The greatness of Pine Valley's set of greens

[Scott Warren]

The more great golf courses I have the good fortune to play, the more I realise how unique Pine Valley's set of greens is.

Not necessarily better than all comers -- though better than most -- but unrivalled, perhaps, in the variety they present:

Open fronts and blocked fronts in near equal measure, as well as some that are open only if you have been brave off the tee or can shape your approach correctly.

Downhill, flat and uphill approaches in balance, and paired with a great variety of approach lengths (in determining that, I assume a well executed frive by what I feel is a "typical" single-figure handicap amateur, playing from the members' tees).

Greensites that vary greatly in drama and shot requirement, with the internal slopes and contours not following any particular formula (ie. bold site = subtle contour, subtle site = bold contour etc).

Variety in defences, from the bunkerless 1st to the water and sand-guarded 14th.

A mixture of slope and contour in the putting surfaces.

I don't want to pontificate too much on why I think each is great individually or why the set is so fine as a group, but I would certainly invite those who know the course -- be it one Crump Cup visit or a lifetime of knowledge -- to chime in with your thoughts on what makes these greens one of the greatest sets in the game.

1st - open front - flat, mid-length to long approach (depending on tee shot bravery) - subtle slope


2nd - blocked front - uphill, short approach - bold contour/slope


3rd - blocked front, but depth allows running approach to back pins - downhill, long approach - moderate contour


4th - open front - downhill, long approach - moderate slope


5th - open front after significant carry - slightly uphill, long approach - bold slope


6th - open front - flat, short to mid-length approach (depending on tee shot bravery) - bold countour


7th - blocked front - flat, short to mid-length approach - subtle contour


8th - blocked front - downhill or flat, short approach to a tiny, raised target - bold contour


9th - open front - flat or uphill (depending on green in use) approach - moderate slope/contour


10th - blocked front - flat, short approach to raised target - moderate contour


11th - open front - downhill or flat, short to mid-length approach -  moderate slope/contour


12th - open front if drive is long enough - flat, short approach - subtle contour


13th - blocked front, but open side for a slinging draw - flat, long approach - moderate slope/contour


14th - blocked front (first green blocked by water) - downhill, long approach - subtle slope


15th - open front - uphill mid-length to long approach - moderate to bold slope/contour


16th - open front - downhill mid-length to short approach (depending on tee shot bravery) - moderate to bold slope/contour


17th - blocked front - uphill, short approach - subtle contour


18th - blocked front (only second green blocked by water) - flat or uphill, long approach - moderate contour/slope

[David_Elvins]

Great post Scott,

I love courses that blend greens with contour with greens that slope. 

[Scott Warren]

Have added that to the list of qualities at the top of the OP, David. Well noted -- that is a definite strength of the greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

While the putting surfaces are interesting to unique, I think it's their surroundings which set the tone and contribute the high degree of quality.

# 1 green could be described as a bland green in terms of contour/slope, but, it's placement atop that elevated, narrowing triangle is simply brilliant.

There are thousands of more pronounced, more interesting putting surfaces.
But, locating that putting surface on that elevated, uniquely configured landform, brilliantly married the two features to form a special green and surrounds, one that lures the unwary golfer to an early scoring grave.

On one of my recent trips to PV, a member of my foursome, a superior golfer, suggested, that in addition to our better ball match that he and I should have a medal bet.   I agreed.  The flag was left of middle, slightly back.  We both hit great drives.
I hit a mid-iron about 12 feet right of the flag.  He hit a great short iron, right at the flag, but slightly left and slightly long.
It hit on the green then rolled down to the left.  He then pitched up, a little strong, and the ball rolled across the green, down the right slope into the tall rough.  His recovery from there almost made it to the top of the slope, hitting about a foot short and rolling back down into the tall rough again.
His 5th shot did the same.  His 6th shot found the green,  two putts later he was in for a quad, 8.
I made my birdie putt.
As we were walking to the second tee, he turned to me and said, let's cancel our medal bet.
Since he's such a good friend, I said, with a smile, "why".  He said, because he had just wrecked his round on the first hole.
I said, "OK".

Here is a relatively benign green, yet, when combined with the unique setting it presents a brilliant and daunting challenge, especially to the unwary.

My friend's round was far from the first and will be far from the last round at Pine Valley that was decimated on the first hole, albeit by one of the most benign putting surfaces you could encounter.

The genius or one aspect of the genius of PV is the blending of the putting surfaces with the surrounds.

