Denver Redux

[David Harshbarger]

Round 1 playing in Denver is in the bag.  CommonGround Golf Course was the beneficiary of my attention:

Lot of things to like in this course:

1.) had a Golden Age feel in many parts.  Top Shot bunker on 11 and companion bunker on inside of dogleg combine to hide the safe landing area while seeding doubt about attacking bunker.  Mounds right of 11green. Cross bunkers on 18. Deep Swale fronting 2.  Centerline bunker and cross bunker on 3. Slightly right hairy mounds on 5 or 6. Blind tee shot going up 8.  All of these features reminded me of Golden Age features.

2.) super wide fairways. 18 holes - 1 Ball.

3.) Bunkers maintained with short cut, just above fairway, on the entrances.

4.)routing intertwined both 9's, yet gets back to near clubhouse after 9 w/o feeling like a double-out-and-back.

5.). Excellent internal green contours.

6.). good fun.

Tuesday I'm back in Denver again.  What do folks recommend?  Some I think are interesting:

Wellshire - Ross, may be bones, only.
Fossil Trace - Engh, looks like balls to the walls
Fitzsimmons- Army Corp of Engineers-old and with an odd pedigree.
The Heritage - Hurdzan/Fry

Among privates

Denver CC-Foulis et al.
Hiwan - Press Maxwell
Valley Club - Billy Bell
Lakewood - Ross/Bendelow
Colorado Golf Club - Coore and Crenshaw

Any suggestions are welcome.

BTW, who is Dick Phelps?  He sure seems to have left his mark?

Thanks, Dave

[Sam Morrow]

Dick Phelps has done some decent stuff around DFW. Nothing I would go out of my way for but I've played worse.

[David Harshbarger]

Sam,  thanks for that.  I'm flying 1500 miles, so I'll look at others.  Someday, though.  Bill Mitchell is a NE architect with a long resume from slightly before Phelps.  Sounds like they may be similar, lots of competent, fun courses, many to most public.  If I get out to Denver enough I'd cycle him in, if he is like that.

[Sam Morrow]

Good call, no offense to him but there is better stuff to see in and around Denver.

[Matthew Rose]

Wellshire is interesting anyway. Not kept up particularly well, though.

Fossil Trace is a lot of fun and very playable. You can score there.

Heritage at Westmoor is wide open but difficult anyway.

If you can get down to Castle Rock, Plum Creek is an old Pete Dye which is a little tired looking but still interesting and can be had for a bargain some points during the week.

Don't play Legacy Ridge, Hyland Hills or Thorncreek.

[David Harshbarger]

Matthew,

I don't have the patience to figure out Hyland Hills musical chairs of layouts, and now I won't try!

Feeling better about Fossil Trace.  Never played an Engh course and have heard he may not be everyone's cup of tea.  Really found him interesting and unorthodox from the Feature Interview.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/jim-engh-october-2006/

Is Pradera worth a phone call?

[Derek_Duncan]

Matthew,

I don't have the patience to figure out Hyland Hills musical chairs of layouts, and now I won't try!

Feeling better about Fossil Trace.  Never played an Engh course and have heard he may not be everyone's cup of tea.  Really found him interesting and unorthodox from the Feature Interview.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/jim-engh-october-2006/
Is Pradera worth a phone call?

Pradera is worth a call, but if you're going to be in that area, put the call in to Colorado Golf Club.

Fossil Trace is indeed fun, somewhere in the middle of the Engh severity spectrum.

Riverdale Dunes and Murphy Creek out on the east side of town are two courses you need to play if you'll be spending time in Denver.

Off the plane public list for me:

Riverdale Dunes
CommonGround
Murphy Creek
Fossil Trace
Bear Dance (a little farther south near Castle Rock)

[Pete Balzer]

Skip Fossil Trace and Pradera, you'll be glad you did.

 Try to get on at either Colorado Golf Club or Hiwan. 

A public  course worth  playing is Arrowhead

[Andy Troeger]

David,

I'll strongly disagree with Pete about skipping Pradera. You have to decide for yourself whether you enjoy Engh's style or not, but if you're coming to Colorado you owe it to yourself to try at least one of his courses. Pradera has most of his "template" features. I haven't seen Fossil Trace, but I would guess you could get the flavor there as well. Depending on your ability to get out of town, you might enjoy his Four Mile Ranch in Canon City that's built with no bunkers and quite a few blind shots.

