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Dan King

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Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« on: June 03, 2012, 01:33:07 PM »
In another overly long thread about carts Ben Sims came up with a wonderful analogy to cartball.  

Our National Parks have some wonderful hiking trails. As a lad I spent a fair amount of time hiking all over Yosemite National Park. Often times the farther you hike, the bigger the reward with wonderful vistas and the added benefit of taking the hiker away from civilization.

There are numerous people who because of various disabilities will never get to go to these places. However, they could if the National Parks allowed them to be transported to these places via all-terrain vehicles (ATVs).

But if you open up the hiking trails to ATVs, you will not just have the disabled use the ATVs. People who just want to see the views but don't want to hike will also use the ATVs. More than likely the trails will get choked with ATVs. The people who enjoyed the hike will get pushed out by people whose objective is to just get to the location. With ATVs ripping up trails designed to be hiked, the National Parks will discover it is important to pave certain parts of the trail, change some of the trails to make them more ATV friendly, and put up barriers to keep people driving their ATVs off cliffs. The trail will change, the hikers will be pushed out, but at least vistas will be opened up not just to the disabled, but also the lazy.

It will also become more difficult to get away from civilization. But not to worry hikers, you can still go hike in the Swiss Alps if you want to get away from ATVs.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Ye see, tha' man got to be famous heer for his walkin'. Twas said tha' if ye played along wi' him for very long ye'd get the spirit o' it yersel' and learn to enjoy each and every step. 'Twas said tha' he sometimes forgot his shots, the walkin' got to be so good. Had to be reminded by his caddie to hit the ball.
 --Shivas Irons
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 02:55:48 PM by Dan King »

Steve Burrows

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Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2012, 02:12:28 PM »
During my one and only visit to Yosemite, I recall hiking up Four Mile Trail to Glacier Point and being almost offended by the scores of people who exerted no effort taking the bus up from the valley (I have since softened my attitude on the subject).  Granted this particular trail is immediately adjacent to the valley, but I still didn't think that these people had nobly gained the summit.  The same might go for Pikes Peak in Colorado - with either a car or train ride to the top - where otherwise very few people would ever go.  

But where does it stop?  The great paradox of the National Park Service has always been to figure out how to allow people in without destroying the resource, but with your rationale, taken to its logical conclusion, cars and busses would be removed from the roads, and then the road itself would have to be removed, then pedestrians would be barred.  Recall further that the first documented siting of the Yosemite Valley by white explorers in the 1830s were from the rim walls; the travelers simply couldn't negotiate their way down to the valley.  Should we have just left it there, never opening it up to visitors who were not physically capable of repelling down rock walls or hiking through native forest and undergrowth?  Indeed, I would assume that your visits to Yosemite were by way of automobile on a paved road (which is akin to a golf cart on a path), not on a horse like the "purists" of days gone by, or the walkers before them.  In many ways, then, we are all "cartballers."
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 02:27:57 PM by Steve Burrows »
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2012, 02:42:40 PM »
I don't think anyone is talking about a return to hunting and gathering. The analogy was comparing the activity of hiking to the activity of golfing. Most of us drive to the golf course just as we often drive to national parks. It is a heck of a stretch to bring up activity we do prior to our chosen hobby and try to apply that to the hobby.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time. 
 --Steven Wright


Ben Sims

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Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 03:27:19 PM »
Dan,

Not bad.  Great use of my analogy.  Though you almost pulled a Bush 43 and paddled it right off a waterfall.   ;D

The way in which I think the analogy fails as an overarching generalization is twofold.

1) The hiking trails in our Nat'l Parks make up a small percentage of the total number of hiking trails in the country.  Many public and private trails have already been opened up to mountain bike, horse and even ATV use.  The number of trails that have remained truly "hiking only" are becoming rarer and rarer.  I think that is analogous to a relatively small number of courses that are walking only or are strongly walking encouraged.  Yosemite is Cypress, Glacier is NGLA, Olympic is Bandon, Acadia is Myopia.  That's how I look at Nat'l Parks.  They are the truly special ones.

2)  Backpacking/hiking is about the journey.  It is popularly defined that way by the vast majority of people that engage in that activity.  I wonder what percentage of people engaging in golf would define it as a journey, a walk.  Not many I predict.  Is this a sad reality?  Yes it is.  It has become a score obsessed game with the focus being only the act of swinging the club.  Now that may not be your definition, but I would argue that it is--for better or worse--the popular definition.    

The market has spoken.  However, the Nat'l Parks still keep their trails relatively free of outside action other than hiking.  And scores of clubs and many public places identify with walkers.  Again, as I said yesterday, the freedom of choice in golf is pretty cool right now.  

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2012, 03:42:21 PM »
Ben Sims writes:
The hiking trails in our Nat'l Parks make up a small percentage of the total number of hiking trails in the country.  Many public and private trails have already been opened up to mountain bike, horse and even ATV use.  The number of trails that have remained truly "hiking only" are becoming rarer and rarer.

