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TEPaul

Pat:

As usual, it's too bad you don't have some idea what you're talking about before just jumping to conclusions and automatically calling people disingenuous.

Probably ten years ago Wayne and I drove to Far Hills to do research on William Flynn. It was early in the morning and the librarian in the USGA library was not ready for us and told us to come back in an hour so we went down the hall to the Green Section and asked the secretary if they had anything on William Flynn.

She said we had good timing because about ten files with close to 2000 letters had just come in----donated by a retired USGA Green Section regional agronomist in the Mid-Atlantic section who had them in his attic.

So Wayne and I spent the rest of the day scan-reading through the 2,000 letters looking for any mention of William Flynn. At the end of the day we had a couple of hundred letters that mentioned Flynn and the USGA kindly let us copy them all on their machines.

We've had those letters about Flynn for over ten years for the book and we actually named the 2,000 letters the "Agronomy Letters."

Perhaps three or four years ago the USGA got around to digitizing them all and putting them on their website. We weren't even aware of that until someone on this website realized they were digitized and began scanning a few of them onto this website.

Do you see any mention of William Flynn in the "Agronomy Letters" that have been put on here? Do you see Flynn's name on that letter from Macdonald to Wilson?

No you don't because his name is not on there!

So instead of just jumping to conclusions and automatically calling people disingenuous all the time including me above why don't you figure some of these kinds of things out first by perhaps asking a few pertinent questions instead of just jumping to conclusions and automatically calling people disingenuous?

Or better yet, Patrick, why don't you try doing YOUR OWN Goddamn research instead of depending on others to do it for you and then insulting them when they don't?

Patrick_Mucci

TE,

I really don't care about your methods of transportation, the time of day when you made your trip/s, the staff you encountered or any other information irrelevant to the core issue.

No attempts to distract, divert or deny the concealment of relevant documents are valid.

You, Wayne and Mike mocked the notion that CBM's communications with Merion weren't limited to written correspondence.
You derided the distinct possibility that CBM had phone conversations with the interested parties at Merion, despite the fact that you were in possession of the document referenced in David Moriarty's reply # 178.

Essentially, you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, since you claimed to have been in possession of that document for five (5) plus years.

When you were dismissing the premise I presented, namely that written correspondence wasn't necessarily the only method of communication CBM used, and that it was likely he also used the phone, you should have presented this document and not kept it to yourselves.

That would have been the proper thing to do.

Your individual and collective failure to do so causes the prudent person to wonder what else you've hidden or kept to yourselves that's relevant to the previous and ongoing discussions.

You may make light of the concealment, but I find it troubling.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 11:47:03 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks to Mike Cirba for providing yet another pertinent example of the kinds of double standards and stretched logic that have for so long made reasonable conversation nearly impossible!  

If one of the local heroes (such as Hugh Wilson, Alan Wilson, Robert Lesley, or in this case some old Committee report) ever says anything Mike and friends don't like, then Mike and friends just call it "humble modesty" and ignore it.  And if anyone else (like H.J. Whigham) ever says anything they don't like, then that person is vilified as a sycophant, a lackey, and a liar, and they ignore it.

It is neat trick allowing them to ignore the words of friends and foes alike and stick to their myths no matter what the evidence. Sort of a Philadelphia shuffle of historical analysis.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Posted for Mike Cirba:

But for some reason, this idea that golf pros from overseas somehow were instinctively better at designing golf courses than amateurs did not last very long in Philadelphia in those days.   Tom MacWood can argue that point but it is not supported by history.   Perhaps inspired by the examples of Leeds at Myopia, Emmet and Travis at Garden City, Macdonald and his Committee at NGLA, it seems this whole idea of architecture by Committee caught on with some fervor up until the first World War, at least in this neighborhood.


Golf pros from overseas somehow were instinctively better at designing golf courses than amateurs? When did I say that? Most of my essays have been written about amateur golf architects, including Crump and Tillinghast. You appear to be grasping for straws.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 11:57:59 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,
I know you're convinced that much of the history of Philadelphia golf is incorrect.  Are there other cities that, in your opinion, suffer from the same type of collective misunderstanding of history?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,
I know you're convinced that much of the history of Philadelphia golf is incorrect.  Are there other cities that, in your opinion, suffer from the same type of collective misunderstanding of history?

