[Mac Plumart]

I try to be civil but I'm sick and fucking tired of the cart argument and the inclusion of nonexistent WMD's and such. What does that have to do with anything?

I was just thinking how interesting this discussion was* and how great an impact how you chose to play a course impacts your view of the architectural quality of the course..specifically, what aspects of architecture you value.  Walkers might favor routing...riders might really love shot values.

What type of golf you play has a HUGE impact on what courses you like and what type of architecture you prefer.  On top of riding vs. walking, there is low handicapper/high handicapper, big hitter/great putter, aerial game/bump and run, etc, etc, etc.

And, I still don't want Bandon to allow carts for everyone.  



*except for the WMD tangent.

[Sam Morrow]

Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great. Besides, I've seen John Cleese in a cart, he's not a golfer.

[Sam Morrow]

I try to be civil but I'm sick and fucking tired of the cart argument and the inclusion of nonexistent WMD's and such. What does that have to do with anything?

I was just thinking how interesting this discussion was* and how great an impact how you chose to play a course impacts your view of the architectural quality of the course..specifically, what aspects of architecture you value.  Walkers might favor routing...riders might really love shot values.

What type of golf you play has a HUGE impact on what courses you like and what type of architecture you prefer.  On top of riding vs. walking, there is low handicapper/high handicapper, big hitter/great putter, aerial game/bump and run, etc, etc, etc.

And, I still don't want Bandon to allow carts for everyone.  



*except for the WMD tangent.

I'm with you Mac, it's a shame it became political.

[Dan King]

Sam Morrow writes:
Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.

That is probably why you are that guy.

Besides, I've seen John Cleese in a cart, he's not a golfer.

If you need your comedians to be golfers, your choices are limited.

Not non-existent, but limited

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf, strangling small animals and masturbation.
 --Graham Chapman listing his hobbies in All-England Summarize Proust Competitio

[Sam Morrow]

Sam Morrow writes:
Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.

That is probably why you are that guy.

Besides, I've seen John Cleese in a cart, he's not a golfer.

If you need your comedians to be golfers, your choices are limited.

Not non-existent, but limited

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf, strangling small animals and masturbation.
 --Graham Chapman listing his hobbies in All-England Summarize Proust Competitio

You ever seen the I Love Lucy with Jimmy Demaret?

[Eric Smith]

Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.

Nothing that great. That's funny.

[Sam Morrow]

Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.

Nothing that great. That's funny.

Go to sleep.

[Ben Sims]

I'm with you Mac, it's a shame it became political.

Sam,

You'll notice in post #224 who directed speech in that ridiculous direction.  Should we engage and silence this relic of the ancient law?  Nah, just give him another featured interview.  

[Sam Morrow]

I'm with you Mac, it's a shame it became political.

Sam,

You'll notice in post #224 who directed speech in that ridiculous direction.  Should we engage and silence this relic of the ancient law?  Nah, just give him another featured interview.  

That's a good one Ben, go get a Lone Star and put it on my tab.

[Eric Smith]

Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.

Nothing that great. That's funny.

Go to sleep.

Take him away. I want him fighting wabid wild animals within a week!

[Sam Morrow]

Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.

Nothing that great. That's funny.

Go to sleep.

Take him away. I want him fighting wabid wild animals within a week!

Where is Dr. Gray, why isn't he here anymore?

[Dan King]

Sam Morrow writes:
You ever seen the I Love Lucy with Jimmy Demaret?

Click here for the I Love Lucy episode featuring Jimmy Demaret

Cheers,
Dan King

You've got to be rich to have a swing like that.
 --Bob Hope (on the elegant swing of Bing Crosby)

[Sam Morrow]

I bet Lucy was a freak.

[Melvyn Morrow]

The users of carts shout the loudest when the question is raised. It’s a guilt thing I believe, it stems from the deep in-depth knowledge that they are cheating themselves by riding.  They know it saves energy allowing more power to their long shots against a walking player, they know it assists in conserving their strength, but so much is their desire to kick some ass that they continue to defend the indefensible.

Nevertheless I do not blame the weak minded, lazy, un-committed or even the cunning players for using a cart, it is deemed legal. The shoulder of blame must rest with the governing bodies for allowing the game to be so abused, but I suppose in their defence they did not know what they were doing, they never thought through the consequences to the game and the moral question are carts acceptable in a game that has a tradition of 600 years of walking. In any other sport it would not have been accepted as it changes the very structure of the game, deleting the need to walk the average 3-4 mile course with all the permutations that encompasses. The golfing equivalent of a WMD in the destruction is has brought the game of golf.

So Sam you have a reason for the use of WMD, pity you could not have seen it for yourself.