Did anyone notice on holes # 5,  # 14 and # 15  if there was a "minimum standard" carry required from the tee, or had George Crump and Colt already heard of Will Lozier's "putting on the walking path" strategy when they crafted those holes ?

Come to think of it, isn't there a "minimum standard" carry off the tee on every hole at PV ?

[Rich Goodale]

I always thought Pine Valley was something special, not just the love child of Swinley Forest and Tallamore (sans Llamas).  Why is this course more interesting (or even better) than say Tour 18?

[Tim Martin]

Scott,

While the putting surfaces are interesting to unique, I think it's their surroundings which set the tone and contribute the high degree of quality.

# 1 green could be described as a bland green in terms of contour/slope, but, it's placement atop that elevated, narrowing triangle is simply brilliant.

There are thousands of more pronounced, more interesting putting surfaces.
But, locating that putting surface on that elevated, uniquely configured landform, brilliantly married the two features to form a special green and surrounds, one that lures the unwary golfer to an early scoring grave.

On one of my recent trips to PV, a member of my foursome, a superior golfer, suggested, that in addition to our better ball match that he and I should have a medal bet.   I agreed.  The flag was left of middle, slightly back.  We both hit great drives.
I hit a mid-iron about 12 feet right of the flag.  He hit a great short iron, right at the flag, but slightly left and slightly long.
It hit on the green then rolled down to the left.  He then pitched up, a little strong, and the ball rolled across the green, down the right slope into the tall rough.  His recovery from there almost made it to the top of the slope, hitting about a foot short and rolling back down into the tall rough again.
His 5th shot did the same.  His 6th shot found the green,  two putts later he was in for a quad, 8.
I made my birdie putt.
As we were walking to the second tee, he turned to me and said, let's cancel our medal bet.
Since he's such a good friend, I said, with a smile, "why".  He said, because he had just wrecked his round on the first hole.
I said, "OK".

Here is a relatively benign green, yet, when combined with the unique setting it presents a brilliant and daunting challenge, especially to the unwary.

My friend's round was far from the first and will be far from the last round at Pine Valley that was decimated on the first hole, albeit by one of the most benign putting surfaces you could encounter.

The genius or one aspect of the genius of PV is the blending of the putting surfaces with the surrounds.

Did anyone notice on holes # 5,  # 14 and # 15  if there was a "minimum standard" carry required from the tee, or had George Crump and Colt already heard of Will Lozier's "putting on the walking path" strategy when they crafted those holes ?

Come to think of it, isn't there a "minimum standard" carry off the tee on every hole at PV ?

Wouldn`t a superior player tough it out after the quad on 1 instead of looking to renege on the bet?  That is an odd story.

[Lance Rieber]

Bear in mind I have never been there,  just seen pictures, but the course looks way less dramatic than I thought it would be. The greens  look really good but the surrounds are way more tame than I thought. #4 bunker in the left center of the pic looks out of place as does the bunkers  to the right on 11. Is this just because I  am not seeing the sides of he holes. I expected to see more like the pic of #2, the scruffy less kept up Pine Valley I have in my Golf Club Atlas Book. Great thread Scott. I have never obviously seen some of these angles.  The greens do ha e a great amount of variety.
Lance

[Mark McKeever]

Scott,

The place looked packed!

Mark

[Will Lozier]

Scott,

While the putting surfaces are interesting to unique, I think it's their surroundings which set the tone and contribute the high degree of quality.

# 1 green could be described as a bland green in terms of contour/slope, but, it's placement atop that elevated, narrowing triangle is simply brilliant.

There are thousands of more pronounced, more interesting putting surfaces.
But, locating that putting surface on that elevated, uniquely configured landform, brilliantly married the two features to form a special green and surrounds, one that lures the unwary golfer to an early scoring grave.

On one of my recent trips to PV, a member of my foursome, a superior golfer, suggested, that in addition to our better ball match that he and I should have a medal bet.   I agreed.  The flag was left of middle, slightly back.  We both hit great drives.
I hit a mid-iron about 12 feet right of the flag.  He hit a great short iron, right at the flag, but slightly left and slightly long.
It hit on the green then rolled down to the left.  He then pitched up, a little strong, and the ball rolled across the green, down the right slope into the tall rough.  His recovery from there almost made it to the top of the slope, hitting about a foot short and rolling back down into the tall rough again.
His 5th shot did the same.  His 6th shot found the green,  two putts later he was in for a quad, 8.
I made my birdie putt.
As we were walking to the second tee, he turned to me and said, let's cancel our medal bet.
Since he's such a good friend, I said, with a smile, "why".  He said, because he had just wrecked his round on the first hole.
I said, "OK".