Dan, Portions of the history of Philadelphia golf are mistaken, but this isn't really all that unusual. There have been mistakes made on these sort of things from coast to coast since when these things were first recorded.   In California for example a number of clubs have been wholly or partially misattributed, and thanks to number of interested and competent individuals the record is slowly but surely being corrected.

The difference with Philadelphia, though, is that Philadelphia is "blessed" with self-appointed guardians who seem to be extremely insecure, proprietary, and protective of and about their golf history, and these defenders will apparently go to any length to protect their legends, no matter what the facts.  

Honestly Dan, you and others who have always stood by these guys, you have done them no favors.  The facts will come out eventually, as they have with Merion.  All that results is they end up embarrassing themselves.  It would be a much more productive if we could follow the facts where they might take us instead of having to constantly fight these self-appointed guardians of the myths.   That is generally the way it works outside of Philadelphia, and why these things generally only become such issues when these self-appointed guardians from Philadelphia get involved.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 01:58:09 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
From Mike Cirba:


 
"If one of the local heroes (such as Hugh Wilson, Alan Wilson, Robert Lesley, or in this case some old Committee report) ever says anything Mike and friends don't like, then Mike and friends just call it "humble modesty" and ignore it. 
 
David,
 
Actually, I do like what Hugh Wilson said and what Rodman Griscom said, quite a bit.   It bespeaks of their modesty and sense of generosity, personal qualities sometimes seemingly and sadly out of fashion these days.
 
But I have to ask you seriously; do you really believe that given their playing experiences and travels for over a decade, Griscom and Toulmin's prior design experience, Griscom's experiences at North Berwick, Griscom and Lloyd having served on the Merion Greens Committee for over a decade, Wilson being at Princeton when the new Willie Dunn course was being built, the fact that they were five of the best six players in the club out of a few hundred members, that the Committeemen had no more knowledge "than the average club member" in 1910 as Hugh Wilson humbly phrased it?   Seriously?
 
Perhaps it was simply Quaker thrift and self reliance that led to the number of inhouse work that was done on early Philadelphia courses.   I know Tom MacWood tells us all that by 1910 if a club wanted a good course they always went with someone experienced but that theory doesn't seem to hold up to actual evidence.   Here's some other early prominent Philadelphia area courses;
 
North Hills - First nine in 1907 by members J. Franklin Meehan/William Ridgeway/Frank Sheble.   In 1914 a new 18 course is designed and built on much of the original property by Hugh Wilson, Franklin Meehan, Ab Smith, and Alan Corson.
 
Seaview - Started in 1913, had soft-opening in 1914.   Designed by Hugh WIlson and local pro William Robinson.
 
Merion West - Designed by Hugh Wilson and opened in 1914.
 
LuLu - First nine designed by Franklin Meehan and Warren Webb in 1912.
 
Shawnee - Designed by amateur AW Tillinghast with construction done by Franklin Meehan.  Opened in 1911.
 
Pine Valley - Designed by Crump and Committee with English professional architect HS Colt.   Opened in 1913-18.
 
Moorestown - Designed by member Samuel Allen and opened in 1910.
 
Philmont - First nine by local pro John Reid in 1907.   Second nine attributed to Reid and landscape architect Oglesby Paul in 1909, although Tom MacWood believes HH Barker was involved.  Course significantly revamped and scientifically bunkered around 1914-15 by member Herman Strouse with Hugh WIlson, who also designed two totally new holes, today's 10th and 11th. 
 
Cobb's Creek - Designed by a GAP appointed Committee based on their prior experience with course design and construction, members included Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump, J. Franklin Meehan, Father Carr, and George Klauder.
 
 
I'm not certain why you continue to be argumentative and defensive in your responses, because as I've said, now that you've indicated the the initial routing of Merion East was indeed a collaborative effort including Hugh Wilson and his Committee, and that the bulk of this routing work was done in the spring of 1911, I think we are only going to differ by degrees of attribution to dole out to each that neither of us can prove because no actual evidence exists to support either position.  Personally, I'm glad we've reached this point and I've definitely learned quite a bit more about the origins of Merion through this process than I originally knew.
 
Thanks,
Mike
 
 

TEPaul

In response to a question by Dan Hermann, David Moriarty said the following in his Reply #205 above:



"The difference with Philadelphia, though, is that Philadelphia is "blessed" with self-appointed guardians who seem to be extremely insecure, proprietary, and protective of and about their golf history, and these defenders will apparently go to any length to protect their legends, no matter what the facts."



