[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Charles Blair Macdonald wrote that he was the first golf course architect but I decided to see if he really deserves the title. When it was obvious when all the nooks and crannies had not been checked, I asked for some assistance. I was surprised and illuminated by much of what was found.

Check out the story here: http://tinyurl.com/bwz4e5q

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

A claim that was as reliable as a good Featherie ball in a downpour on TOC.

One wonders if the term architect is more associated with drawings which were not used much in the 19th Century, mainly as ‘AS BUILT’ record drawing undertaken after the event (design). Classic example is that of Muirfield designed in December 1890 but drawing not produced until December 1891 six months after the course’s formal opening day.

The key I believe relates to architectural quality drawings originally produced by engineers/surveyors as points of records for courses/councils but not as design and build drawings.

For the record my vote goes to Allan Robertson as the first designer/architect due to actually designing golf courses and making constructive changes to existing. He was doing this in the late 1840/50’s way before CBM even thought of visited St Andrews.

Of course it’s also subject to ones definition of the word Architect. But then IMHO all golf courses are designed by Designers not Architects.

Melvyn

[Doug Ralston]

Melvyn, I would have thought the first aspect of architect definition is that they do the job full time, not just once?

Doug

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn:

I am ignorant on the subject but did Allan Robertson make design changes outside of St. Andrews?  Or did he lay out any new courses from scratch?

To some extent, the first golf course architect was simply the first guy to suggest playing to a particular green site, that everyone agreed made for an interesting hole.  That definition wouldn't pass muster with many people, who insist that the earth must be changed for someone to take up the mantle of "architect", but as Anthony's article shows, the real use of the title has always been for the purpose of excluding one's contemporaries.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Allan laid out a few courses, one recently mention was Cupar, plus he made changes to Carnoustie as well as TOC. He did a few more designs, but I am not currently able to open my archives so can’t name them all. But yes he did design and supervised the building and modification of one or two.

Allan started it and was assisted by a young Old Tom. He did more that you mentioned he was a hands on guy, but would have been back then when drawings were not the normal not just from the designers but who would actually understand them in the clubs, not generally the Members or the committee. Drawings as used re golf were the domain of the surveyors who only did them upon a commission from a client on a finished design. That will explain the need for designers to play the course with a few to explain the design. They in turn showed the rest of the members how the course played. These first games was the way the design was explained in detail to the clubs as most people back then where ignorant of how to read a plan drawing. As I said designers back then had a hands on approach.

Melvyn

[Mike_Young]

Anthony,
I think the word came about by a some gentleman golfers that may have thought it beneath themselves to be called a golf course builder.  And since that time  guys have tried  to justify the existence of such a title.  I think this last little slowdown will basically take it back to where golf is design/build and the volumes of drawings etc will cease.  If the drawings are needed there will be an engineer there to do them.  JMO

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

My goal was simply to find who was first called a golf course architect, not who was the golf course architect.  To me, they are entirely different topics.

Anthony

[Tom MacWood]

If you re-read what CBM wrote I think he claimed to have been the first to coin the term golf architect; I'm pretty sure he knew he wasn't the first GA. Robertson maybe the first documented, but I'm sure there were others before him. I guess it depends on your definition of a golf architect.

[Melvyn Morrow]

We have to work on documented evidence, so I again put Allan Robertson as my nomination for the grand title of First Golf Course Architect.

My reason being that although prior to Allan other works by other individuals had been undertaken Allan appears to be the first to have recorded multiple projects. Also his work at Cupar, Carnoustie, Monifieth, Panmure & TOC were far more than a one off visit with much site time on each course overseeing the works and building of the early 9 Hole courses. A true (IMHO) golf course design architect.

[Sean_A]

Anthony

I was thrown off by the title as your article wasn't really about the first archie, but the first to be called an archie in written material.   

Out of curiosity, who did the Baily's article refer to?

Do you have a date for Colt's poster in which he calls himself the first archie?

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Anthony's article is based on a false premise. CBM never claimed he was the first golf architect. It would have been more useful to follow the evolution of the terminology - greens-maker, links-maker, green gardner, links architect, etc. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Is a Links Architect by definition a designer and builder of Greens, after all we are talking about links golf, are we not?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood wrote:

“If you re-read what CBM wrote I think he claimed to have been the first to coin the term golf architect; I'm pretty sure he knew he wasn't the first GA. Robertson maybe the first documented, but I'm sure there were others before him. I guess it depends on your definition of a golf architect.”


“Anthony's article is based on a false premise. CBM never claimed he was the first golf architect.”



