Is the 5th Hole at Pine Valley...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

At dinner each night of the stroke play portion of the Crump they hand out hole by hole scoring of all the players.  My guess would be the club has the information and some players may have saved that info and could shine some light on it.

By the way Mike McCoy (4 time Crump Champ) that went 1-2-3.

That's beyond impressive.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Is it fair to say that more so than any other course, Pine Valley does not suffer fools?"

Michael and Jim:

I would agree with that.
I certainly do know whenever I've been there or talked with anyone from there and the subject of Pat Mucci comes up they sure do not suffer that fool!   

TE,

I've played with a significant number of Pine Valley members over the last few years, and you might be surprised at their perspective.

[Jim Franklin]

Pat

At dinner each night of the stroke play portion of the Crump they hand out hole by hole scoring of all the players.  My guess would be the club has the information and some players may have saved that info and could shine some light on it.

By the way Mike McCoy (4 time Crump Champ) that went 1-2-3.

I just saw Mike at the Bellerive member guest. I wish I had known this as I would have asked him. He is a really nice guy. He won his flight with some really solid competition (2 former tour players in his flight).

[TEPaul]

"Pat

At dinner each night of the stroke play portion of the Crump they hand out hole by hole scoring of all the players.  My guess would be the club has the information and some players may have saved that info and could shine some light on it.

By the way Mike McCoy (4 time Crump Champ) that went 1-2-3."



Chester:


They do? I don't remember that. Do you remember when they started doing that? That could be either pretty gratifying or pretty danged embarrassing. I hope they do keep those statistics down there as they may come in handy someday and somehow. And if they don't keep those stats they could always call you since you have a brain like a damned IBM machine!! Chester, have you ever seen a number that you DON'T intimately remember?  

By the way, speaking da numbers, who's won the Crump more than anyone? I assume it must be Sigel, right? If so would it be six or nine times or something like that?

Being the trivia genius you are on the Crump and all things to do with golf do you remember this odd one?

In my first round in my first year (maybe somewhere in the late '80s) in the Crump who do you suppose I drew? Jay Friggin' Sigel. Of course he beat the everliving piss outta me. I think it was 7&6. For some reason (which I learned later) as we walked back to the clubhouse he conceded the match to me!! Being the Rules maven I was even back then after my surprise I said to him; "Jay, under the Rules of Golf you cannot concede a match after it's over." He said; " Of course you can, you can concede a match anytime." I said: "No you can't, and not after you actually won it." He said: "Just watch me."

It got sort of controversial but I suppose out of respect for him they let him do it and next thing I know I have to go up against first round winner Gary Cowan (the Canadian who won two US Amateurs when they were at Stroke play (Merion and Wilmington) who beat the ever-living piss outta me too (5&4). I wonder how that stacks up in the golf history stats for the worst combined drubbing by a single player in two matches in the same filight in the same day? (12 down in 26 holes) I bet it might be a new World's record!!

Pat, when Cowan beat me on the 14th hole that was the first time I walked back to the clubhouse down the maintenance road below the RR tracks and you can see most of the course from there just fine so if you are still maintaining that George Arthur Crump couldn't have seen Pine Valley's land from the train and Tillinghast was being disingenuous or a liar, you are a disingenuous, semi-slimy, slippery schmuck, first, last and always!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE,

I think it's fair to say that after that drubbing you were hallucinating.

In fact I recall that afternoon.

I was in the clubhouse having a drink when someone came in and said that some deranged contestant was down by the tracks claiming that he just saw Crump and Tillinghast staring out the window at him from a passing train.

We all rushed out of the clubhouse down to the tracks only to find you sitting beside the tracks mumbling about how you were sitting in that very spot when you saw them staring out the window looking at the land that's  Pine Valley, and that they waved to you.

You were still in a daze and may not recall what I said to you.  I asked you,  "TE, were you sitting in this very spot when the train passed ?"
And you said, "Yes, this very spot.". Which is when I said, "well, I've got bad news for you, because you're sitting on the Northern bank of the tracks and they couldn't possibly see any part of Pine Valley since they were  looking North.".  I Remember that hurt, crushed look in your tear filled eyes when you said, "North ?  ?  ?".  And I said "yes, north".  Then you turned to me and said, " Can you do me a favor?". And I said, "yes"
Then you said, "Please don't let the facts ruin a good story".  So I said "OK", just to get you to stop sobbing.
Do you remember that part of the day ?