I think that quite accurately reflects what has been going on within this website for close to a decade now with the multiple threads on this DG (and an IMO piece) on the histories of golf architecture in and around Philadelphia, particularly Merion's. Since I have been a part of this website from its beginning I think I can say with a lot of assurance that the view articulated by that remark above of Moriarty's was begun almost a decade ago primarily by only two people and it continues today with the same two and perhaps a third who got on their bandwagon somewhere along the way.  

Did and does that view of Philadelphia golf architecture history mean to involve and include those from those clubs who recorded those clubs' histories in the beginning or is that view only directed at a few from Philadelphia who have contributed to and participated on this website?

If it is only the latter, I, for one, am willing to just whip the slate clean of anything previously said about the history of any architecture or any architect in and around Philadelphia-----and begin anew any discussion of anything to do with any of it!

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 06:07:14 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dan Herrmann . . .  err . . . Mike Cirba . . . whoever you are . . .

I grant these men the courtesy they deserve and take them at their word.  If they tell me they needed outside help I believe them.  You should do the same.

And frankly Mike, if you would ever expand your research beyond your provincial interests you might learn that, circa 1910 and before, Philadelphia was seriously lagging behind other major cities regarding the quality of golf courses and the quality of golfers it was producing.  At least this was the opinion of knowledgeable writers both inside and outside of Philadelphia!  They were getting their hat handed them so often and by so much in the Lesley Cup matches that they had to go out and include the sticks from Pittsburg (among them a few of the top amateur golfers in the country) just so they could compete.  And their courses were considered to be far below the level of what was available in other major metropolitan areas such as NY, Boston, and Chicago.  

In short, whatever they were doing in Philadelphia regarding golf in Philadelphia, it wasn't working. But to their great credit, unlike you guys, these great men didn't let insecurity, false pride, and provincialism get in their way, and they went out and got some help.  As I mentioned, they went and got Fownes and Co. for the golf competitions, and for architecture, the brought in Travis's man Barker at Merion, then CBM and HJW at Merion, and Colt at Pine Valley.   And they also did a hell of a lot of studying and practicing and learning and traveling on their own and they eventually developed into something special.  But as a first step toward improving things they brought in the foremost experts in America at the time.

For you to compare Hugh Wilson or Griscom in 1910 to the likes of HJ Whigham and CB Macdonald or even HH Barker?  Seriously? That is right up there with Melvyn's comparison of the "Father of Golf in Mobile" with CBM.  You must be mad, and Hugh Wilson and Rodnam Griscom would be the first to tell you'd have to be off your rocker to make such comparisons.  

That is why Griscom went out and got CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham in the summer of 1910 before Merion would even pull the trigger on a land purchase.  Griscom and Merion could have tried to muddle through as they had in the past, but Merion wanted the BEST and Griscom knew damn well that CBM and HJW were the best.  And that is why Merion relied on them throughout the planning process, and why Merion brought them back down a second time to determine and approve the final plan!  They didn't want Hugh Wilson's plan.   They wanted CBM's plan!  That is why it was presented to the board as the plan he and Whigham approved.  And do you know why Wilson wrote that he learned more in two days with CBM than he had learned in all his years of golfing?  Because he did!  

It was not "humble modesty" and it is insulting to the memories of these intelligent men of good judgement for you to twist their words the way you do.  It was their HONEST appreciation for the expertise of men who were in the midst of reshaping golf course design in America!  Read what they wrote and you will see this coming through in all sorts of unexpected places.  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 01:24:09 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

David Moriarty:

I read your last post with real interest!

That is some very interesting stuff you just explained there about the Lesley Cup connection around 1910 and before including its connection with Griscom and CBM. It's also particularly interesting about how the Philadelphia Lesley Cup team having gotten hammered for a while went west to Pittsburgh to get some good "sticks" such as W.C. Fownes (I think W.C. Fownes may've even won something like the 1910 US Amateur).

I know that Tom MacWood is at least an excellent researcher; I think we have all conceded that point long ago. Did you learn that about the Lesley Cup connection pre-1910 from him, and if not could you tell me where you found that information or even when? Maybe some of us local Philadelphia GCA researchers have been a bit too provincial.

