have you played willow hill? If so what did you think? I know the drawbacks of the course but I really have a lot of fun playing it. I have made it somewhat of a tradition to stop there everytime I play on the northside for a bonus 9. If your hitting the ball well it is also an ego booster. I love the movement in the greens and how firm the course can play. We always joke that the 4th is the poor man's erin hills with the church as the backdrop. The course is a big guilty pleasure for me.

That course is a good time.   Played in an afterwork league there when I worked in northbrook.   Great use of land and one of the better short par 9 holers.   In addition to 4, I really liked the downhill par 3  2nd hole alot too.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

I think you're referring to the 3rd hole.  #2 is a short par 4.  The other nice thing about this course is it is one of the highest elevations in the pancake flat area and frequently gets some strong winds, which adds to the linksy feel. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:

I guess the point I was trying to make in my last post is that the application of a 1-10 scale (whether the Doak scale or your own interpretation) is a very subjective exercise.  One man's 7 may be another man's 5.  My scale seems to be a bit top-heavy on a comparative basis, but if you look at the groupings (as noted by Jud) you'll get a better idea of where things rank on a comparative basis.    

To break it down a bit further using your assertions, I guess I would disagree with your statement that there are only 150 7's or greater in the world.  The application of the Doak scale comes down to how you interpret the term "excellent" and whether you'd be willing to travel the 50-100 miles to see it.  There's a big group of courses out there that I would travel at least 50 miles to play, but I'm basically an addict when it comes to golf.

In my mind, on a regional basis a 7 equates to a top course but not necessarily a course in the elite tier for that region.  In Chicago, that elite tier is made up of Shoreacres, OFN, Skokie and the other 8's I noted (I am guessing CGC would fall into this group if not higher, I haven't played it).  I have no issues rating 10 or so courses in Chicago as 7 or higher (its a pretty big metro area and there are a surprising number of golf courses here for a town that is buried in snow for 5 months of the year).   If you work through the numbers that probably means that on a worldwide basis I'd have more than 150 courses at this level.  Just by perusing the Golf Week lists, there are very few courses noted on the U.S. and GB&I/modern and classics listings that I'd give less than a 7.

And I would think there are more than 400 in the world that rate as a 6 or higher.  Using the Doak scale again, there are a ton of courses I would play that I would consider "very good," "worth a game" and that "probably won't disappoint."  It comes down to what these terms mean to the individual based on their standards and their breadth of experience.  I happen to think there is a lot of very good golf out there, perhaps that view is a bit naive.  I hope not.

If I ever get the chance to do an extensive tour of Scotland and England, lets revisit this topic.  I may then be of the mindset that there isn't anything in the midwest worthy of a 3.

Brian:

Had not even heard of Willow Hill, will give it a go some time soon.  The funny thing about guilty pleasures, there's no slot on the Doak scale to account for the personal fun factor that some courses provide.

[Sven Nilsen]

Dave:

Took the liberty of breaking your list down into groups (ratings of 5 or higher):

8.5's - Chicago, Old Elm, Shoreacres

8's - Butler, Medinah 3, OFN,

7.5's - Beverly, Skokie

7's - Black Sheep, Butterfield, Exmoor, Flossmoor,

6.5's - OFS, North Shore, Knollwood, Glen View,

6's - Rich Harvest, Merit, Cog #4, Bull Valley, Briarwood

5.5's - Barrington Hills, Bob O'Link, Cantigny, Conway Farms, Edgewood Valley, Glen Club, Kemper, La Grange, Medinah 1, Pine Meadow, Thunderhawk, Glen Ellyn, Wynstone

5's - Evanston, Glen Oaks, Lake Shore, Northmoor, Onwentsia, Orchard Valley, Prairie Landing, Ravisloe, Sunset Ridge, Westmoreland

[Jud_T]

Dave,

There's no question that Chicago has a plethora of decent public options, particularly compared to places like New York.  Certainly folks will always join clubs for the pool, the dining, the status, the conditioning, the convenience and the lack of crowds as well as great golf.  My point is if the decision were Rustic Canyon vs. Riviera rather than Wilmette vs. Skokie, the decision would be less obvious for some...

