The greatness of Pine Valley's set of greens

[PGertner]

Will Lozier,

I am not the guy to comment on the differences between the two 8th greens. I left PV late in 1987....and I am sure someone more familiar with both greens will have better knowledge than my memory could. Thrilled TE Paul is back....Mr. Paul???  Archie??

Patrick Gertner
GC Supt
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[Patrick_Mucci]

How late in the match do you let people bail out on bets?

Depends on the opponent.

RAN ?  NEVER  

With the group I've been playing with for 45+ years, NEVER.
If you leave the course or concede the bets, you pay all ways.

But, with my friend, and other friends, within reason, whenever they want.

There's a special comraderie amongst golfing friends.
Being able to bust chops, tease and embarrass each other is far more important than the few dollars waged.
So bragging rights and holding the upper hand are paramount.

Not long ago I was invited to play for a few days, along with some other fellows, by a mutual friend, including a stay at his home.
Our host selected the teams the first day.
He and his partner played very well and more importantly, meshed better.
We lost the match and over drinks, he said, "time to collect"
I whipped out my wallet, took out the bills necessary to pay the bet, handed him the cash and said, "Here's my homing pigeon money"
He said, "what's homing pigeon money" ?
I said, "It's leaving me now, but, it will soon return"
We all laughed.
The next day, the teams were the same and we won the bet.
So, as we were having drinks afterward, I said, "what's that sound" ?
My host said, "What sound" ?
I said, "The sound of ten dollar bills flying back to me"
Again, we all laughed.

Sometimes you play for trophies, sometimes you play for money and most of the time you play for the pure competition and bragging rights.
It's a special game where you can compete and have fun at the same time.

Ran and I have had some really special matches and money has nothing to do with it.
One of my most bitter loses came at Sand Hills, when I was one down playing # 17.
Ran was getting far more shots than he deserved, 12, but, I couldn't stand his whining on the 1st tee any longer.
The previous day he had suckered Tom Huckaby into giving him far too many strokes, so on the day of our match, I gave him three bets, with 8, 10 and 12 shots.  I had already won the 8 and 10 shot match, but, my heart was set on the 12 shot match.  I wanted the Trifecta in the worst way.

You should know that Ran and I have had some classic battles and that we each love to needle the other, which you can't do when too much money is being bet.

We both hit the green on # 17, me about 20+ feet, Ran at 30+ feet.
He hits his putt so hard that it's rocketing left of the hole, when 10 feet from the hole it hits a large pebble, veers right, and goes in the hole at warp speed.  I couldn't believe it.  That putt would have gone 10 feet past the hole, or more.  I line up and hit a great putt that somehow rims out and stays out, and I lose 2&1.  Ran needed a par on # 18 to break 80, so that tells you how well he was playing.  Unfortunately, he hit his drive left on # 18 and didn't make par.  I was under par for the day and lost, all because of a pebble, a large pebble that deflected his wildly errant putt into the hole.  To this day, that still bothers me, while Ran revels in the "rub of the green".
When we get together, we kid each other about our respective fortunes that day.
It was a great match, amongst great friends, at a great venue.
Does it get better than that ?

So, when you ask, at what point will I let someone out of a bet, it depends upon the person and the circumstances.

Twice, a friend from Boston had set up a significant money match with a good golfer.
On both occassions, I had great rounds going and was under par through 13 and 15 holes, when the other golfer indicated that he was injured, couldn't continue, and left the golf course.  In my game, when you leave, no matter the reason, except a family emergency, you pay all ways, but, that didn't happen.  When my friend wanted to set up a third match, I declined and told him that it was a "no win" situation for me.
If he beat me, I'd pay, but, my experience was, if he was losing, he'd abort the match and decline paying.


You really are a pal.

Tim, we're really good friends, and being able to remind him of that episode at key points in future matches is far more important than the few dollars I would have won, but not collected.

Think I can get a bet down with you on the Kentucky Derby?

You can, but don't expect the same result off the golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

I thought you indicated that a flighted approach, hitting short of the green wouldn't bounce up on the green.

I find that to be a tremendous shortcoming in conditioning.

One I understand is primarily related to green irrigation, but, nonetheless, a negative in terms of playability.

Pine Valley is probably at its best in the fall as the summer there can be harsh, hot and humid, making firm and fast conditions difficult to achieve.  I think that's why you see the large greenside fans.

The uniqueness of the architecture creates a delicate balance in terms of maintainance.