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:25:50 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Figure it out for yourself.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

David Moriarty:

That's just another example of avoidance on your part as apparently you must feel actually answering it will put you in a bad light somehow. I think you realize this with everything I've been asking you to answer and explain. You know what the result would be if you actually did answer and honestly so you just keep finding any excuse to avoid it.

You are so transparent it is laughable!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
David Moriarty:

That's just another example of avoidance on your part as apparently you must feel actually answering it will put you in a bad light somehow. I think you realize this with everything I've been asking you to answer and explain. You know what the result would be if you actually did answer and honestly so you just keep finding any excuse to avoid it.

You are so transparent it is laughable!

No.  You should know by now that, unlike you, I don't make claims I cannot support. It is a recognition that you couldn't research your way out of a library if I handed you the floor plan, and I am tired of teaching you things only to see you turn around and try to take credit for figuring out what I have figured out.    Figure it out yourself, and if you manage that, I'll discuss it with you. 

Besides,  my message was to Mike Cirba and he, or at least Joe Bausch, is aware of what I am talking about. or if not they might be after they frantically research the issue.  You don't really belong in a conversation between people who actually do research. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
From Mike Cirba:


David,

I’m not sure why such vehement, vitriolic responses are needed?   Generally, a person comfortable that the facts support their assertions wouldn’t require such inflamed emotional responses to make their point, I think you’d agree.

Especially since you and I seem to agree on all the main points here I would think you could tone down the anti-Philadelphia zealotry for a post or two and perhaps lower the temperature a bit around here.   Frankly, I’d like to take you at your word that you’re just trying to figure out what happened, and I think you’d agree that the pointless flame-throwing doesn’t do anything to advance that goal.   To wit, I believe based on all the evidence found to date (much of which you did not have at your disposal when you wrote your original essay), and your recent writings here outlining your evolved thinking that we agree in broad principle that;

1)      Merion East was primarily routed during the period of January through April, 1911.   There was no complete routing of the golf course, far from it, by November 1910 when they first secured the property.
2)      Merion East was routed by a Committee at Merion who had as advisors CBM and Whigham.  The primary documents show that they required multiple attempts (“many”) to get it right, visited CBM at NGLA in early March 1911, after which they came back and created “five different plans”.   We likely still disagree on how much actual “routing” work in terms of placing specific holes in specific locations on the property was done by CBM and Whigham vs the Committee but I’m comfortable with that and believe the record supports my interpretation.   I think we can agree to differ there.
3)      Hugh Wilson stated that his Committee was created in “early 1911” and then went on to describe their subsequent visit to NGLA, stating that they spent the first night going over “sketches and explanations of the correct principles of the holes that form that form the famous courses abroad and had stood the test of time”, and “learned what was right and what we should try to accomplish with our natural conditions”, and the next day, “going over the course and studying the various holes”.   In this light, even though he himself hadn’t yet been to see the courses overseas, he did see CBM’s scale drawings as well as CBM’s application of those principles and template holes on the ground at NGLA both prior to the finalization of the routing for Merion as well as prior to the start of Merion’s construction.   
4)      CBM and Whigham visited Merion in April of 1911 to help them pick the best of their plans after which that recommendation went forward to the Merion Board of Governors for approval and implementation.   I think we would agree that said “five different plans” were done on paper based on study in the field, as it’s clear from the MCC Meeting minutes that the preferred plan was submitted for review and approval at the meeting on April 19th, 1911.
5)      I think we agree that construction of the golf course began shortly after that board meeting, and that no such golf course existed on the ground prior to that time as has been contended by some, despite Wilson’s somewhat arcane reference to “the golf course” in his earlier letters to Piper and Oakley.   Instead it’s clear he was referring to the land that was going to be constructed into a golf course, and his early plowing work in March was of the entire property, after which proper amounts of fertilizer and seeds were described for greens, fairways, and roughs in May letters, after the routing was determined and approved.   
6)      Similarly, I think we agree that whatever routing that HH Barker did for Joseph Connell on some unknown 100 acres of land held by HDC in June 1910 (the only land they owned outright at the time was the Johnson Farm), it seems unlikely that it was ever used in whole or in part.   Other than one November 1910 news report that I found at the Free Library of Philadelphia, which seems to have misinterpreted the November 1910 communications to Merion members that included Barker’s letter to Connell from six months prior, no one else in the history of Merion referred to this routing again,and it’s clear that multiple routing attempts took place after this, one of which was approved and used.   You may have to break this to Tom MacWood gently.  ;)
7)      Alan Wilson’s account also referred to CBM and Whigham’s contacts with the club, stating that they “twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about our plans.  They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of Merion East were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the design and construction of the two courses rests upon the special Construction Committee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E. Griscom, H.G. Lloyd. Dr. Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman.”
8)      Hugh Wilson went abroad in early 1912 after the basic course was routed, and tees, fairways, greens built and seeded.   The roughs were also seeded.   
9)      Wilson returned with “a lot of drawings which we studied carefully, hoping to incorporate their good features on our course” in the words of Richard Francis.  Other news accounts mention him taking photographs.
10)  All of the opening day accounts in September 1912 talked about how the course was very much a work in progress with very little bunkering.   It was mentioned that the artificial hazards in place at that time were largely viewed to be “experimental”.   
11)  Even by 1915 Merion was described as having less in the way of artificial bunkering than most nine hole courses, and it was only the awarding of the 1916 US Amateur to Merion that created the impetus to toughen it for top tournament play.   This resulted in a broad bunkering and course revision plan (that included rebuilding a number of greens) that was implemented in time for the event.