PS Sam are the modern freaks the able bodied players who use carts?

[Terry Lavin]

I took the last four days off from the site and checked in periodically on this thread. I learned the following:

Bandon will not change its policy (confirmed by Mike Keiser);

No babies have died during this discussion, so nothing bad has happened;

Mac and Melvyn have a cart waiting for them at Dismal River.

I played Dismal the past four days and if there is a Jesus, he will allow carts.

[Tim Martin]

I took the last four days off from the site and checked in periodically on this thread. I learned the following:

Bandon will not change its policy (confirmed by Mike Keiser);

No babies have died during this discussion, so nothing bad has happened;

Mac and Melvyn have a cart waiting for them at Dismal River.

I played Dismal the past four days and if there is a Jesus, he will allow carts.

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sorry Terry there may be a God(s) but no Jesus in the historical records, so there should be no carts. Disagree then where is your proof, something I believe you seek - well sometimes in your position.

[Terry Lavin]

Melvyn,

I hope I have this colloquialism correctly:  Sod off.

[Mac Plumart]

Terry...

I ride/walk at about a 50/50 split.  So far, 100% of the time at Dismal...and I love every minute of it.

EDIT...I typed this up a day or so ago and was going to post it, but the thread kind of went haywire, again.  Since Terry mentioned me by name, I figured now might be a good time to actually post it...



Like Dan King says, I tend to agree with Melvyn more than I disagree.  Do I agree with him 100%.  NO!!  But he hits on a few things, quite frequently , that really make sense to me.  

He always mentions golf was born a walking game and then Dan King says, “The problem is they (carts) have taken over golf, and now people think it is just plain silly to think of golf as a walking game.”  This totally hits home with me.  When I started golf, 5 years ago, I never gave a second thought about riding a cart.  People I played with rode…period.  All the time…almost everywhere…except East Lake…as it is walking only.  This was always a special treat and people always raved about how cool an experience playing East Lake was because we walked there.  Then I stumble on to GCA.com and see people talking about walking golf.  You know what, walking and playing golf is a special treat…but you can do it virtually anytime you want…you don’t have to play a special venue like East Lake.  Now, you will get weird looks and people will think you are a bit odd…at least at a lot of US courses…but usually you can do it.

Now…alluding to the fact that people like Bob Huntley aren’t golfers rather players is not one of the aspects of Melvyn’s rants I agree with.  Bob is quite clearly a dedicated golfer through and through.  I’ve never met him, but I have communicated with him and he is certainly the real deal.  And I do not walk 100% of the time.  Heck, maybe I walk 50% of the time…and some venues I can’t walk (my last venture was to Kingsley and Crystal Downs, too hilly for me…I rode 100% of those rounds).  If someone wants to say I’m not a golfer for this…I don’t care.  I’m comfortable with who I am and, although at first I was offended and hurt by Melvyn’s rants, I don’t mind whatever he (or anyone else) chooses to call me.  And, yes, Melvyn has made it quite clear that people with health issues who need to ride a cart are a separate category of people from the healthy who choose to ride.  But again, I’m comfortable enough with who I am that even if I was 100% physical capable of walking 100% of the time but yet chose to ride a percentage of the time…call me whatever you want…it doesn’t phase me.

Ben Sims…I find it motivating in the aspects that are centered on committing to the game of golf.  Melvyn says the following, “Golf is a game of tradition, it has its own rules of conduct, it was and is a way of life. To be known as a golfer you knew that it would have an effect upon not just you but your wife and family, not to mention your social activities. Being a golfer you commit to that knowing that it is the consequence of your own actions. The game engulfs you and all the ones you love.”

Again, I find/found this to be true.  And it is not just this post by Melvyn, but all of his past comments about committing to the game.  It rings true to me and also reminds me of quote from the Shivas Irons book, “Y’ell come away from the links with a new hold on life, that is certain if ye play the game with all your heart.”

I’m not the best player in the world.  I’m not an architect.  I’m not involved with golf as a business.  But I have committed to the game on a deep level. (Like I’m sure many others of you have as well).  And my life is much, much better for it.  I’ve experienced wonderful times on the golf course and traveling to the golf course.  I’ve learned a lot about myself.  I’ve learned a lot about others.  I’ve found many new friends.  And I’m could go on and on about the benefits to my life through the game of golf.  In fact, the more I commit to it…the better my life gets.  Including trying to walk as much as I can while I play.


Again, do I agree with Melvyn on every thought/idea/tact he has or takes?  No.  But do I agree with a lot of his points?  Yes.  I think a lot of us do.

