[Bob_Huntley]

I am surprised shocked and stunned at the arrogance shown on this particular topic. Only just recently I saw two men riding in a cart, one of them with a virulant cancer and undergoing the most brutal of treatments. The other chap has had COPD, Cardio Myopathy, Congestive Heart Failure, and  a few other things that can go wrong, not necessarily in that order. Any golfer would love to play  Bandon Dunes and I am delighted that Mr. Keiser has allowed cart use. Some of you might try walking four or five miles with a catheter up your dick, it is quite unpleasant.
 
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with the game. What a joke.

Bob

[Sam Morrow]

I am surprised shocked and stunned at the arrogance shown on this particular topic. Only just recently I saw two men riding in a cart, one of them with a virulant cancer and undergoing the most brutal of treatments. The other chap has had COPD, Cardio Myopathy, Congestive Heart Failure, and  a few other things that can go wrong, not necessarily in that order. Any golfer would love to play  Bandon Dunes and I am delighted that Mr. Keiser has allowed cart use. Some of you might try walking four or five miles with a catheter up your dick, it is quite unpleasant.
 
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with game. What a joke.

Bob

That's a great frickin post.

[Cliff Hamm]

I am not as delighted with Mr. Keiser as many here seem to be.  If I am wrong please correct me.  Bandon provides a limited number of carts for those with disabilities.  So, it is suggested that you arrange for a cart well in advance or you may not get one despite having a tee time.  Nonsense!  they should provide enough carts as needed.

I have been told that it requires much more than a simple doctor's note.  I know they will not accept a disability certificate for an automobile.  I am not clear on what is expected, but I do believe it must be submitted well in advance.  Many, many hurdles.  I also know that at Cabot Links you will be required to take a caddy if they will give you a cart for being disabled.  Oh great, now I must pay for a cart and also for a caddy that I don't want...Why should the disabled have to pay more, with the exception of the cost of the cart?

This is not to mention those with so called minor disabilities.  I am 61 and have Metatarsalgia.  Sounds serious, huh?  Not really pain in the ball of my foot when walking distances.  I can make it 9 holes with pain.  After that it is excruciating.  I do not consider this significant enough to be an ADA disability.  Would Bandon allow me to use a cart for this purpose?  I'd like to know as I am hopefully going to try to play as a single late this summer.  Think they'll mind if I rest after every shot?

I don't have the whole answer.  I do know that anyone with a auto disability placard should not have to jump thru hoops.  They should be able to arrive at the course and have  a cart.  Advanced reservations not required.  They should not have to also have a caddy.  I also think that perhaps for anyone over 65 a cart should be allowed.  No answers, but the current policy is not a good one.

p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age

[Dan King]

Bob_Huntley writes:
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with the game. What a joke.

Bob, you must be reading posts I didn't see. I haven't seen a single post that said people who needs carts for medical reasons shouldn't get them. As you mention, Bandon allows carts for such purposes. The issue is people who want carts because they prefer them to walking. Those people have countless other courses to choose from and should avoid Bandon if they want to play cartball.

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is the only game where the worst player gets the best of it. He obtains more out of it as regards both exercise and enjoyment, for the good player gets worried over the slightest mistake, whereas the poor player makes too many mistakes to worry about them.
  --David Lloyd George

[Bob_Huntley]

My dear Daniel,

You have been away too long, I have seen many a post that just said what I wrote. It went something like this, "You can play with the use of a cart but don't call it golf."

Bob

[Cliff Hamm]

Bob_Huntley writes:
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with the game. What a joke.

Bob, you must be reading posts I didn't see. I haven't seen a single post that said people who needs carts for medical reasons shouldn't get them. As you mention, Bandon allows carts for such purposes. The issue is people who want carts because they prefer them to walking. Those people have countless other courses to choose from and should avoid Bandon if they want to play cartball.

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is the only game where the worst player gets the best of it. He obtains more out of it as regards both exercise and enjoyment, for the good player gets worried over the slightest mistake, whereas the poor player makes too many mistakes to worry about them.
  --David Lloyd George

Dan..what do you do with those who have significant difficulty walking long distances but are not technically disabled?  As with most issues is the areas of grey that cause difficulty.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age

Well, since you asked nicely ...

I'm 54, but been told I look much older.  

I have three grandkids, I'm in terrible shape, and I'm losing my hair.

There are numerous courses I'd like to play but I don't, because I know the walk would be too tough. It's sad, but I would never insist the course change to meet my needs. If I want to play them I'll have to get in shape.  If I'm unwilling, then that is my problem not the golf courses.  

Cliff, when you walk a golf course how many golf clubs do you carry?

Cheers,
Dan King

Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it.  There's a human scale that flying cannot offer.
 --Lorne Rubenstein

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff Hamm writes:
p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age

Well, since you asked nicely ...

I'm 54, but been told I look much older.  

I have three grandkids, I'm in terrible shape, and I'm losing my hair.

There are numerous courses I'd like to play but I don't, because I know the walk would be too tough. It's sad, but I would never insist the course change to meet my needs. If I want to play them I'll have to get in shape.  If I'm unwilling, then that is my problem not the golf courses.  