I think we’d also agree on a number of recent speculations that have arisen on this and other threads.   For instance, I think Patrick Mucci’s attempts to create many more contacts between CBM and Merion have no basis in evidence.   For instance, although Herbert Warren Wind’s 1971 account talks about multiple visits to NGLA, Hugh Wilson only indicates one visit for an overnight stay.   Alan Wilson’s account seems to concur.

Also, I still find it very odd that if this was all being directed by CBM and Whigham from afar, with ongoing communications on a regular basis that Committeeman Richard Francis wouldn’t see fit to even mention the involvement of Macdonald and Whigham in his first-person account of the creation of the golf course!   Not a single word of mention from one of the men who created the final routing that was eventually built?   I find that to be rather telling, don’t you?   Especially if there was supposed constant communications (and implied direction) coming from CBM and Whigham to these men?

Similarly, as you mentioned to me the other day, it was CBM who told Tillinghast about what was going on at Merion as well as his involvement with the Committee.   Yet, in his extensive review of the course for American Cricketer there was not a single mention of CBM and/or Whigham, much less crediting them with the design, but instead only a mention that Hugh Wilson and his committee “deserve the congratulations of all golfers”.   Similarly, Alex Findlay, who we know interviewed Hugh Wilson, credited what Wilson and his committee had done as on par to what HC Leeds had done at Myopia.   Again, not a mention of any design role for CBM and or Whigham.   Again, I find that telling, as those are certainly expert witnesses.

As far as this latest brouhaha about the 1912 Francis letter, I seem to remember my interpretation at the time upon first seeing it transcribed here, which was prior to Joe Bausch finding the Alex Findlay article that made clear that the 1912 trip was Wilson’s first, and I think we all felt the same way…he HAD to have gone overseas prior to then, but our assumption was wrong.   No big deal, really, and hardly worth the fuss.   I appreciate you correcting our understanding about the trip and the timing.

To the point of your response about the challenges that the early Philadelphia golfers faced in inter-city matches, I do go into extensive reporting about that in the Cobb’s Creek book, mentioning that the prevailing feeling among the top players here at the time is that one of the reasons for their poor efforts was the lack of a true championship course (the work Ab Smith had done at HVGC cited by Tillinghast as perhaps coming closest, but still with limitations) in the area where great players could be developed.   This thinking was largely the impetus for the creation of Merion East, Pine Valley, and yes, Cobb’s Creek and their significant respective degree of high challenge.

As to the original question of this thread, as to what was meant by the term “laid out”, etc., I again think we can come to agreement here as the record as to how that term was used and understood around Philadelphia is undeniable.   Even as far back as 1898 and the report of Philadelphia golf clubs by Prosper Sennat was see the term used in each course profile was “Links Laid Out by”, and then indicating the architect, or designer.    Again in 1903, the “Golfer’s Record”, a 208 page publication “sanctioned and endorsed” by GAP, uses the term “Laid out by” on each course profile to list the architect or architects, such as “John Reid”, or “Willie Campbell”, or “Green Committee”, etc..   There was absolutely no provincial confusion around how the term was used, and when news accounts credited Hugh Wilson and committee with having laid out Merion East a decade later there was certainly no provincial confusion then either in terms of what that terminology meant to indicate.   No one here was assigning credit for someone putting stakes in the ground to a plan determined by someone else.   

