News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Streamsong update...
« on: May 29, 2012, 11:25:28 AM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 11:37:46 AM »
Didn't know about this:

"Because of the routing, there will be a few of Doak’s holes used on the Coore/Crenshaw course, and vice-versa. “It was a real collaboration, not just lip service,” says Sunnarborg. “There was a mutual respect among the architects and their crews, who all knew each other. And there was definitely a healthy competition.”"


That's pretty cool, as Miley Cyrus impersonators would say.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 12:29:48 PM »
That was a good article by Matty G. I am really excited to see this course in person some day. I am not a huge fan of Florida golf, but this appears to shatter that mold.

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 01:42:05 PM »
Interesting that each course has a stretch of five consecutive holes that run in basically the same direction (generally west).

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 02:36:46 PM »
I am not that familiar with Florida, is there anything remotely near Steamsong to do at night? Is this going to be more a guys trip to Bandon Dunes, where you golf eat and sleep? Or is there any nighttime activities nearby a la Myrtle Beach?  We typically have some guys on oour golf trips that have golf as their second, or third priority.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 02:51:02 PM »
Keith,

Apparently one can find some trouble in nearby Plant City, if one were so inclined....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 03:02:44 PM »
I am not that familiar with Florida, is there anything remotely near Steamsong to do at night? Is this going to be more a guys trip to Bandon Dunes, where you golf eat and sleep? Or is there any nighttime activities nearby a la Myrtle Beach?  We typically have some guys on oour golf trips that have golf as their second, or third priority.
Keith, this area is pretty remote-a good hour from Tampa driving fast- do your buddies enjoy hog hunting at night?

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 03:12:48 PM »
Jack,
Some would say that they do go "Hog Hunting" at night!  ;D

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 03:33:01 PM »
I am not that familiar with Florida, is there anything remotely near Steamsong to do at night? Is this going to be more a guys trip to Bandon Dunes, where you golf eat and sleep? Or is there any nighttime activities nearby a la Myrtle Beach?  We typically have some guys on oour golf trips that have golf as their second, or third priority.

Showgirls Men's Club
4210 US Highway 92 E., Plant City
813-752-3835

Finish Line Saloon
5402 US Highway 92 W., Plant City
813-759-6703

I've never been to either one.

Plus: http://attractions.uptake.com/florida/plant_city/945674545.html
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 03:37:47 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 03:44:50 PM »

Showgirls Men's Club
4210 US Highway 92 E., Plant City
813-752-3835

Finish Line Saloon
5402 US Highway 92 W., Plant City
813-759-6703

I've never been to either one.
 

Captive audience.  They should staff up in 2013. 
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Brian Potash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 04:12:35 PM »
Jack,
Some would say that they do go "Hog Hunting" at night!  ;D

+1

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 04:13:59 PM »

Showgirls Men's Club
4210 US Highway 92 E., Plant City
813-752-3835

Finish Line Saloon
5402 US Highway 92 W., Plant City
813-759-6703

I've never been to either one.
 

Captive audience.  They should staff up in 2013.  


That they should.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 05:48:40 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 04:40:46 PM »
I will be in Tampa at the end of June. Obviously the course will not be open, but does anyone know if visits are possible to walk the course etc...

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 05:09:19 PM »
Good luck to all at Streamsong...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 06:17:12 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2012, 02:19:48 PM »
The article says "Because of the routing, there will be a few of Doak’s holes used on the Coore/Crenshaw course, and vice-versa."

Does that mean that each group had their own 18 holes, but at the end of the day due to the routing's overlapping that they 'traded' a few holes to make each course's routing a little more natural?

We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 02:38:08 PM »
The article says "Because of the routing, there will be a few of Doak’s holes used on the Coore/Crenshaw course, and vice-versa."

Does that mean that each group had their own 18 holes, but at the end of the day due to the routing's overlapping that they 'traded' a few holes to make each course's routing a little more natural?



Jason,

Tom should answer this more definitively, but I believe that both he and Bill Coore initially worked individually on-site and each came up with variations on 18-hole routings (one or the other was initially going to design a course on another lesser site away from the Streamsong site).

At some point they got together and realized they could get 36 holes on the sand piles at Streamsong and started working together to locate them. Doak found some, Coore found some, and together they found others. They finally had 36 holes but no clear idea who was going to build what. Then Doak actually routed them sequentially to make two 18-hole courses--the red pen/blue pen thing--so some of the holes Doak "found" ended up on the Red course and vice versa. Then there was the matter of who would build which course.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 07:03:50 PM »
The article says "Because of the routing, there will be a few of Doak’s holes used on the Coore/Crenshaw course, and vice-versa."