Cliff, hen you walk a golf course how many golf clubs do you carry?

Cheers,
Dan King

[/

Dan...I am 61.  Long a traditionalist.  Never wore shorts until I was 30 as a result of caddying at Baltusrol which at that time did not allow shorts.  Always walked and felt walking was an integral part of the game...BUT one does age.  I am in fair shape, but would say compared with the general population certainly better than average.  My difficulty is not walking the course it is simply my right foot.  Severe pain.  I can make it 9 holes and that's about it.  BTW when I walk 9 i use a push cart and don't carry any longer, so the number of clubs is irrelevant.

ps lost my hair years ago

[Dan King]

Bob_Huntley writes:
You have been away too long, I have seen many a post that just said what I wrote. It went something like this, "You can play with the use of a cart but don't call it golf."

I have no idea if I ever said it in the past or not, but I see a big difference between someone who is disabled and someone who just prefers cartball.

However, I might have said the golf world would be a better place without carts.  I think they have been a serious detriment to the game. If I could wave a magic wand and be rid of carts then I would.  Unfortunately, it would mean many disabled people wouldn't be able to play the game.

Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan..what do you do with those who have significant difficulty walking long distances but are not technically disabled?  As with most issues is the areas of grey that cause difficulty.

I'd say the choice is to either get in shape, walk easier golf courses, carry fewer clubs, hire a caddy or play one of the thousands of golf courses that allow cartball. I would not say a resort on the coast of Oregon must change to meet their needs.

Cheers,
Dan King

I've been responding to too many posts in this thread. I'm running out of walking quotes.

Golf seems to me an arduous way to go for a walk. I prefer to take the dogs out.
 --Princess Anne

[Terry Lavin]

Walking is great. Walking is better. Walking is more true to the roots of the game.

Riding is fun. Riding is pleasant. Riding is easier.

How about a resort that requires walking yet ALLOWS riding?  Is there not an available middle ground or are we just going to rail like absolutists?

[Cliff Hamm]

So, Dan you're most recent response indicates just play other courses.  The issue is not my shape.  The issue is not the number of clubs I carry.  The issue is not needing a caddy.  The issue is simply pain in my right foot.

BTW are you able to walk Bandon?

[Mac Plumart]

Cliff...

Do you take anything to play golf?

Advil, tramadol, hydrocodone, oxycodone...anything like that.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan...I am 61.  Long a tradidtionalist.  Never wore shorts until I was 30 as a result of caddying at Baltusrol which at that time did not allow shorts.  Always walked and felt walking was an integral part of the game...BUT one does age.  I am in fair shape, but would say compared with the general population certainly better than average.  My difficulty is not walking the course it is simply my right foot.  Severe pain.  I can make it 9 holes and that's about it.  BTW when I walk 9 i use a push cart and don't caddy any longer, so the number of clubs is irrelevant...

Funny thing I am about as non-traditional as they come about everything but golf.

If I want to play Baltusrol can I just show up at the counter, pay my fees and play the course?  If I want to play Baltusrol I have to do some jumping through hoops prior to showing up.  If you want to ride a cart at Bandon you will also have to jump through some hoops ahead of time. I'm betting you will probably have a much easier time getting a cart at Bandon than I will getting a tee-time at Baltusrol. What makes one hoop jumping hunky dory and one an abomination?

Terry Lavin writes:
How about a resort that requires walking yet ALLOWS riding?

I don't know what that means.  It would seem any course that requires walking by definition would not allow riding.

Cliff Hamm writes:
BTW are you able to walk Bandon?

Last time I was there playing a second 18 was tough. Before I go back again I will better prepare. My age is definitely catching up to me.

Cheers,
Dan King

If you want to take long walks, take long walks. If you want to hit things with a stick, hit things with a stick. But there's no excuse for combining the two and putting the results on TV. Golf is not so much a sport as an assault to lawns.
 --National Lampoon

[Cliff Hamm]

Dan.. your comments are now approaching absurdity. You're comparing access to an elite club with getting a cart at a public course.  Please.... I mentioned Baltusrol to show my roots.  There is NO comparison between a private club like Baltusrol and Bandon.  Of course you jump thru hoops to access an exclusive club.  I would never expect anyhthing less. Why tho should the disabled have to jump thru hoops to access a cart at a public course???  Your comments are beyond ridiculous....and yes, you are able to walk 18.  Walking 36 was tough.  Of course you should walk...do you have no understanding for those who can't??

[Tim Martin]

Cliff...

Do you take anything to play golf?

Advil, tramadol, hydrocodone, oxycodone...anything like that.

Mac-I am just wondering what the point of your question is.

[Mac Plumart]

Cliff...

Do you take anything to play golf?

Advil, tramadol, hydrocodone, oxycodone...anything like that.

Mac-I am just wondering what the point of your question is.

Why?