Finally, while I’m a student of golf course and architectural history, you’re correct that I’ve only held myself out as an expert in a “provincial” way.   Frankly, I think there’s plenty of information to try and dig up here at home, such as, “What actual evidence exists to claim Hugh Wilson designed Phoenixville Country Club?”   That doesn’t mean that I’m not interested in it, and I’ve helped folks from California to New Jersey in trying to locate information about their course origins, because it interests me and its fun.   

But I also think this whole idea that one can present themselves as expert in everything, especially on a topic so geographically broad and with complex and sometimes confusing historical documentation comes with a risk.   For instance, I have no doubt that you would rewrite large portions of your essay if you had all the evidence at your disposal at that time.   I doubt you’ll admit that, but your essay made some rather broad conclusions based on limited information, such as writing Hugh Wilson out of the whole initial routing process, or claiming that the course was fully routed by November 1910, both assertions you seem to now concede were in error, however argumentatively.   I do hope you take the time to revise it someday, as it will certainly be improved by the addition of all the subsequent materials that came to light since you wrote it.

In any case, I do appreciate the levels of research and effort you’ve put into this matter, and others, and I will continue to read your posts on historical matters with earnest interest.   

Thanks,
Mike


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
There was no vehemence or vitriol in my post to you.  I am just tired and bored with your arguments and your misuse of the source material.  You cannot just ignore parts you don't like by calling it "humble modesty" and ignore other parts by calling great men like HJW "liars."

I quit reading after your number one and don't plan on continuing.  I just addressed this particular point with you and we have NO AGREEMENT.  If putting words in my mouth that you know I never said is your idea of productive conversation I want none of it.  

I don't see any point in discussing this with you.  You have nothing new to add.  You couldn't even list your first point without misrepresenting my position. You want to play the same broken records but I am done with that.  


  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:34:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"No.  You should know by now that, unlike you, I don't make claims I cannot support. It is a recognition that you couldn't research your way out of a library if I handed you the floor plan, and I am tired of teaching you things only to see you turn around and try to take credit for figuring out what I have figured out.    Figure it out yourself, and if you manage that, I'll discuss it with you."


David Moriarty:

Is that actually your response to what I asked you about the influence of the Lesley Cup with some of those guys around and before 1910 and the Lesley Cup's recruited some good sticks from Pittsburgh such as W.C. Fownes?

I'm just trying to figure out if you are trying to say now that it was you who pointed that out to me?

The last line is a very simple question! Can you handle that one or are you going to AVOID THAT ONE TOO?

You're telling us we play games? You are the absolute MASTER of game-playing on this website!!  

You are definitely scared to death of me and my questions to you and it shows on here like a light-bulb. You're only defense now appears to be total avoidance of important and pertinent questions!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:15:42 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Let's say, hypothetically, that a pathetic, obviously deranged drunk yells and screams and rants at my car while I am stopped at an intersection. . .  

Does it mean I am afraid of him if I ignore him, perhaps even rolling up my window?   I guess some might think so, but the reality is that I just don't want anything to do with him or with what he is saying.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

David Moriarty:

That's a strange observation. Are you sure you're on the right website?

Did a pathetic, deranged drunk yell and scream at you at the intersection of Sodom Rd. and Gommarah Blvd. out there in the City of the "Land of All Your Dreams Come True" and freak you out?" I Hope you're over the shock of it all now. How perfectly awful that must have been, but I'm sure you know there are some odd ones wandering around out there on the Left Coast!

If you're over the shock of it, can you answer a few simple but pertinent questions on golf and architectural history about what more you know and where you learned it regarding what you said above about the influence of the Lesley Cup around and before 1910 and why the Philadelphia team recruited some good sticks from Pittsburgh such as W.C. Fownes?

Or are you just going to continue to avoid my pertinent questions because you know it won't look so good if you actually tried to answer them honestly?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 01:01:53 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

TE,

For someone who's always telling me to do additional research and look things up, I don't know why you've taken such umbrage to David's giving you the same advice  ;D

DMoriarty

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I am not avoiding your questions.  I am laughing at them.  Do the research yourself.  It was no secret that Philadelphia couldn't hang with the teams from New York and Boston, and it was widely reported why they included the rest of Pennsylvania in with the Philadelphia team.   Even you could find the information if you had any inkling as to how to begin to look.  