If you can get on Colorado Golf Club then that's the best option of the ones mentioned. I liked Bear Dance quite a bit out of the publics mentioned. Hiwan is nice enough, but honestly wasn't as good as I expected. I also played The Ridge at Castle Pines North (Weiskopf) and Red Hawk Ridge (Engh) in Castle Rock, but neither would be real high on my suggestion list, although both have their moments.

[Mark Saltzman]

As usual, I agree with most of what Andy Troeger says.

Colorado was by the far best I played in Denver. 

I've played about half-a-dozen Engh courses and I can now say for sure that I don't enjoy his work.  Four Mile Ranch, south of Denver, looks interesting to me.  Pradera did not impress me at all, but as Andy says, if you're coming out to Colorado you really should make the effort to see at least one of Engh's courses.

Haven't played it, but I was told Ravenna is very good.

[David Harshbarger]

Clearly, Engh's polarizing reputation has been earned.  Good point about seeing his work when in the area, I'll bump him up the list.  Colorado Golf Club has shot up the list, not sure how I missed it. 

I have no idea how many opportunities I'll have in this travel cycle so quality and local flavor are key. 

Being a newbie on GCA, my Golf CV is most notable for the gaps, so CommonGrounds was my first Doak. Many of these courses would be my first by someone, including Dye, Moorish, C&C, Flynn, Maxwell, Maxwell, Bell, Bendelow, Engh, and Phelps.  Makes a target rich field :-)

Thanks to everyone, my current ranking is:

Select Private clubs as opportunities present.
Fossil Trace

Then looking for good ops on Plum Creek, Arrowhead, The Heritage, Murphy Creek, and Riverdale.  at least for now :-)

[Tom_Doak]

David:

I hope you will go to Fossil Trace, and I hope you will check back in and tell us exactly what you thought of it.  The reviews I've heard have been, well, mixed.  Believe it or not, I was discussing it this morning with a clubhouse architect who lives in Denver, on our project here in China.

I appreciate the feedback on Common Ground.  I would say that your points #1 through 6 were pretty much exactly what we were aiming for there.

[Doug Wright]

David, you really should play Fossil Trace this trip as it will give you the full flavor of Jim Engh's style. Other than suggesting you note how the course was routed in such severe and constricted terrain, I won't say anything more but let you play it and comment.

Others mentioned like Riverdale Dunes, Murphy Creek, Bear Dance are publics worth a subsequent visit. Take Arrowhead off your list. It is a nice course for tourists due to the wow factor of the red rock formations it plays through, but as a golf course it is very disappointing.

[Howard Riefs]

CommonGround: Loved. Thrilled it's 3/4 mile from my sister's home.

Murphy Creek: Great test worthy of a return

Fossil Creek: Meh. Wouldn't play again.

[Kirk Gill]

I threw a few photos of Fossil Trace on a thread a while back. They'll give you an idea of what you might find there.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35340.0.html

I'd agree that the reviews of the course are mixed - it was built on a difficult bit of ground, and a few holes on the course suffer for that. Pradera may be "better" overall, but is less quirky.

As to other Denver offerings, I agree with most of the opinions already offered, although when recommending Arrowhead I have to say that it is the beauty of the place that impresses more than the golf. Nearby Ravenna is a better course to me, although it suffers due to a large hogback that has to be negotiated twice during the round. Without a cart that would be a long walk and climb, and with a cart it's a pretty hairy drive. I'm not sure of Ravenna's status - the phone numbers I've found online all appear to be disconnected.

I'll join the chorus of those lauding CommonGround. It's fun, it's challenging, it's a great walk. Murphy Creek is an Aurora municipal designed by Ken Kavanaugh that is terrific. You might enjoy Wellshire if you could get a copy of Ross' drawings for the course and enjoy yourself comparing the design with what's left on the ground.

[Matthew Rose]

Forgot about Murphy Creek and Riverdale. Have played both......

Murphy was pretty wide open and really long.

Riverdale is PB Dye (?) I think. I think Tom D worked on it. If you don't wish to go down to Plum Creek, this one will give you some Dye flavor.

Fossil seems to be unloved.... I'll admit my opinion may be inflated due to my tendency to shoot low scores there.

There are actually two Phelps' who did a lot of the publics in town. There's Rick and Dick, but sometimes they're credited as Richard with a middle initial so you never know which one is which. Of course, the architecture is generally mediocre and indistinguishable regardless of which Phelps it is.

[Scott Szabo]

I would make an effort to see Riverdale Dunes.  I was there yesterday and really enjoyed myself.  I believe the course is a Pete Dye design, with a bit of work done by Tom Doak, if memory serves me correctly. Hard to beat for the price.