Do I think Bandon should allow golf carts for the non-disabled?  No.  It is part of the resorts charm and it attracts a specific type of golfer.   Generally, I tend to like that specific type of golfer.  I’ll certainly be back to Bandon because of this.

[William_G]

Mac,

Interesting!

(Of course all the following is predicated upon you aren't playing with someone talking your ear off.)

What part of the sensation of golf is most lost in a cart?

If on the ocean, is it the loss of walking with while contemplating the sounds of the waves crashing?

Or in a parkland course, is it the loss of smelling the flowers or hearing the birds chirping?

What is lost in a cart do you think?

Or what is gained by walking if so able?

Thanks!

[Bart Bradley]

Mac:

Thanks for sharing your heart.  You are a good man.

I like to walk.  I mostly walk.  People who think about golf, discuss golf, read about it, hold its history dear and care about the game are GOLFERS, whether they ride or walk.  Read Mac's post.  He is a golfer.  It makes no difference whether he rides or walks.  Golf is part of his life, part of his soul.  That is what makes us GOLFERS.  

Bart

[Mac Plumart]

People who think about golf, discuss golf, read about it, hold its history dear and care about the game are GOLFERS, whether they ride or walk.

Bart, I agree.  A lot more goes into it rather than if someone walks or not.  IMO.




Gray…first off, great questions!  I’ll do my best to answer.  I’d love other to chime in as well.  Maybe we can make this a really good discussion thread AND tie it all together with architecture.


What part of the sensation of golf is most lost in a cart?

Exercise and fatigue are two things that are missing while riding a cart.  Part of the exercise is you have to carry what you bring.  No sandwich, three beers, coffee, and a Danish waiting for you in the cart.  Maybe you can stick some things in your bag, but you’ll feel it on holes 9-18, 19-36.  

I love the conversations with an entire foursome as well.  I think this adds to the sense of comraderie.  

A sense of accomplishment might also be missing.  At least it is for me.  I love the feeling of, “I did it!  Walked all 18!!”  Now this may be a “me” thing, but I’m sure we still all might have that sense on some level.  Jim Colton might get the feeling after 155 holes, but it only takes me 18.  

I also think the interaction with the land is missing.  Slopes, elevation changes, grass types, are all more acutely felt while walking.  Add in heat, wind, humidity, etc and you are totally more in tune with nature while walking and dealing with the elements.

Okay, I’ll stop on this one for now…but I think we can come up with a great list of stuff on this front.



If on the ocean, is it the loss of walking with while contemplating the sounds of the waves crashing?

Or in a parkland course, is it the loss of smelling the flowers or hearing the birds chirping?

I think I hit on these last two questions in my previous answer in the interaction with the land part.  But some interesting feelings while walking on an Oceanside course for me were:  At Kiawah, with the wind absolutely howling and disorienting me badly on the back 9; cumulative effect I suppose.  In a parkland setting (or maybe a bayside setting): Shinnecock Hills…rubbing the grass, being stunned by the quality of the maintenance, and then really feeling the elevation changes on 9, 10, 11.  And then seeing that great clubhouse lingering for a long-time at the end of 16.  What a great walking experience!!


What is lost in a cart do you think?

I think you can take the inverse of what I mentioned above to get to this answer.  But let’s flip the script.

WHAT IS GAINED BY USING A CART?

You can play more golf and not be as fatigued.  For example, Ballyneal really kills me when I walk.  The last 4, or so, holes are always a pain and fatigue induced blur for me.  If I was a member there, I could not do 36 walking in a day.  And like I mentioned in my first post on this one, I was really hurting at Bandon after day two.  I never really recovered but I did finish.

Also, people who normally wouldn’t be able to play are able to.  Elderly, disabled, amputees, etc.  This is a HUGE deal in my eyes.

Places that normally wouldn’t be able to support golf, can with carts.  Deserts, hot humid climates, hilly/severe terrain, etc.  Again, this is a HUGE deal to me.  Now someone who lives on Long Island, the sand belt of Australia, Scotland, or places like that probably doesn’t care or “get” this.  But someone in Phoenix, a full-time resident of Florida, someone in the mountains knows what I’m saying.

Again, I think we can get some more discussion on these points.

[William_G]

Mac,

Good on you, thanks for listening and giving it a go.

Right on with the climate that does not support walking golf!!!!

Never played Ballyneal, but hope to,

Thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ben Sims]

Mac,

I like almost everything you wrote.  I'd like to add one thing.

SOME COURSES ARE WORTH WALKING, SOME AREN'T. 

[Terry Lavin]

What a load of self-absorbed crap!  Kumbaya to all five of you. Just as well, four is too many for two carts.

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