As a hiker, would you call this a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

Backpacking/hiking is about the journey.  It is popularly defined that way by the vast majority of people that engage in that activity.  I wonder what percentage of people engaging in golf would define it as a journey, a walk.

From all I've read, most people in the past saw a golf round as  a journey. Carts have changed the game contributing to the score obsession. When all hiking trails have to share the road with ATV, won't most people also change their attitude toward the trail, and just see it as a way to get from point A to point B and not as a journey?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
When you have worn out your shoes, the strength of the shoe leather has passed into the fiber of your body.  I measure your health by the number of shoes and hats and clothes you have worn out. 
 --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Ben Sims

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Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2012, 03:55:12 PM »
From all I've read, most people in the past saw a golf round as  a journey. Carts have changed the game contributing to the score obsession. When all hiking trails have to share the road with ATV, won't most people also change their attitude toward the trail, and just see it as a way to get from point A to point B and not as a journey?

I call it neutral at this point.  I just don't see discrimination against walking golfers any more than I see discrimination against cart golfers.  Funny thing is, defining someone as one or the other seems like a trap to me.  Like everything, it's just not black and white.

To answer your question above, all the more reason to protect places like Bandon and Yosemite.  I'm sorry, but whatever my views are, I'm just not willing to try and reverse popular opinion.  I think the Carly Rae Jepson's and Justin Bieber's of the world are anathema to music.  But I can't just ignore them and pine for the days when the Rolling Stones ruled the airwaves.  I can only try and protect the special things while understanding the existence of the pop-culture. 

It's never going away, ever.  It is what it is at this point.  That is the true message I wish to send to Melvyn, yourself, and others.  Focus effort in a direction of preserving the places like Bandon in the face of evolution.  Not of railing against the machine with a wistful eye to ancestry.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2012, 06:09:51 PM »
Ben Sims writes:
The hiking trails in our Nat'l Parks make up a small percentage of the total number of hiking trails in the country.  Many public and private trails have already been opened up to mountain bike, horse and even ATV use.  The number of trails that have remained truly "hiking only" are becoming rarer and rarer.

As a hiker, would you call this a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

Backpacking/hiking is about the journey.  It is popularly defined that way by the vast majority of people that engage in that activity.  I wonder what percentage of people engaging in golf would define it as a journey, a walk.

From all I've read, most people in the past saw a golf round as  a journey. Carts have changed the game contributing to the score obsession. When all hiking trails have to share the road with ATV, won't most people also change their attitude toward the trail, and just see it as a way to get from point A to point B and not as a journey?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
When you have worn out your shoes, the strength of the shoe leather has passed into the fiber of your body.  I measure your health by the number of shoes and hats and clothes you have worn out.  
 --Ralph Waldo Emerson


Just wondering how carts contribute to the obsession with score.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 06:31:47 PM »
Ben Sims writes:
The hiking trails in our Nat'l Parks make up a small percentage of the total number of hiking trails in the country.  Many public and private trails have already been opened up to mountain bike, horse and even ATV use.  The number of trails that have remained truly "hiking only" are becoming rarer and rarer.

As a hiker, would you call this a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

Backpacking/hiking is about the journey.  It is popularly defined that way by the vast majority of people that engage in that activity.  I wonder what percentage of people engaging in golf would define it as a journey, a walk.

From all I've read, most people in the past saw a golf round as  a journey. Carts have changed the game contributing to the score obsession. When all hiking trails have to share the road with ATV, won't most people also change their attitude toward the trail, and just see it as a way to get from point A to point B and not as a journey?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
When you have worn out your shoes, the strength of the shoe leather has passed into the fiber of your body.  I measure your health by the number of shoes and hats and clothes you have worn out.  
 --Ralph Waldo Emerson


Just wondering how carts contribute to the obsession with score.

Because on GCA.com, carts are bad and ipso facto all other bad flows from the love of carts.  Obsession with score is bad and therefore caused by the love of carts.  Duh...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2012, 06:34:04 PM »
Ben Sims writes:
The hiking trails in our Nat'l Parks make up a small percentage of the total number of hiking trails in the country.  Many public and private trails have already been opened up to mountain bike, horse and even ATV use.  The number of trails that have remained truly "hiking only" are becoming rarer and rarer.

As a hiker, would you call this a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

Backpacking/hiking is about the journey.  It is popularly defined that way by the vast majority of people that engage in that activity.  I wonder what percentage of people engaging in golf would define it as a journey, a walk.