You come here and pontificate and preach and gossip, but so far as I know you have never ever done anything remotely resembling original research yourself. You are a parasite glomming onto other's work, trying desperately to take credit for what others figure out.

Patrick is correct.  Take your own advice and figure it yourself.  

Or just wait a few hours and some lackey hoping for an invite or access will probably do your research for you, and then you can pontificate as if you figured it out yourself.  Same me as always.  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 01:22:03 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"I am not avoiding your questions.  I am laughing at them.  Do the research yourself.  It was no secret that Philadelphia couldn't hang with the teams from New York and Boston, and it was widely reported why they included the rest of Pennsylvania in with the Philadelphia team.   Even you could find the information if you had any inkling as to how to begin to look."



David Moriarty:

Well never mind then. I was just testing you to see if you were going to tell me you were the one who told me about the Lesley Cup and its history and influence and its reaching out to Pittsburgh to get W.C. Fownes.

You probably didn't know this but when the Lesley Cup's Philadelphia team reached out in 1909 to Pittsburgh to get that good stick W.C. Fownes to play for them after Philadelphia had gotten hammered for a few years by Boston and New York, they formed the Pennsylvania Golf Association basically to get Fownes! The Pennsylvania Golf Association was actually formed in the Lesley Cup's 1909 Trustee's meeting.

Maybe it was you who I found that out from since you are such a good researcher and I'm not. It's hard to remember now because as you said above I can't even research my way out of a library if I had a floor plan.

Maybe my memory is failing, and I could be wrong about it, but I think I was the President of the Pennsylvania Golf Association in 2006 and I'm pretty sure I'm still a Trustee of the Lesley Cup.


DMoriarty

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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

I think the following is helpful in understanding the multiple applications of what "laid out" meant in the old days and it's also interesting in the context of what it meant at Merion East in the beginning (1911). It is from a post today on the concurrent Herbert Warren Wind thread:



"So for example when some reporter later looks at Lesley's attribution indicating Wilson laid the course out the ground with the advice of CBM/HJW, and that reporter cuts it to Wilson "laid out" the course, does this mean that CBM didn't plan the course?   Not at all.  We know from looking at the project that the real story is Wilson laid it out on the ground according to CBM's plan."



I agree that this could mean (and certainly did mean) that Wilson and his committee laid the course out on the ground in the sense that he and his five man committee was also primarily responsible for constructing Merion East to a design plan (and it was a design plan submitted to paper before construction).

One way to read that statement above is that as Wilson and committee constructed the course on the ground to a design plan that CBM was with him on the course during construction to advise him. We have no record and no reference that this was the case (there is no record of Macdonald and Whigam being at Ardmore during the East course's construction phase).

Those men at Merion also recorded the term "plan" as in a paper plan of the design of the course. This is clear as they had a paper plan of the course attached to apparently their committee's report to the Board that this particular plan be approved by the Board for construction of the golf course.

It certainly does not mean from the available documents (board minutes and committee report and even Lesley's remarks to a reporter) that CBM did not advise on the design plan of the course, and, conversely it does not mean that Hugh Wilson and his committee was not responsible for creating the design plan of the golf course and the design on the paper plan on which they received advice and assistance from Macdonald and Whigam and which was approved by Macdonald/Whigam and submitted to the Board for their approval to constuct it on the ground.

The foregoing should help explain why Wilson and his committee have for close to a century been credited by numerous people with designing and constructing Merion East with Macdonald and Whigam acting as their "Advisor" (the records word it Macdonald and Whigam lent their valuable advice and assistance) on the design of the course.


 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 09:52:03 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

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From Mike Cirba:


 All,
  
 In going through my files recently, I came across the following April 1916 snippet from “Joe Bunker”, who wrote detailed golf columns for the Philadelphia Inquirer over a number of years.   I found it interesting for a number of reasons, not the least of which he seems to have been clear that in his mind “laying out” and “constructing” were two separate tasks, and labeled them such.   The article also makes clear who was actually responsible for construction of both courses at Merion as well as Seaview.   (in truth, Pickering was let go while supervising construction of Merion West, supplanted by his son-in-law William Flynn)
  
 
  
 This got me thinking about this whole discussion/disagreement, which is predicated on the assertion that those who said Hugh Wilson and his Committee “laid out” the East course at Merion actually meant something akin to construction, not design, and that they meant he laid out the course “on the ground” to someone else’s plan.   This assertion is fundamentally based on the argument that the terminology in use at the time was somewhat different than what we understand today, and that everyone who wrote that Wilson and committee “laid out” Merion was really referring to something akin to staking out the ground (again to someone else’s plan), or somehow overseeing construction.    
  