Do you also remember claiming that Crump was winking at you ?
Then someone told you that he had a twitch in his eye.

Do you remember telling everyone that since you had been bounced out of the tournament that you were going to camp out down by the tracks for the next few days so that you could wave to Crump and Tillinghast on their return trip ?

Do you remember me telling you to pitch your tent on the South side of the tracks?

Do you remember going into the bar shortly thereafter and ordering a tent full of Southsiders because you misunderstood my directions ?

I remember it all, quite vividly

[Mark Chaplin]

We were introduced to Mike McCoy at dinner last year as we were on the same table. One of my mates glanced up at the Crump Cup winners board and we quickly realised he was a very tidy player!

[TEPaul]

Pat:


Concerning your #54, I would have to say, what I really don't remember at all is ever seeing you at a Crump Cup. When were you either in or at the Crump Cup having a drink in the clubhouse?

But I will tell you an interesting story about that round and day with Gary Cowan (I hope I don't get in trouble somehow for this). We did walk down that maintenance round along the tracks from #14 to the clubhouse. I guess we had a drink and maybe dinner and seeing as I used to drive over there during the Crump, Cowan asked me if I would drop him in Wilmington on my way home because he was staying with Davis Sezna.

I knew Cowan from the London Hunt Invitational in London Ontario and had played with him there. I was always interested in how aggressive he was in his over-all course management and strategies. So I drove him to Wilmington but not long before that I had been at the USGA and looked at this 9-iron of Cowan's with which he hit one of the most famous shots in US Amateur history. It was at Wilmington CC and it was one of the US Amateurs that was at stroke play (matter of fact both of Cowan's US Amateur victories were at stroke play. The other was at Merion).

On the 18th (72nd hole) I think he needed a par to win or to tie. He had a 9 iron and he sunk it for an eagle. So I asked him what he was thinking when he hit that shot. He said it wasn't any different than any other 9-iron. He said he told himself---I've hit this thing 10,000 times on the range in Canada and that's all he was thinking before he hit it and it went in the hole.

So I told him I had just seen that famous 9 iron he used at Wilmington to hit that famous shot and that he donated to the USGA Museum.

Here's what he said:

"Are you kidding? Do you think I actually gave them THAT 9 iron? Hell no, I went up into the attic and gave them some old 9 iron I knew I would probably never use again."

True story------or do you think it sounds like I am being disingenuous?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:


Concerning your #54, I would have to say, what I really don't remember at all is ever seeing you at a Crump Cup. When were you either in or at the Crump Cup having a drink in the clubhouse?

But I will tell you an interesting story about that round and day with Gary Cowan (I hope I don't get in trouble somehow for this). We did walk down that maintenance round along the tracks from #14 to the clubhouse. I guess we had a drink and maybe dinner and seeing as I used to drive over there during the Crump, Cowan asked me if I would drop him in Wilmington on my way home because he was staying with Davis Sezna.

I knew Cowan from the London Hunt Invitational in London Ontario and had played with him there. I was always interested in how aggressive he was in his over-all course management and strategies. So I drove him to Wilmington but not long before that I had been at the USGA and looked at this 9-iron of Cowan's with which he hit one of the most famous shots in US Amateur history. It was at Wilmington CC and it was one of the US Amateurs that was at stroke play (matter of fact both of Cowan's US Amateur victories were at stroke play. The other was at Merion).

On the 18th (72nd hole) I think he needed a par to win or to tie. He had a 9 iron and he sunk it for an eagle. So I asked him what he was thinking when he hit that shot. He said it wasn't any different than any other 9-iron. He said he told himself---I've hit this thing 10,000 times on the range in Canada and that's all he was thinking before he hit it and it went in the hole.

So I told him I had just seen that famous 9 iron he used at Wilmington to hit that famous shot and that he donated to the USGA Museum.

Here's what he said:

"Are you kidding? Do you think I actually gave them THAT 9 iron? Hell no, I went up into the attic and gave them some old 9 iron I knew I would probably never use again."

True story------or do you think it sounds like I am being disingenuous?

Nope, it sounds like you just got someone in trouble and a lot of folks embarrassed

[archie_struthers]

 

As to the stroke averages per hole.  The short time I worked inside we always calculated the hardest holes relative to par for the field, not for individuals on a hole by hole basis. This being said the hardest holes tended to be #'s 1, 4, 5 and 13 almost every year . Whe the greens were super fast, two and three tended to move up the list.....particularly the year of Bator's revenge in 1981 ,that year three was the toughest (pin front right lol) ever to the best of mY knowledge.