From all I've read, most people in the past saw a golf round as  a journey. Carts have changed the game contributing to the score obsession. When all hiking trails have to share the road with ATV, won't most people also change their attitude toward the trail, and just see it as a way to get from point A to point B and not as a journey?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
When you have worn out your shoes, the strength of the shoe leather has passed into the fiber of your body.  I measure your health by the number of shoes and hats and clothes you have worn out.  
 --Ralph Waldo Emerson


Just wondering how carts contribute to the obsession with score.

Because on GCA.com, carts are bad and ipso facto all other bad flows from the love of carts.  Obsession with score is bad and therefore caused by the love of carts.  Duh...
A.G. - That`s what I thought. ;)

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2012, 06:41:29 PM »
The cognoscenti of music think the Stones, Zepplin, etc are as much of an abomination as GCA.com does carts and Tom Fazio.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2012, 06:43:33 PM »
Tim Martin writes:
Just wondering how carts contribute to the obsession with score.

Golf on foot is a journey. The golfer is more likely to take in the entire course and its surrounding on foot. People in cart seem more intent on seeing the course as a collection of holes, each separated in its own box.

A bit of a stretch, but not unstretchable.

I probably shouldn't have included that, but it is easy to lump all evils of golf together into a bunch.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it. There's a human scale that flying cannot offer.
 --Lorne Rubenstein

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2012, 07:21:33 PM »
A.G._Crockett writes:
Because on GCA.com, carts are bad and ipso facto all other bad flows from the love of carts.  Obsession with score is bad and therefore caused by the love of carts.  Duh...

That might be true on GCA.com of the past. But with the current membership, there seems to be a majority that love carts and card and pencils.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
As a single footstep will not make a path on the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives.
 --Henry David Thoreau

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2012, 07:28:41 PM »
ATV riders pay taxes too, why should walkers take priority on government owned trails? 

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2012, 07:30:29 PM »
Dan,

Let's not be tone deaf here. This site is riddled with men of your ilk. The one-percenters of golf: Those who pose as the hair-shirt strolling only crowd.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 07:37:48 PM »
Mark Pritchett writes:
ATV riders pay taxes too, why should walkers take priority on government owned trails? 

Because they will destroy the trails.

Terry Lavin writes:
Let's not be tone deaf here. This site is riddled with men of your ilk. The one-percenters of golf: Those who pose as the hair-shirt strolling only crowd.

Riddled does not a majority make.

My ilk might tend to be very vocal about the rest of you trying to ruin the sport, but just judging by your 11 page thread on allowing a more liberal use of carts at Bandon, we are getting closer to the one percentage.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
 --Albert Camus

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 07:45:54 PM »
Dan,

You should stay out of politics. You don't have to be a pollster to know you've won this debate here. You're left arguing with yourself and the not so persuasive Melvyn, who is surely The Most Uninteresting Person in the World.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 08:15:16 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 07:50:35 PM »

There is a difference between impact and damage.  I seriously doubt some ATV use on NPS trails would have an adverse effect on said trails. 

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 08:10:33 PM »

There is a difference between impact and damage.  I seriously doubt some ATV use on NPS trails would have an adverse effect on said trails. 


Mark,

With respect, you are seriously mistaken.  It's a long report, the pictures should be evidence enough.

www.glorietamesa.org/ATVreport.pdf

And this where Dan's use of my analogy continues to fall short.  Impact/damage to terrain by ATV's and the impact caused by carts to golf courses aren't comparable.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 08:16:40 PM »
Mark Pritchett writes:
There is a difference between impact and damage.  I seriously doubt some ATV use on NPS trails would have an adverse effect on said trails. 

Mark, is there any chance you were one of those arguing golf carts would only be used by the disabled? 

And this where Dan's use of my analogy continues to fall short.  Impact/damage to terrain by ATV's and the impact caused by carts to golf courses aren't comparable.

I see an awful lot of damage done by carts on golf courses and golf in general.

If we didn't have golf carts, how many cart paths do you think we would need?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Few people know how to take a walk. The qualifications are endurance, plain clothes, old shoes, an eye for nature, good humor, vast curiosity, good speech, good silence and nothing too much.
 --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2012, 08:27:07 PM »
Dan,

Now I've got it, you passed the Bar Exam exam. Good on you.

Bob

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2012, 08:40:37 PM »
Ben,

I am sure there are a few US Forest Service trails that have had heavy use under the watchful eye of the Dept. Of Ag. I will have to be on the lookout for a study from a non-prairie fairy group objectively reviewing NPS trails and ATVs. 

Dan,

I have not entered the debate on carts at Bandon as I could care less what Bandon (a private enterprise) does regarding their cart policy. 

Mark


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2012, 08:59:58 PM »
I see an awful lot of damage done by carts on golf courses and golf in general.

If we didn't have golf carts, how many cart paths do you think we would need?


I see an awful lot of damage done by carts on golf courses and golf in general.

If we didn't have golf carts, how many cart paths do you think we would need?