If one only reads what Macdonald actually said (in Scotland’s Gift Golf), rather than assuming what he might have meant, they will see he did not write that he was the first golf architect or that he thought he was the first to coin the term golf architect, he only said “NGLA is the first example of golfing architecture I am aware of.”

I suppose anyone could interpret and claim, therefore, by extension he was claiming to be the first golf architect or the first to coin the term golf architect, but he did not actually say that. He also did not say he thought he was the first to coin the term golf architecture or golfing architecture; he only said he thought NGLA was the first example of golfing architecture he was aware of.

Anthony says he is looking for the first use of the term, and I believe I told him that would be a difficult investigation to do as one would pretty much just have to got back through everything ever written about the subject we think of generally today as golf architecture to try to determine when the term was first used, and by whom.


In addition:
In his book Macdonald also made an interesting distinction between the terms “architecturally built” and “laid out.”

It was from a letter CBM wrote to a Mr. Blackiston (a partner of Withy Steamship owner, Sir Frederick Lewis) during the development of Mid Ocean in Bermuda.

Macdonald wrote to Mr. Blackiston:

   “I may say here that championship golf courses are today architecturally built, not laid out. Previous to 1905, let us say, no one thought of building putting greens. All the great courses in the United Kingdom were natural---St Andrew’s, Prestwick, Machrehanish, Carnoustie, North Berwick, Sandwich, Hoylake and Westward-Ho. Today, both here and abroad, putting greens are usually constructed after some well-known green which has stood the test of the criticism for ages.”

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Sean:

Good call on the headline. It has been modified.

I'll check with Mr. Hurdzan to find out about that poster.

Reread the Baily's quote and you'll see it is referring to golf architects in general.

Anthony

[TEPaul]

Anthony Pioppi said on this thread:

"My goal was simply to find who was first called a golf course architect, not who was the golf course architect.  To me, they are entirely different topics.'


If that's true, and since Anthony wrote the article and began this thread, that should probably change the direction of this subject somewhat.

Again, as I believe I told Anthony when he was writing his article that kind of investigation would be very difficult since to do it properly one would virtually have to go through everything ever written about the subject we today call golf architecture (or a golf architect) to see what seems to be the first mention or reference to it.

Personally, I had assumed some time ago, that Colt may've been the first referred to that way, either by himself or others, but at that time I had not considered or carefully considered what Macdonald had said himself on this subject in his 1928 book, "Scotland's Gift Golf."

[Jim_Kennedy]

By 1911 the term was used quite frequently to describe the men, by name and occupation, who were building courses for money and subject to losing their amateur status, so the first person named as a GCA would be no later than that date.

[Tom MacWood]

Charles Blair Macdonald wrote that he was the first golf course architect but I decided to see if he really deserves the title.

"I do not think the term 'golf architect' can be found in golf records previous to 1901, the time I formulated the idea of copying the famous holes, sometimes not in their entirety; at times taking only some famous putting green or some famous bunker or some famous water hazard or other outstanding feature which might be adapted to particular ground over which one wanted to build a golf course. I believe this was the birth of golf architecture."

He is not saying he was the first golf architect. His ideal course would not be completed for almost a decade. He is saying his theories, expressed in 1901, were responsible for sparking modern golf architecture. I don't agree with him, but lets not misrepresent what he said.

[Melvyn Morrow]

CBM at time talks or writes a load of ballocks.  He seems total oblivious to works undertaken in Scotland, England and Ireland well prior to the 20th Century. But this is something I have said about much of the (2nd) Gold Age guys. They have forgotten what went on before in the first and real Golden Age.

I am not going to produce a list but I will just mention one well known course, that is TOC and the amount of work that went on from the 1860’s through to the turn of the century. New Greens built, Holes changes and the major engineering project to reclaim the land from the sea to create the !st & 18th Holes. That action allowed TOC to play in reverse. Other courses underwent different types of design and build that took between 6 and 12 months to build.

Why was this in-depth work not acknowledged by CBM when referring to architectural design?

Seems he either forgot or did not realise it existed, but then what was he doing between the 1870’s-1890’s, could he have been in the vanguard of Designers designing golf courses? No I believe that was not what he was doing.

This site loves the writing of these guys but are they really that accurate?

[Jim_Kennedy]

CBM at time talks or writes a load of ballocks.  He seems total oblivious to works undertaken in Scotland, England and Ireland well prior to the 20th Century. But this is something I have said about much of the (2nd) Gold Age guys. They have forgotten what went on before in the first and real Golden Age.