It's easy to go over the top with too much speed and Mother Nature can have the opposite effect.

What I found neat is the contrast and similiarity in the play of # 12 and # 13 when the flag is back on # 12.
Both can require or prefer a run-up shot.
One short and the other very long.
It's an interesting contrast.

With F&F, # 1, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13, 15 and 16 can be less threatening by playing run-ups.
Without F&F, the approaches become more difficult, longer shots.

It's really a unique, great golf course/club, where golf and golf alone is KING

[TEPaul]

"He's been a superior player for quite some time.
TEPaul could attest to his game."



Pat:

Whose game?



(perhaps the shortest post I've ever made)

[Patrick_Mucci]

"He's been a superior player for quite some time.
TEPaul could attest to his game."



Pat:

Whose game?

Terry McBride



(perhaps the shortest post I've ever made)

Ditto

[TEPaul]

Pat:

It's a bit hard to remember now but I think I only played with Terry McBride once; in a practice round or maybe the first round of one of the first Coleman's at Seminole. I played with Mike McBride in other things a lot more (like some round in the Maidstone Bowl where everyone just played lights-out but I made something like seven birdies) and I played against the other brother (David?, not the doctor Mark) in something like the Lesley Cup in Canada or New York or maybe it was at Pine Valley.

To me Terry was an interesting case as he may've been one of the most physically talented golfers I ever saw but he was pretty undisciplined in how to use it. (I remember taking him to the airport after the Coleman and for some odd and unsolicited reason he went on and on about how he was attracted to distinctly ugly girls. After that I just wrote him up in my mind that "Terry is just Terry."

I told you some time ago about that shot he hit into the 8th green at Seminole. We are all still shaking our heads who saw it!! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

It's a bit hard to remember now but I think I only played with Terry McBride once; in a practice round or maybe the first round of one of the first Coleman's at Seminole. I played with Mike McBride in other things a lot more (like some round in the Maidstone Bowl where everyone just played lights-out but I made something like seven birdies) and I played against the other brother (David?, not the doctor Mark) in something like the Lesley Cup in Canada or New York or maybe it was at Pine Valley.

David is one of the cousins, Mike, Mark and Terry are brothers, withTerry having the most outstanding record, after their dad, Joe.

To me Terry was an interesting case as he may've been one of the most physically talented golfers I ever saw but he was pretty undisciplined in how to use it.

He has the simplest, most powerful swing of any amateur I know.
It has the fewest moving parts, just a simple rotation.
Probably the best amateur long iron player I know.
Freddy Couples, after playing with him said, "who is this guy and why haven't I heard of him ?"
He was very impressed withTerry's game as was Hale Irwin.

 (I remember taking him to the airport after the Coleman and for some odd and unsolicited reason he went on and on about how he was attracted to distinctly ugly girls.

Are you sure that wasn't another Terry ?

After that I just wrote him up in my mind that "Terry is just Terry."

I told you some time ago about that shot he hit into the 8th green at Seminole. We are all still shaking our heads who saw it!! 


That shot is legendary and indicative of his talent.
I've seen him hit quite a number of those shots.
If he could putt like Joe or Mike he would have been unbeatable.

I still don't know where he gets his power from

[Will Lozier]

Will Lozier,

When you play in as many U.S. Amateurs and Mid-Amateurs as he has, let us know.

Only Open Qualifiers - US & British.  I've always simply called my game decent...not superior.  

I made it past the local U.S. Open qualifier and his game was better than mine.
What Opens, US & British did you play in ?
He played on the golf team with Tom Watson, remained an amateur and has had a distinguished amateur career.
He's been a superior player for quite some time.
TEPaul could attest to his game.

As to your assessment of his short game,  if you had a degree of familiarity with the shots he faced, you wouldn't have made such a dumb comment.

Just tell me how many superior players would have made an 8 from where he was?  

More than you could imagine, especially in light of your lack of familiarity with that green, the steep slopes on all but the front side, it's surrounds and the tall thick rough at the bottom of the steep slopes.  Add to that, the firm and fast putting surfaces and it's easy to ruin your round on # 1 should you miss that green left, right or long.

I've seen and heard of some rather exceptional players who doubled, tripled and quaded that hole, without hitting really bad shots.

The first time I ever played PV, the flag was all the way back, and I hit a 6-iron to about 8 feet and birdied it.
Had I known what disaster lurked left, right and long, I never would have hit that 6-iron, and would have hit a 7 or 8-iron to the middle and taken my chances two putting.  It's rare when anyone misses that green that they par the hole, and if they miss it long, it'd be a rare bogey.
It's a treacherous hole that looks benign to the uninformed.