[Sven Nilsen]

If the standard for a Doak 6 is that it's worth it to drive 50-100 miles to play, you're right that there aren't that many that fit the bill.

I believe you noted the standard for a 7, not a 6.

[Sven Nilsen]

Dave:

Took the liberty of breaking your list down into groups (ratings of 5 or higher):

8.5's - Chicago, Old Elm, Shoreacres

8's - Butler, Medinah 3, OFN,

7.5's - Beverly, Skokie

7's - Black Sheep, Butterfield, Exmoor, Flossmoor,

6.5's - OFS, North Shore, Knollwood, Glen View,

6's - Rich Harvest, Merit, Cog #4, Bull Valley, Briarwood

5.5's - Barrington Hills, Bob O'Link, Cantigny, Conway Farms, Edgewood Valley, Glen Club, Kemper, La Grange, Medinah 1, Pine Meadow, Thunderhawk, Glen Ellyn, Wynstone

5's - Evanston, Glen Oaks, Lake Shore, Northmoor, Onwentsia, Orchard Valley, Prairie Landing, Ravisloe, Sunset Ridge, Westmoreland

Thanks Sven. Like all creators of lists, I think mine is 100% dead nuts right!

Pretty close, but you do have Shepherd's Crook way to low.

[Jud_T]

Shivas,

Old Elm is awesome, but 8.5 would put it 16th on Golfweek's Classic list ahead of the likes of LACC, WFW, Riviera & GCGC.  Perhaps a tad too high....

[Sven Nilsen]

Jud:

Does the GW list work off of an average Doak score?  Or do they use their own calculation?

Sven

[Jud_T]

They use their own calculation, but I don't think I'd say Tom was noticeably more generous with his scoring on a relative basis.

[Sven Nilsen]

I'll let Dave respond for himself, but I think the better discussion would be what rating he would give those courses in light of the 8.5's he's listed for Chicago. 

There's no direct correlation between a Doak scale score and the calculation used by GW to compile their rankings.

[Jud_T]

Either way 8.5's too high for Old Elm.  It's very good, but not in the same league as CGC or Shoreacres IMO.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I guess the point I was trying to make in my last post is that the application of a 1-10 scale (whether the Doak scale or your own interpretation) is a very subjective exercise.  One man's 7 may be another man's 5.  My scale seems to be a bit top-heavy on a comparative basis, but if you look at the groupings (as noted by Jud) you'll get a better idea of where things rank on a comparative basis.    

To break it down a bit further using your assertions, I guess I would disagree with your statement that there are only 150 7's or greater in the world.  The application of the Doak scale comes down to how you interpret the term "excellent" and whether you'd be willing to travel the 50-100 miles to see it.  There's a big group of courses out there that I would travel at least 50 miles to play, but I'm basically an addict when it comes to golf.

In my mind, on a regional basis a 7 equates to a top course but not necessarily a course in the elite tier for that region.  In Chicago, that elite tier is made up of Shoreacres, OFN, Skokie and the other 8's I noted (I am guessing CGC would fall into this group if not higher, I haven't played it).  I have no issues rating 10 or so courses in Chicago as 7 or higher (its a pretty big metro area and there are a surprising number of golf courses here for a town that is buried in snow for 5 months of the year).   If you work through the numbers that probably means that on a worldwide basis I'd have more than 150 courses at this level.  Just by perusing the Golf Week lists, there are very few courses noted on the U.S. and GB&I/modern and classics listings that I'd give less than a 7.

And I would think there are more than 400 in the world that rate as a 6 or higher.  Using the Doak scale again, there are a ton of courses I would play that I would consider "very good," "worth a game" and that "probably won't disappoint."  It comes down to what these terms mean to the individual based on their standards and their breadth of experience.  I happen to think there is a lot of very good golf out there, perhaps that view is a bit naive.  I hope not.