 I believe this assertion is also based on the idea that golf and golf terminology was at a period where we were transitioning from someone just laying out stakes in a field (although that by definition involves creativity) to a more purposeful, detailed process of using topographical maps in the planning process, which combined with onsite inspection, led over time to more rigorous designs and better courses.    I would argue that much of the following shows that transition had already happened.
  
 We know that many writers over time wrote that Hugh Wilson and his Committee “laid out” the course, including William Evans, Peter Putter, Henry Baily and the aforementioned Joe Bunker (as well as his successor Billy Bunker), and Tillinghast wrote that he "planned" the course, .   We also know that Hugh Wilson himself said “Our problem was to lay out the course, build, and seed eighteen greens and fifteen fairways.”   That was echoed by committeeman Richard Francis, who later wrote, “The Committee in charge of laying out and building the new course was composed of Messrs. Horatio G. Lloyd, Rodman E. Griscom, Hugh I. Wilson, and Dr. Harry Toulmin.   I was added…”   Both Wilson and Francis made clear a distinction between “laying out” and “construction”  as two separate activities, as did Henry Baily and later Alan Wilson.
  
 So, with that in mind, back to the original question of this thread, how was the term “laid out” understood when used at that time, and how was it used around Philadelphia in those years.   To examine that further, let’s look at other usages by “Joe Bunker”, thought by some to be possibly Tillinghast or his father, but unquestionably someone deeply connected with Philadelphia golf at the time.
  
 This first usage in June of 1914 refers to Tillinghast’s activities at the time.
  
 
  
 The next, from November of 1914, shows that Hugh Wilson was involved at making changes to the course at Philmont, including the creation of two new holes.   I find that interesting as by this time he was selected by Clarence Geist to design Seaview, and Ellis Gimbel brought him to Philmont.   All based on what has been argued to be his solo course at Merion West (which opened in May 1914)?
  
 
  
 The following from December 1914 talks about the design work that
 Donald Ross had done at Pinehurst to date;
  
 
  
 This next snippet talks about CB Macdonald as the man who “laid out”
 NGLA, and his views on Pine Valley;
  
 
  
 I find the next article from January 1915 fascinating because it makes clear the use of the term “laid out” and how the author intended it.   At this time, the course at Cobb’s Creek had already been “laid out” by the experts involved, yet it was four months before any construction started.   There is little doubt that the author would not have used the same term to refer to Merion and Seaview if he only meant construction.
  
 
  
 The following refers to George Klauder of Aronimink coming up with an
 idea for a new hole in a dream;
  
 
  
 This April 1915 article speaks to the new course at Torresdale, built
 on land that is part of today’s Torresdale-Frankford course, designed
 by then Merion pro George Sayers;
  
 
  
 This is a fascinating article, if only because it describes what is expected at that time for architectural services, whether provided by a professional or an amateur.   It is from August of 1915.
  
 
  
 More on the usage of the term as related to the design of Cobbs
 Creek, still prior to course opening;
  
 
  
 Joe Bunker’s successor “Billy Bunker” penned this interesting 1917 article that provided design attribution for a number of Philadelphia courses at the time.
  
 
  
 Here, Billy Bunker again uses the term referring to Ross and his work
 in 1917.   Interestingly for those who have argued that the recent
 changes to two greens at Merion would have had Hugh Wilson’s
 blessing, I think Hugh would have argued much differently!  

  
 
  
 And to come full circle, the following article from Oct. 1917  about the new course at Trydeffrin by Findlay refers to his design work at Altwood, in case there was any doubt about the original article on this thread, and what Joe Bunker meant when he said the course was “laid out” by Alex Findlay and Warren Webb, and then “constructed” by Fred Pickering.
  
 
  
 Thanks…I’m off to play Phoenixville, a course where there actually is
 some factual uncertainty as to Hugh Wilson’s design involvement.  ;)  
 ;D
  
 Mike
  
  

Bill_McBride

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Hold on, Tom Paul is gone again?    What now?    What next?