Here is a relatively benign green, yet, when combined with the unique setting it presents a brilliant and daunting challenge, especially to the unwary.

My friend's round was far from the first and will be far from the last round at Pine Valley that was decimated on the first hole, albeit by one of the most benign putting surfaces you could encounter.

The genius or one aspect of the genius of PV is the blending of the putting surfaces with the surrounds.

He definitely sounds like a superior player...with a superior short game...and a superior attitude!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Martin,

We're great friends and have a terrific relationship.

No money was going to change hands at the end of the round so what difference did it make.
I don't want his money and he doesn't want mine, we just have a special rivalry.
His canceling the bet was equivalent to conceding the match to me.

Will Lozier,

When you play in as many U.S. Amateurs and Mid-Amateurs as he has, let us know.

As to your assessment of his short game,  if you had a degree of familiarity with the shots he faced, you wouldn't have made such a dumb comment.

[Stephen Davis]

What a fantastic walk through! As someone who has not had the priviledge of playing at Pine Valley, this is one of the best compilations of the green complexes and approach shots that I have seen. It must have been a treat to play, especially on such a beautiful day. I agree that the setting along with the variety is what makes Pine Valley so special!

[Will Lozier]

Will Lozier,

When you play in as many U.S. Amateurs and Mid-Amateurs as he has, let us know.

Only Open Qualifiers - US & British.  I've always simply called my game decent...not superior.  

As to your assessment of his short game,  if you had a degree of familiarity with the shots he faced, you wouldn't have made such a smart comment.

Just tell me how many superior players would have made an 8 from where he was?  

[Tim Martin]

Will Lozier,

When you play in as many U.S. Amateurs and Mid-Amateurs as he has, let us know.

Only Open Qualifiers - US & British.  I've always simply called my game decent...not superior.  

As to your assessment of his short game,  if you had a degree of familiarity with the shots he faced, you wouldn't have made such a smart comment.

Just tell me how many superior players would have made an 8 from where he was?  

How late in the match do you let people bail out on bets? You really are a pal. Think I can get a bet down with you on the Kentucky Derby?

[Brad Isaacs]

Tim Martin,

We're great friends and have a terrific relationship.

No money was going to change hands at the end of the round so what difference did it make.
I don't want his money and he doesn't want mine, we just have a special rivalry.
His canceling the bet was equivalent to conceding the match to me.

Will Lozier,

When you play in as many U.S. Amateurs and Mid-Amateurs as he has, let us know.


Pat,

I played with a friend who had the same experience on the first hole. God help you if you miss the first green long or either side. Great hole. Got to hit the approach shots on this course.

Brad

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

To first sentence of your reply, I'm referring to the green complexes as a whole, not just the putting surfaces.

[Will Lozier]

Scott,

Can you describe the conditions on the ground...the course looks VERY green and I am curious as to how fast it played.  This would certainly affect how these wonderful green sites played in accordance with their design.  I.E., were you able to play a running draw onto #13?

Thanks for posting these photos!

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

For anyone in the know, is the second green on #8 supposed to present a nearly (virtually) identical version to the first excepting angle of approach (which in and of itself would make for variety between the two.  And, when was the second green built?  I believe the one on the left is the original, no?

Cheers

[Scott Warren]

Will,

These pics date from early October 2010 when I first visited.

The grass is certainly bright green, but beneath that the fairways and approaches were reasonably firm. The greens were definitely firm and I recall a playing partner landing his ball just short of the front on the 3rd and chasing it all the way to the back left pin position we had.

At the 1st I had a 5i that I landed short and ran up to the front edge. 13 I tried to hit that running draw you mention but fanned it right and straight.

There was certainly the opportunity to play a bouncing/running approach into the open-fronted greens, but you had to make a deliberate play to do so -- a flighted approach that landed short wouldn't bounce up (which is how I like it).

Re the 8th greens, the second was built, I was told, to share the wear due to the tiny size of the original left-hand green. And yeah, it is almost identical to its sibling aside from approach angle. The 9th also has two greens, of which I understand the right-hand is the original. I'm not sure of the reason for two greens there -- they are both much larger than the 8th greens.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

These pics date from early October 2010 when I first visited.

The grass is certainly bright green, but beneath that the fairways and approaches were reasonably firm. The greens were definitely firm and I recall a playing partner landing his ball just short of the front on the 3rd and chasing it all the way to the back left pin position we had.