If I ever get the chance to do an extensive tour of Scotland and England, lets revisit this topic.  I may then be of the mindset that there isn't anything in the midwest worthy of a 3.

Brian:

Had not even heard of Willow Hill, will give it a go some time soon.  The funny thing about guilty pleasures, there's no slot on the Doak scale to account for the personal fun factor that some courses provide.

Sven

I tried to take 7 based on the number Doak rated.  Okay, he missed some, misjudged others and more courses have been built - so maybe 200-250 are 7s (but that does sound high to me)?  For sure, it comes down to personal preference.  Doak sets the 50-100 mile limit, but I would travel that far for plenty of 6s and 5s, but not for several 7s.  Even so, a 7 is really about saying it is a candidate for top 100 world when we look at then number of 8-10s Doak awarded.  I think his scale is as much about the description (I think he is deliberately conservative in this because his number is essentially a guide for recommending and he didn't want folks to be disappointed) as it is about how many courses there are at each level.  In fact, because there are only 73 courses rated between 8-10 it tells me he thinks those are shoe in top 100 world.  I spose if Doak updated his list there is a chance that no 7s would make top 100 because of new builds and seeing some courses he hadn't previously. 

Anyway, its interesting to see how folks approach recommending courses.  I know for the Detroit area there isn't a single public course I would recommend unless someone was going to be in the very near vicinity or a guy was desperate and didn't have access to privates.  There are a few I like, but none would be higher than a 5 (Shepherd's Hollow).  It sounds like Chicago has a much better choice.
 

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:

I've copied the GW rankings of Illinois and Michigan public courses below.  I think you're on to something regarding the Detroit v. Chicago comparison.  The Illinois list has a high concentration of courses in the Chicagoland area, while the Michigan list contains very few courses from the regions near Detroit.  I'm sure someone may come up with a theory based on socio-economic factors to explain the dichotomy, but that kind of analysis is beyond my pay grade.  Maybe it just means that people from Detroit go elsewhere to play their golf, while Chicagoans stay local.

Illinois

1) Cog Hill (No) 4 Dubsdread), Lemont (m)

2) Highlands of Elgin, Elgin (m)

3) Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)

4) The Glen Club, Glenview (m)

5) TPC at Deere Run, Silvis (m)

6) Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m)

7) Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m)

Bowes Creek, Elgin (m)

9) Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m)

10) Harborside International (Starboard), Chicago (m)

11) Cantigny, Wheaton (m)

12) Annbriar GC, Waterloo (m)

13) Stonewall Orchard GC, Grayslake (m)

14) Ravisloe CC, Homewood (c)*

15) Harborside International (Port), Chicago (m)


Michigan

1) Arcadia Bluffs, Arcadia (No) 29 m)

2) Greywalls at Marquette GC, Marquette (No. 81 m)

3) Forest Dunes, Roscommon (No) 87 m)

4) Tullymore, Stanwood (m)

5) Belvedere GC, Charlevoix (c)

6) Lakewood Shores Resort (Gailes), Oscoda (m)

7) Black Lake, Onaway (m)

TimberStone GC, Iron Mountain (m)

9) Black Forest at Wilderness Valley, Gaylord (m)

10) Treetops North (Smith), Gaylord (m)

11) Eagle Eye GC at Hawk Hollow, Bath (m)

12) Angels Crossing, Vicksburg (m)

13) Bay Harbor (Links/Quarry), Bay Harbor (m)

14) Sweetgrass, Harris (m)

15) True North, Harbor Springs (m)

16) University of Michigan GC, Ann Arbor (c)

17) Pilgrim’s Run, Pierson (m)

18) Treetops North (Fazio), Gaylord (m)

19) Orchards GC, Washington (m)

20) Mines GC, Grand Rapids (m)