Qualifiers Patrick...I've not made it past US Open Local nor The Open Regional.  I played very poorly at Crumpin-Fox in 2000(?) and yet still signed my scorecard and, years later, much better at Alwoodley (2005) only to take a 10 on the 10th after playing my second into a position where I had no relief.  I made a huge mistake in not playing my 4th shot from the same position - taking stroke & distance.  This hole was MacKenzie's template for Augusta's 13th - a short pronounced dogleg par-5 with OOB and a ravine playing the role of the stream.  Still finished my round giving it my best to turn in a 39-50-89.  The front nine included two birdie lipouts, two birdie makes totalling 90 feet, and two doubles.  From 11 on, even with my best effort, my spirit was broken.

To not get too off-topic, I love Alwoodley's greens feeling they have great variety and challenge in their total makeup with the standouts being the half-bowl 3rd, the 4th benched into the hillside on which the 5th tee sits, and the 14th & 15th with their false fronts.  So many opportunities to use the firm turf with a few that require an aerial approach.  

[TEPaul]

"I still don't know where he gets his power from"


Pat:

I'm sure you don't, and that's because you have never known 1/10th what I know about both golf and golf course architecture! You're just a transparent "know-it-all" but I've known you for a dozen years or so now and about 50% of the intelligent stuff you say on here I recognize as something I taught you or told you in the last dozen years! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

While every one of Pine Valley's holes is eminently fair, a golfer, even a superior golfer can take a large number on any one of them, although I think certain holes, like # 5 and # 15 are more likely to produce doubles, triples and worse.

It's fairways are generous, but an errant shot, a loss of concentration or poor planning can result in a high, round ruining score.

Everyone's playing perspective is different.

I  was always very concerned with the tee shots on #'s 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 14 and 15.

Approach shots on # 's 1, 2, 8, 9, 13, 15 and 16.

Not that every shot didn't concern me, but these shots more than others got my undivided attention, for if I missed them, the potential for a big number came into play.

Big numbers on certain holes make up a lot of the legendary tales about PV

[Mike Nuzzo]

I've seen and heard of some rather exceptional players who doubled, tripled and quaded that hole, without hitting really bad shots.

Pat
Hitting it past the pin off the green was a bad shot, even if he hit it where he was aiming.
I don't believe one can make a triple or quad without hitting a bad shot.
Cheers

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

Agreed. During the round in which the pictures in this thread were taken, I played 12 holes in +6 and the other six in +14.

And the errors that led to those doubles and triples weren't enormous, perhaps most glaring was a failure to take my medicine immediately after those errors.

[TEPaul]

"I  was always very concerned with the tee shots on #'s 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 14 and 15.
Approach shots on # 's 1, 2, 8, 9, 13, 15 and 16."


I was always only concerned about the tee shots and approach shots on holes #1, #2, #4, #6, #7, #8, #9, #11, #12, #13, #15, #16, #17, #18.

Other than those holes the tee shots and approaches never concerned me that much except the tee shots on #3, #5, #10 and #14.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've seen and heard of some rather exceptional players who doubled, tripled and quaded that hole, without hitting really bad shots.

Pat
Hitting it past the pin off the green was a bad shot, even if he hit it where he was aiming.
I don't believe one can make a triple or quad without hitting a bad shot.

I've seen good shots result in disastrous scores.

Before they put the lip on the front of the 10th green, I've seen shots hit 4 feet from the hole back up, off the green, into the DA, resulting in a big number.

Same for # 2, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 15 and others.

Shots, slightly marginal can result in terrible scores.

My friend HIT the green and just barely rolled off and down the left slope.
Six to twelve INCHES to the right and he's got an easy par.
His recovery wasn't bad, just a wee bit strong, and the other shots due to very difficult lies in tall thick rough.

Anyone who's missed on the short side knows the challenges that situation presents, especially at PV

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I  was always very concerned with the tee shots on #'s 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 14 and 15.
Approach shots on # 's 1, 2, 8, 9, 13, 15 and 16."


I was always only concerned about the tee shots and approach shots on holes #1, #2, #4, #6, #7, #8, #9, #11, #12, #13, #15, #16, #17, #18.