Does that mean that each group had their own 18 holes, but at the end of the day due to the routing's overlapping that they 'traded' a few holes to make each course's routing a little more natural?



Jason,

Tom should answer this more definitively, but I believe that both he and Bill Coore initially worked individually on-site and each came up with variations on 18-hole routings (one or the other was initially going to design a course on another lesser site away from the Streamsong site).

At some point they got together and realized they could get 36 holes on the sand piles at Streamsong and started working together to locate them. Doak found some, Coore found some, and together they found others. They finally had 36 holes but no clear idea who was going to build what. Then Doak actually routed them sequentially to make two 18-hole courses--the red pen/blue pen thing--so some of the holes Doak "found" ended up on the Red course and vice versa. Then there was the matter of who would build which course.

Well, some of that is kind of true.

Originally, the client wanted to build two courses in different styles in different locations, a couple of miles apart.  Naturally, Bill and I both preferred the great site we are now on.

By the time I got a map to work with, Bill had already been doing his walk-arounds on the what was called the "Sand Piles" site for a while, working on an 18-hole routing with various options.  He probably showed me 25 holes that he had considered, some of them overlapping, so you couldn't use all 25.  So, I said I would take a shot at a 36-hole routing, to see if we could fit them in.  The client's take was that the Sand Piles site wasn't quite big enough for that, or that the holes would be too close together and if it felt that way it would spoil the secluded nature of the place.

I think my first attempt at 36 holes that I showed Bill had about 34 holes jammed in there, but there were a lot of parallel holes running east and west, and we both agreed that some of the north-south holes that Bill had drawn [what are now Blue 4 and Blue 8] should definitely stay in the final plan for the sake of variety.  So we were really at about 30 holes.  After I left on that visit, Bill took a walk outside the confines of the land we'd been considering, and discovered his loop that are now Red 1-5 ... and we both were satisfied that 36 holes could fit.

On the first version of the 36-hole plan that I produced, with Bill's new starting loop for one course, the holes were slightly different and the two 13th greens were right together, so it was possible that Blue 1-13 could be joined with EITHER Blue 14-18 or Red 14-18 ... so the choice of who would build which course was not so clear-cut.  I thought that Bill might want to build Blue 1-13 and Red 14-18, because that comprised more of the core of his original 18-hole plan ... but I also opined that I thought that would tilt the balance more in favor of one course over the other, and that keeping my sequence of Red vs. Blue was a more even split.  Then, Bill suggested a tweak in the routing to the present version -- so that the 13th green of the Red was actually next to the 12th green of the Blue, meaning the two courses had to stay divided as I had divided them.

Neither Bill nor I really wanted to be the guy who declared which course he wanted ... we kept waiting for the other guy to say, and the other guy wouldn't say.  I was a bit nervous about taking the Red course, because I was less familiar with Bill's first few holes on the Red routing, but I never said so.  Finally, Bill said that while he'd be happy with either one, if I was going to make him choose, he would take the Red course, because his shaper Jimbo Wright told him to take the course which required more work, and those first few holes on the Red course were going to require more earthmoving than the rest.  So, if it doesn't all work out to Bill's favor, it's Jimbo's fault.

Just after we started building the two courses, Mosaic removed the huge drag line that did most of the earthwork out there by walking it out the second fairway of the Red course and mining that strip for phosphate, which they hadn't done yet -- totally destroying the cool subtle features of the two holes that Bill had planned there.  When Bill came back to the site, the first thing I told him was that I wasn't trading courses now ... I guess I said it even before I said hello.  He likes to tease me about that.

P.S.  I think that between the variations of his original routing and the starting loop for the Red course that he added later, Bill suggested well over half of the holes that made the final 36, including Blue 1 [which wasn't #1 originally but came between Blue 6 and Blue 18], and Blue 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 15 [we actually both found the same hole for Blue 15].  I suggested some of the outer loop of his Red course [Red 10, 11, 12], which ground Bill hadn't used, as well as Blue 9-10-11 on ground Bill had never considered.  The finishing holes on the Blue course are different than any of Bill's plans because I went a different direction with Blue 16, and had more ground to cover coming home.  I'm considering writing a small book on the process, if I can get Bill to collaborate, but the above is the abridged version.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2012, 07:38:38 PM »
And with all the bickering and off-topic threads that get people all sorts of bent out of shape, that last post, in a nutshell, is why I love this site. Thanks for writing out such a clear and detailed summary of the process. Very cool to read.