[Jud_T]

My knees have gotten to the point where I either walk with a caddie or ride a cart.  Even a pushcart up hills has caused me problems.  This isn't an issue for me at Bandon as they have some of the best caddies around available.  When I can no longer walk the courses I'll either get a medical excuse or simply play one of the several hundred other great courses this country has to offer with a cart.  Bandon is singular, Bandon sets an example, and it is a good and important one.  It's not about being exclusionary.  It's about a higher calling and a special mileu that does not, for the most part, include carts.  F*$#ing deal with it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Terry,

I just suffered a complex tear of my Meniscus making it almost impossible to walk 18 holes.

I can play a decent round provided I have a cart.

Years ago, many years ago, at Montclair Golf Club, if you wanted to have a cart, you had to have a bona fide letter from a doctor explaining your condition and why you needed a cart.

I would think that medical exceptions make sense.

Why deprive someone of playing the course because they are limited by a medical condition beyond their influence.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan.. your comments are now approaching absurdity.

That's only because your questions are absurd.

You're comparing access to an elite club with getting a cart at a public course.

I'm comparing access to two different golf courses. You didn't want to jump through hoops to get a cart because of your disability. You want Bandon to go out and purchase a fleet of carts so they will be sure to have one when you just so happen to show up. And you call me absurd?

Please.... I mentioned Baltusrol to show my roots.  There is NO comparison between a private club like Baltusrol and Bandon.

Green grass, 18 holes per golf course, bunkers, hazards, tees, etc...  I'd say their similarities are much more prevalent than their differences. Comparing Bandon to the Eiffel Tower, and they would be tough to compare. Comparing Baltusrol and Bandon is much easier.

Of course you jump thru hoops to access an exclusive club.  I would never expect anyhthing less. Why tho should the disabled have to jump thru hoops to access a cart at a public course???

Because those are the rules the course has created ... just like Baltusrol created rules for how to get a tee time. I'm still failing to see why one is cool the other not so.

Your comments are beyond ridiculous....and yes, you are able to walk 18.  Walking 36 was tough.  Of course you should walk...do you have no understanding for those who can't?Huh??

The choice is to not screw up a course I love versus giving you quick access to a course you might show up to about once a year.  I'm going to side with not screwing up Bandon, just as you seem to think it is okay for Baltusrol to keep out riffraff such as me.

Both courses have rules that keep out some golfers. Calling the comparison beyond ridiculous doesn't address why you think one is fine and the other not.

Cheers,
Dan King

All I've got against golf is it takes you so far from the clubhouse.
 --Eric Linklater

[Cliff Hamm]

Pat....seems like a change of heart from my remembrance of other threads on disabilities and carts.  Nothing like it hitting home for folks to see the light...

[Ed Brzezowski]

I wonder if Casey Martin is reading this thread?

[Cliff Hamm]

Dan...I will refrain from getting into a conversation that has no logic to it... BTW the conversation is about cart access and not the exclusive nature of American golf clubs.

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
BTW the conversation is about cart access and not the exclusive nature of American golf clubs.

Please be sure to give me directions prior to my jumping into a discussion with you. I'd hate to ever use analogies that you find disagreeable. If you don't want to put a list of forbidden arguments at the bottom of every post, perhaps just send me a general list via email and I will tack it to my bulletin board.

Cheers,
Dan King

Many play golf, and one odd effect of that persuit is that they return to work manifestly stupider than they were. It is, I think, the company of other golfers.
 --G.W. Lyttleton

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am a great supporter of the Paralympic  Games. It’s a great idea and gives the participants the opportunity to give their best. However the organisers have used some common sense by addressing the issues first and foremost calling it what it is Paralympic Games. They are not the Olympics Games.

It’s good to see if you have a medical condition or suffering the ravages of time and age that there is a facility to play a game. Why not make the same adjustment with the naming after the way the game is played, if you ride rather than walk, its cart golf etc,. After all it is a different game, yes a variation of golf but not as the riders receive an unfair advantage in remaining fresher thus allowing for stronger strokes.

The stress and strain of Walking needs to be analysed  and noted, then compared to the same stress/strain levels of riding a cart with an open and honest disclosure made of the results. If by riding the player benefits then a ruling should be balance the equation with penalty strokes and the game officially known as Cart Golf or cart balling.
 
But many want their cake as well as eat it. The abuse of using the cart has become a serious problem in that many who use carts never accept their own weakness, preferring to embarrass others to join in and jump on board. It reminds me of days when smoking was regarded as cool, that others had to breath in your smoke, yet many smokers and alas non-smokers never survived to old age. All because the weak and selfish in our society would prefer us not to question their commitment let alone resolve to a once great walking game called golf

So Bob if you ride you are playing cart ball or cart golf it’s not Golf

Yes it is right to have facilities for those with age or medical handicaps, but not at the expense of creating Non Walking Golf courses. That IMHO is a total betrayal of the game of golf. 

I wish you a good night

[Cliff Hamm]

Perhaps addressing the issue without analogies/changing the topic would be a prudent course of action.....  I assume you continue to believe that if you are not totally out of shape, do not carry too many clubs, do not require a caddy, but cannot walk a course you should not be allowed access?  BTW not providing a cart equates to no access

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