[David Harshbarger]

Thanks everyone.  What a great group here.

The winner in the Second Course in the Denver area to accept a green fee from D Harshbarger palooka is.....Fossil Trace.

I have now entered the cone of silence, and will learn no more of this course until I emerge Tuesday afternoon.

Anyone interested in joining me?  1-ish in Golden.

Dave

[Jay Flemma]

I actually like Red Hawk Ridge more than Fossil.  Sanctuary is cool too.

[Stephen Davis]

I am excited to hear that you are going to play Fossile Trace. I played there a couple of months ago and I had a lot of fun. It is definitely quirky, but i thoroughly enjoyed myself. I think if one is looking for a traditional course, than FT is not it. If you are looking for a different and IMO fun course, you could do much worse.

[Kalen Braley]

I'll add my two cents to the thread.

I'll also highly recommend Murphy Creek, I thought it was a pretty darn good course.  The only downside was all the housing on the back 9 which made a few holes feel pinched in.

I'd also say pass on Hiwan too.  It was a nice course, but most of the holes felt like holes you would see on almost any treed muni, there was just nothing interesting there to see IMO.

As for Engh, you do indeed need to see at least one of his courses! I've played 4 of his courses now and while they may not be everyone's cup of tea, they are certainly very fun to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

The same day I played Fossil Trace we played Evergreen http://www.cityofdenvergolf.com/evergreen.htm it is very inexpensive and I believe the highest elevated course you can play.  I without question hit some career drives, which is never a bad thing.

Fossil Trace/Evergreen is a great twofer hit and run.  The Moose interaction is a bonus.

[Scott Sander]

Wish I'd seen this earlier, if only to add another voice to the Murphy Creek recommendations.  
#3 is one of the finest golf holes I've ever seen or played.  Sometimes I daydream about it.
15 of the other 17 ain't too shabby, either.

JK-
Evergreen is a hoot.  It's also like a scraggly second-cousin, twice-removed of Fossil Trace.  Both have large rock formations in play in ways that would make many folks here turn sour quite quickly.

To those in-the-know - is Riverdale Dunes still terribly overwatered?  So many cool shots just weren't playable most summers there.  My favorite time to play there was actually the dead of winter.  

Also - how have the lesser-discussed late 90's/Early 00's boom courses fared?  Green Valley Ranch, Fox Hollow, Deer Creek, Canterbury.... those all had some flaws but were at least INTERESTING.  Another -Highlands Ranch- was criminally overpriced, but I liked it.  

I lived in Denver for 7 years and played 2 or 3 times a week almost every month of every year, but I haven't been back in 8 years.  I am eager to return to see what was Mira Vista then and is CommonGround now.  I kept my card there one year, but I struggle to recall even two holes.  There was certainly room to do something memorable out there, and I'm excited to hear that it happened!

Sorry for the ramble.  Anyway - play Murphy Creek when you go back.

[Matthew Rose]

Thinking about taking a trip up to Breck or Vail and playing some mountain golf. I have a significant wedding anniversary coming up and the lady wants to go up.

I'm thinking two rounds, perhaps once on Breck which I understand is very good and reasonably priced. I'm looking for another nearby that isn't too expensive... I'm trying to keep it under $100 a round. Unfortunately that rules out Red Sky, which I've heard is awesome.

[Tom_Doak]

Riverdale is PB Dye (?) I think. I think Tom D worked on it. If you don't wish to go down to Plum Creek, this one will give you some Dye flavor.

Riverdale Dunes was officially designed by Pete and Perry Dye.  [P.B. only worked east of the Mississippi at that time.]  Perry actually lived in Denver, and we were building two courses there at the time -- Rod Whitman was working for Perry on Glenmoor [right near Cherry Hills], while I was working on Riverdale Dunes with Jim Urbina and John Reidinger.  Glenmoor was the bigger deal for Perry, who was living down in Castle Rock, so he didn't come up to Riverdale too often.  His dad came for three or four days during the summer I worked there.

I worked with Jim on shaping some of the greens, and then finished the rest myself when he had to go back to teach school at the end of the summer [Jim was still working part-time for Perry at that point].  Perry gave me a lot of freedom to make things up as I went along.  It was the first chance I'd had to contribute much of anything to the finished golf course, and I tried to make the most of it.  By the end of the job, I knew I would be able to go build a project on my own someday; it just came about sooner than I expected.

Jim and Eric Iverson go back to play Riverdale Dunes on occasion, and I've heard them both say the same thing Scott Sander did, that the best time of all is in the winter when it's half frozen.