Andy Troeger

Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2012, 07:56:34 PM »
And with all the bickering and off-topic threads that get people all sorts of bent out of shape, that last post, in a nutshell, is why I love this site. Thanks for writing out such a clear and detailed summary of the process. Very cool to read.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Thanks for posting, Tom.

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2012, 08:27:38 PM »
Quote
I'm considering writing a small book on the process, if I can get Bill to collaborate, but the above is the abridged version.

Thanks for the backstory on Streamsong...I can't wait to get done there this winter...

I am guessing I missed something along the way, but when you mentioned a Streamsong book, I could not help but think of the book you wereworking on about Pacific Dunes.  I believe I read some place that you agreed to wait until after the Goodwin came out to release yours, but I can't state that for a fact.

Any chance we will ever see a book by you on the creation of Pacific Dunes?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2012, 11:02:42 PM »
Quote
I'm considering writing a small book on the process, if I can get Bill to collaborate, but the above is the abridged version.

Thanks for the backstory on Streamsong...I can't wait to get done there this winter...

I am guessing I missed something along the way, but when you mentioned a Streamsong book, I could not help but think of the book you wereworking on about Pacific Dunes.  I believe I read some place that you agreed to wait until after the Goodwin came out to release yours, but I can't state that for a fact.

Any chance we will ever see a book by you on the creation of Pacific Dunes?

Chris:

I have been back to working on the Pacific Dunes book over the past month or two.  My former associate Sara Mess volunteered to help put together the pictures and text, so I have been working on the text while she assembles all the photos we have going back to before the golf course was built.  It will probably take the rest of the year to put it together.  I'm still trying to figure out exactly how we are going to publish it -- how many books we'll do and how much it will sell for -- but it has momentum again and I'm sure we will finish it this time.

As for another book on Streamsong, that was half in jest, because we couldn't really do a book unless Bill was equally involved, and I have no idea how we would pin him down to work on it.  But I think I will throw something together for the client now that we're done, and it's likely that whatever we put together will be marketable at the resort once it opens.

NOTE:  A friend sent me a few photos of Streamsong yesterday, with the flags in the greens and some taken from a helicopter.  I wish I could share them here but I don't want to get my friend in trouble.  All I can say is, be prepared to start seeing some photos of the place pretty soon, and be prepared to be wowed.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 11:04:49 PM by Tom_Doak »

David Schofield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2012, 11:37:02 PM »
If the routing in Matty G's blog post is correct, the transitions between 7/8 Blue and 12/13 Blue seem like they cross 16 and 14 Red, respectively.  Is this accurate?

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2012, 11:40:08 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for sharing that story! It is so amazing to hear how projects like this come together. I can't wait to see Streamsong in person, but I am am excited to see pictures once they start coming out.

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2012, 11:45:17 PM »
Tom,

In honest opinion, how to you think the two courses will rank among the great portfolio both yourself and C&C have built?

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong update...
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2012, 06:41:32 AM »
Quote
I'm considering writing a small book on the process, if I can get Bill to collaborate, but the above is the abridged version.

Thanks for the backstory on Streamsong...I can't wait to get done there this winter...

I am guessing I missed something along the way, but when you mentioned a Streamsong book, I could not help but think of the book you wereworking on about Pacific Dunes.  I believe I read some place that you agreed to wait until after the Goodwin came out to release yours, but I can't state that for a fact.

Any chance we will ever see a book by you on the creation of Pacific Dunes?

Chris:

I have been back to working on the Pacific Dunes book over the past month or two.  My former associate Sara Mess volunteered to help put together the pictures and text, so I have been working on the text while she assembles all the photos we have going back to before the golf course was built.  It will probably take the rest of the year to put it together.  I'm still trying to figure out exactly how we are going to publish it -- how many books we'll do and how much it will sell for -- but it has momentum again and I'm sure we will finish it this time.

As for another book on Streamsong, that was half in jest, because we couldn't really do a book unless Bill was equally involved, and I have no idea how we would pin him down to work on it.  But I think I will throw something together for the client now that we're done, and it's likely that whatever we put together will be marketable at the resort once it opens.

NOTE:  A friend sent me a few photos of Streamsong yesterday, with the flags in the greens and some taken from a helicopter.  I wish I could share them here but I don't want to get my friend in trouble.  All I can say is, be prepared to start seeing some photos of the place pretty soon, and be prepared to be wowed.

Thanks Tom. Both the book news and your sentiments on Streamsong are exciting and I can't wait to see both...

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back