Dan,

I never said that carts don't have an impact, I said that their impact can't really compare to what an ATV can do to a trail. 

I would also like to ask, if we didn't have carts, how many golf courses would we have at all in this country?  If there were still roughly 25-30 million golfers, how fast would be rounds then with less courses?  How many people would give up the game when they still have some years left to be outside and enjoy the game?

Sorry, golf isn't hiking/backpacking, basketball, tennis, or anything else.  It's golf.  And it's evolution has been more good than bad.  I like having the choice to ride and drink beer with my buddies on a hot Saturday afternoon while the wives are at a chick film.  I like being able to hand my bag to a caddy and focus on the course and our interaction for good golf shots for 4 hours.  I like throwing my bag on my back and walking wonderful golf courses.  It's all good to me.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 09:03:59 PM »
I am sure there are a few US Forest Service trails that have had heavy use under the watchful eye of the Dept. Of Ag. I will have to be on the lookout for a study from a non-prairie fairy group objectively reviewing NPS trails and ATVs. 

Mark,

There is a difference between US Forest Service trails and a National Park.  Huge difference. 

As far as a positive review--in your words "objective"--of ATV impact to terrain, that one is going to be hard to find.  It's not hard to look at the physics of what an ATV is, how fast it is driven, the shape of their tires, etc., and conclude that they are far, far more damaging than hikers alone. 


Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2012, 10:26:08 PM »
Bob_Huntley writes:
Now I've got it, you passed the Bar Exam exam. Good on you.

Nope, gave up on law school. A year and half was more than enough. I'm starting on a masters in history this fall. I'm working in Hollywood, but I got plenty of time until school starts to argue for traditional golf.

I have not entered the debate on carts at Bandon as I could care less what Bandon (a private enterprise) does regarding their cart policy.

This isn't about Bandon, though it did grow out of that thread. My point was you not believing ATVs would not harm trails is very similar to how people use to argue carts would only be used by the disabled and therefore would have almost no impact on golf. Boy where those people wrong.

Ben Sims writes:
I never said that carts don't have an impact, I said that their impact can't really compare to what an ATV can do to a trail. 

Only because they haven't started paving the trails yet. Once they pave the hiking trail and make them more ATV friendly, then people will be arguing against you traditional hikers, saying you are exaggerating the damage done by ATVs.

I would also like to ask, if we didn't have carts, how many golf courses would we have at all in this country?

Much fewer.

If there were still roughly 25-30 million golfers, how fast would be rounds then with less courses?

We wouldn't have 25-30 million golfers.

How many people would give up the game when they still have some years left to be outside and enjoy the game?

The rare cart would be around for their use.

As far as a positive review--in your words "objective"--of ATV impact to terrain, that one is going to be hard to find.  It's not hard to look at the physics of what an ATV is, how fast it is driven, the shape of their tires, etc., and conclude that they are far, far more damaging than hikers alone.

And that is why the analogy works so well. Carts are far more damaging to golf and golf courses than walkers alone.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings.  Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees.  The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
 --John Muir

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Analogous to cartball (Cliff should ignore)
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 08:32:58 AM »
Bob_Huntley writes:
Now I've got it, you passed the Bar Exam exam. Good on you.

Nope, gave up on law school. A year and half was more than enough. I'm starting on a masters in history this fall. I'm working in Hollywood, but I got plenty of time until school starts to argue for traditional golf.

I have not entered the debate on carts at Bandon as I could care less what Bandon (a private enterprise) does regarding their cart policy.

This isn't about Bandon, though it did grow out of that thread. My point was you not believing ATVs would not harm trails is very similar to how people use to argue carts would only be used by the disabled and therefore would have almost no impact on golf. Boy where those people wrong.

Ben Sims writes:
I never said that carts don't have an impact, I said that their impact can't really compare to what an ATV can do to a trail.  

Only because they haven't started paving the trails yet. Once they pave the hiking trail and make them more ATV friendly, then people will be arguing against you traditional hikers, saying you are exaggerating the damage done by ATVs.

I would also like to ask, if we didn't have carts, how many golf courses would we have at all in this country?

Much fewer.

If there were still roughly 25-30 million golfers, how fast would be rounds then with less courses?

We wouldn't have 25-30 million golfers.

How many people would give up the game when they still have some years left to be outside and enjoy the game?

The rare cart would be around for their use.

As far as a positive review--in your words "objective"--of ATV impact to terrain, that one is going to be hard to find.  It's not hard to look at the physics of what an ATV is, how fast it is driven, the shape of their tires, etc., and conclude that they are far, far more damaging than hikers alone.

And that is why the analogy works so well. Carts are far more damaging to golf and golf courses than walkers alone.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings.  Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees.  The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
 --John Muir


Dan- If you suffer an injury that doesn`t allow you to walk do you give up the game or take a cart? Just wondering how far your altruism takes you.