At the 1st I had a 5i that I landed short and ran up to the front edge. 13 I tried to hit that running draw you mention but fanned it right and straight.

There was certainly the opportunity to play a bouncing/running approach into the open-fronted greens, but you had to make a deliberate play to do so -- a flighted approach that landed short wouldn't bounce up (which is how I like it).

Re the 8th greens, the second was built, I was told, to share the wear due to the tiny size of the original left-hand green. And yeah, it is almost identical to its sibling aside from approach angle. The 9th also has two greens, of which I understand the right-hand is the original. I'm not sure of the reason for two greens there -- they are both much larger than the 8th greens.

Thanks Scott!  Great info...exactly what I wanted to know.

Cheers

[PGertner]

The second green on 8 was built in 1987 by Tom Fazio's Andy Banfield and my PV grounds staff.

Greens were not supposed to be identical, and are not.

Patrick Gertner
GC Supt
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI

[Will Lozier]

The second green on 8 was built in 1987 by Tom Fazio's Andy Banfield and my PV grounds staff.

Greens were not supposed to be identical, and are not.

Patrick Gertner
GC Supt
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI

Thanks Patrick.  Can you explain the differences in greensites?

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

These pics date from early October 2010 when I first visited.

The grass is certainly bright green, but beneath that the fairways and approaches were reasonably firm. The greens were definitely firm and I recall a playing partner landing his ball just short of the front on the 3rd and chasing it all the way to the back left pin position we had.

At the 1st I had a 5i that I landed short and ran up to the front edge. 13 I tried to hit that running draw you mention but fanned it right and straight.

There was certainly the opportunity to play a bouncing/running approach into the open-fronted greens, but you had to make a deliberate play to do so -- a flighted approach that landed short wouldn't bounce up (which is how I like it).

Scott,

I don't understand that.
Why have the rest of the course play F&F and have the approaches soft ?

Re the 8th greens, the second was built, I was told, to share the wear due to the tiny size of the original left-hand green.
And yeah, it is almost identical to its sibling aside from approach angle.

The 9th also has two greens, of which I understand the right-hand is the original. I'm not sure of the reason for two greens there -- they are both much larger than the 8th greens.

The left hand green on both # 8 and # 9 are the original greens.

The left 8th green is 2,977, the right 2,685.
The left 9th green is 6,316, the right 6,379.

[TEPaul]

Scott:

I agree with you that those Pine Valley greens (all 20 of them) are in the top 3-5 sets for variety and excellence in the world.

If you're interested I'd be willing to tell you the architecturural and agronomic history of most every one of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will Lozier,

When you play in as many U.S. Amateurs and Mid-Amateurs as he has, let us know.

Only Open Qualifiers - US & British.  I've always simply called my game decent...not superior.  

I made it past the local U.S. Open qualifier and his game was better than mine.
What Opens, US & British did you play in ?
He played on the golf team with Tom Watson, remained an amateur and has had a distinguished amateur career.
He's been a superior player for quite some time.
TEPaul could attest to his game.

As to your assessment of his short game,  if you had a degree of familiarity with the shots he faced, you wouldn't have made such a dumb comment.

Just tell me how many superior players would have made an 8 from where he was?  

More than you could imagine, especially in light of your lack of familiarity with that green, the steep slopes on all but the front side, it's surrounds and the tall thick rough at the bottom of the steep slopes.  Add to that, the firm and fast putting surfaces and it's easy to ruin your round on # 1 should you miss that green left, right or long.

I've seen and heard of some rather exceptional players who doubled, tripled and quaded that hole, without hitting really bad shots.

The first time I ever played PV, the flag was all the way back, and I hit a 6-iron to about 8 feet and birdied it.
Had I known what disaster lurked left, right and long, I never would have hit that 6-iron, and would have hit a 7 or 8-iron to the middle and taken my chances two putting.  It's rare when anyone misses that green that they par the hole, and if they miss it long, it'd be a rare bogey.
It's a treacherous hole that looks benign to the uninformed.

[Scott Warren]

TEPaul,

I'd love to hear about that architectural history, and I am sure others would as well.

Patrick,

If you re-read my post you'll see I didn't refer to any part of the golf course being "soft". It wasn't. However, the course was not so firm that -- as you often see on links courses in GB&I -- a weak aerial approach lands short and still trundles onto the green.

The point I made above was that I found the course to be firm enough to allow/encourage the ground game when it was appropriate to play such a shot, but not so hard and fast that a substandard aerial approach got that helpful bounce onto the green.

That conditioning is ideal for the architecture of the course, IMO.