Other than those holes the tee shots and approaches never concerned me that much except the tee shots on #3, #5, #10 and #14.
TE,

I was told that your main concern was finding your way to and from Pine Valley and that more often than not, you ended up in Valley Forge. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Many, many years ago, my dad advised me that if I got into trouble,  to play back to the fairway, take my medicine and settle for a bogey, rather than attempt the heroic shot and end up with a double, triple or worse.

At Pine Valley, more than anywhere else, I think that's sound advice.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat
In my opinion all of those barely near misses, were misses to the wrong target.
I consider aiming at the wrong target a bad shot.
I also think the wrong type of shot, like too much spin, is a bad shot if they wind up off the green.
Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat
In my opinion all of those barely near misses, were misses to the wrong target.
I consider aiming at the wrong target a bad shot.

But, you don't know where he was aiming

I also think the wrong type of shot, like too much spin, is a bad shot if they wind up off the green.

Mike,

Too much spin ?
Do you really think that amateurs can control, with a high degree of consistency, the degree of spin ?

If we could execute better, we wouldn't be playing with our friends, we'd be on the PGA TOUR

[Mark Chaplin]

Having missed #1 right and racked up a similar number isn't the sensible play to hit it short just aiming for the front edge of the green and taking the slopes out of play? It's not the toughest two putt par and certainly not double or worse territory.

[Jim Franklin]

Scott,

Can you describe the conditions on the ground...the course looks VERY green and I am curious as to how fast it played.  This would certainly affect how these wonderful green sites played in accordance with their design.  I.E., we're you able to play a running draw onto #13?

Thanks for posting these photos!

Cheers

Will - I was just there this weekend and the course was firm and fast. On #4, from the back tee (499) I hit driver to top of hill and then proceeded to hit 5 iron over the green. It bounced short by 20 yards and rolled to the back edge of a DEEP green. It was a blast. You can play a running draw on 13 as well. I hit my drive to the end of the fairway and was blocked by the trees so I had to hit a sweeping cut to reach ther green. Great hole.

[Dan Boerger]

Pat made a very good (best?) point in it's all about how the surroundings make the greens so wonderful. The context is so critical. While I'm on that topic I would also add that it was in a post of Pat's (a year or so back) that he reminded me the approach on 18 is usually from a slightly downhill lie. Ball a bit further back, shoulders parallel to the slope ... to this day I credit that advice with helping me to post my best round ever at PV.

[TEPaul]

"On #4, from the back tee (499) I hit driver to top of hill and then proceeded to hit 5 iron over the green. It bounced short by 20 yards and rolled to the back edge of a DEEP green."


Jim:

Actually that particular shot into #4 is probably the best barometer out there in determining just what the degree of firm and fast is on the golf course. The other approaches I paid special attention to were #1, #6, #13 and #16 although on the latter approach when I played that course I think there was a rough band that was a bit too close. Another hole that most don't realize how or how much you can bounce and roll it in if it's firm and fast is actually #18. But if you try to bounce and run it in from too far back on that approach roll you do have to keep it low though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Having missed #1 right and racked up a similar number isn't the sensible play to hit it short just aiming for the front edge of the green and taking the slopes out of play? It's not the toughest two putt par and certainly not double or worse territory.

Mark,

Everyone plays the hole great....... In their mind

Hit it short and routine two putt.

Only problems,
1.  It's a long and difficult two putt.
2.  You can plan to hit it short, but a mis-hit will result in a likely bogey
3.   Golfers have a set image or opinion of their games and I can't imagine a golfer
       Hitting short on all of the dicey holes and deliberately accepting scores higher
       Than par, it's counter to the golfer's ego.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat made a very good (best?) point in it's all about how the surroundings make the greens so wonderful. The context is so critical. While I'm on that topic I would also add that it was in a post of Pat's (a year or so back) that he reminded me the approach on 18 is usually from a slightly downhill lie. Ball a bit further back, shoulders parallel to the slope ... to this day I credit that advice with helping me to post my best round ever at PV.

Dan,

Glad I was able to help.

Will my consulting (caddy) fee be forwarded to me shortly ? 

[Brett_Morrissy]

Scott,
Thanks for an interesting topic and great pics again.

What is the turf type on the greens and the surrounds, apart from the thick rough?

Are there green design elements that are "missing" ?

On the greens that are blocked at the front, are there any holes with room to play long and then back to a tough pin?

What are some of the general front to back and widths measurements?

I am also interested in Dave's comment about the greens with contour and greens with slope combo, and how well they combine with surrounding slopes and contours...

Thanks again.