[Chris Roselle]

As to the stroke averages per hole.  The short time I worked inside we always calculated the hardest holes relative to par for the field, not for individuals on a hole by hole basis. This being said the hardest holes tended to be #'s 1, 4, 5 and 13 almost every year . Whe the greens were super fast, two and three tended to move up the list.....particularly the year of Bator's revenge in 1981 ,that year three was the toughest (pin front right lol) ever to the best of mY knowledge.

Archie, for the 2012 GAP Open Championship you will be able to follow the scoring on-line like all of our events and a nice feature of our scoring is the course statistics section.  You'll be able to see the stroke averages for each hole in both Round 1 and 2 and the 36 hole combines.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

Is there a link to a website for the stats ?

[TEPaul]

"Nope, it sounds like you just got someone in trouble and a lot of folks embarrassed."



Pat:

Perhaps, but wouldn't you recommend the truth will out? Isn't it your philosophy that the truth should prevail no matter what?  Or is that just your philosophy with associations, clubs and things you have no stake in or friends in? 

You know, Pat, the beauty of this website, the Internet, or frankly the unencumbered freedom of America itself is that they all provide a platform for people like you to let all your political and particularly cultural biases show in as public a forum as possible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Nope, it sounds like you just got someone in trouble and a lot of folks embarrassed."

Perhaps, but wouldn't you recommend the truth will out?

That would depend upon the level of confidentiality agreed to.
If someone confided in you and asked that you not repeat the story and you agreed not to repeat it in exchange for the information, then, short of criminal activity, I think you have an obligation to preserve the confidentiality

Isn't it your philosophy that the truth should prevail no matter what? 

So when your wife asks you if she looks too heavy/thin in a certain outfit, you're going to let the truth prevail.

Or is that just your philosophy with associations, clubs and things you have no stake in or friends in? 

It's a judgement I make based upon the terms of confidentiality I agreed to, (other than for criminal activity.)
If someone said to me, that if I promise to keep something confidential, they'll reveal a secret to me, conditionally, and I give my word and agree to keep it a secret, I don't think that I'll be tellilng the world, especially vis a vis the internet, what was told to me under the condition that I was sworn to secrecy.

You know, Pat, the beauty of this website, the Internet, or frankly the unencumbered freedom of America itself is that they all provide a platform for people like you to let all your political and particularly cultural biases show in as public a forum as possible.


What you won't find from me, on this website or anywhere else, is me breaching my pledge to hold a confidence.
Can you say the same ?

As to "people like me", people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, or, alternatively, take a good look in the mirror.

David Moriarty, quoting your own words, has proved, that before you start lecturing and admonishing me about revealing the truth, that you should embark upon the same mission.  ie, take your own advice.

As to my "particularly cultural biases", my mother was Irish/English, my father Italian, my first wife Jewish and my current wife a mixture of French, Canadian and German, so, which "cultural biases" are you refering to ?

[TEPaul]

"That would depend upon the level of confidentiality agreed to.
If someone confided in you and asked that you not repeat the story and you agreed not to repeat it in exchange for the information, then, short of criminal activity, I think you have an obligation to preserve the confidentiality"



Pat:

That is a very nice point and I agree completely. Matter of fact, that is the very same point under which I operated with a number of clubs and their ACTUAL PRIVATE MATERIAL, that included Merion, Pine Valley, Shinnecock, The Creek, Piping Rock and Myopia amongst others.

But when on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com some accused me of hiding and failing to reveal material. They claimed I had some kind of moral obligation to them or to this site to actually put PHYSICAL PRIVATE CLUB MATERIAL on Golfclubatlas if and when I even discussed what I knew about the material. All the clubs I dealt with above understood I was mentioning what I knew about their material and were fine with it but our agreement was that I simply NOT put their ACTUAL PHYSICAL PRIVATE MATERIAL on the Internet without their specific permission but they were always fine with me discussing my opinion of it.  THAT was our confidentiality agreement and my obligation to it!

[Chris Roselle]

Chris,

Is there a link to a website for the stats ?

Our on-line scoring link for the event will be posted to our website the evening before hand and you would just need to go to www.gapgolf.org to find it the day of the event.