I am not going to produce a list but I will just mention one well known course, that is TOC and the amount of work that went on from the 1860’s through to the turn of the century. New Greens built, Holes changes and the major engineering project to reclaim the land from the sea to create the !st & 18th Holes. That action allowed TOC to play in reverse. Other courses underwent different types of design and build that took between 6 and 12 months to build.

Why was this in-depth work not acknowledged by CBM when referring to architectural design?


Seems he either forgot or did not realise it existed, but then what was he doing between the 1870’s-1890’s, could he have been in the vanguard of Designers designing golf courses? No I believe that was not what he was doing.

This site loves the writing of these guys but are they really that accurate?

MM,
That's a total misread of CBM. He didn't go to St Andrew's University in North Carolina and he didn't venture to Las Vegas in '06 to study the classic golf architecture.

As for the reclamation of land at TOC, I don't know if he ever mentioned it, but it would have leant support to his construcdtion plan for Lido.

[Tom MacWood]

I've read the article a few times, and I'm still not sure what it hopes to uncover:

a) the earliest use of the term golf architect
b) the first man to call himself or advertise himself as a golf architect
c) the person who is or was considered the first golf architect, even if that term may not have been used at the time
d) all the above

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

And he did not know what was going on in Golf pre 1900 from the sound of it either. The point I am making is what happened in the 1800's seems to escape many from the so called (2nd) Golden Age. Seems rather strange if you class yourself as part of that industry.

It also seems he learnt his trade by copying or template existing Holes - noting that these Holes were designed in the 1800's by Architects, Designers, or is that Design Architects?

As for Uni, never mentioned one.

[Tom MacWood]

Jim

And he did not know what was going on in Golf pre 1900 from the sound of it either. The point I am making is what happened in the 1800's seems to escape many from the so called (2nd) Golden Age. Seems rather strange if you class yourself as part of that industry.

It also seems he learnt his trade by copying or template existing Holes - noting that these Holes were designed in the 1800's by Architects, Designers, or is that Design Architects?

As for Uni, never mentioned one.

MM
You should probably read his book before commenting on what he knew or what he didn't know about golf pre-1900.

I think your idea of two golden ages is off the mark, and inconsistent with prevailing attitudes at the time. The 1890s may not have been the dark ages, but in comparison to what came after it was fairly rudimentary. There was general agreement among the experts of the time - Hutchinson, Darwin, Colt, Campbell, Simpson, Alison, Mackenzie, Macdonald, and others - that the 1890s was generally an era of formulaic architecture, especially inland architecture. And its not like they wouldn't have known, they lived through that era, unlike you and I.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim

And he did not know what was going on in Golf pre 1900 from the sound of it either. The point I am making is what happened in the 1800's seems to escape many from the so called (2nd) Golden Age. Seems rather strange if you class yourself as part of that industry.

It also seems he learnt his trade by copying or template existing Holes - noting that these Holes were designed in the 1800's by Architects, Designers, or is that Design Architects?

As for Uni, never mentioned one.

MM,
As Tom MacWood suggested, you ought to take the time to read CBM's book, in which he devotes the first two chapters (43 pages worth) to his early days at St. Andrews (where he was enrolled at the United Colleges of St. Salvador and St. Leornard's), including his reminiscenses of playing golf with and against your ancestors, the two Toms.  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom as far as I am concerned based upon the way the game matured and developed there was only one Golden Age. That was the mid to late 19Th Century.

Colt and his group did continue the development but it never matched the early period. If you think they did then why did so many of your Golden Age guys template the Holes of their predecessors.

The game was already established, they did not establish it. Courses were being designed, that developed before their time. Yes they continued with the development thanks to more money more land willingly used for golf. These guys had it easy when compared to the 18th Century guys who learnt as they went. Even the simplest of things like the Tin Cup, lawn mower had been utilised in the 19th Century even sowing grass seed. They did move earth around and many Greens were constructed within the Natural, but they were constructed nevertheless.

Golf really only had one Golden Age and that was from the mid to end of the 1800’s. You may well disagree but that’s your right. Tell me what did these guys do beyond designing course, ops yes write a few books, but that does not automatically create a Golden Age. 

As for CBM, he is an American icon but like Ross he did not shine over here having said that hey helped continue the work of the original Golden Age Guys. As for their books some I have read some I have not, but they do not inspire me as they do others, perhaps because I have a notion of what went on before their time.

As I said on another thread is you want to get into GCA get over to Scotland and learn from the local clubs, people, local archives and newspapers.

Jim

I have and I know about his days in St Andrews, but more importantly what did he do from the mid 1870's through to the mid 1890's re golf?

[Sam Morrow]

The answer is God.

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