Is Yale The Greatest Tragedy In Golf?

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is a very old thread but deserves to be brought back up.

To me the tragedy at Yale continues to be its lack of inclusion on the Golf Digest top 100 list. 
Today it takes a significant drop on the Golfweek list, from 38 to 55? 

Gary,

Is that more indicative of the quality of the panelists or the golf course ?

What do panelists miss?

[Jim Hoak]

Argentina in 1914 had the 4th largest economy in the world; today it is 54th.  That is the price of poor politics.
In our realm of golf courses, Yale is Argentina.  Despite the efforts of a fine golf coach, the Yale course is a victim of University politics that has refused to recognize the masterpiece that it has.  I told the Yale President (now gone) that if Yale were given a Monet, it would take care of it.  And it had a Monet in the Yale course, but wasn't taking care of it.  He dismissed me as a fool. 
Now Yale has a new President, who has played some golf there.  We'll see.
I'm not just talking about course maintenance, although that is part of it.  I'm sure many on this site will disagree with me, but it also involves the overuse of the course through non-University golfers having too easy access, creating too much play and stress on the course.
It makes me very sad.

[Ian Andrew]

It's one of the best I have ever seen.
The lessons on scale are outstanding and the golf is sublime.
I would have it inside my own personal Top 25 in the World.
I would love to be a member.

It's quirky and that's not for some, but the real headwind is conditioning for raters.
It's always been proof that conditions matter a lot to most voters.

I certainly had a better appreciation for how much after the comments I received directly about Highlands Links after rater outings.
They were disappointed in the conditions and could not get by that fact to enjoy the golf course.

[Noel Freeman]

Argentina in 1914 had the 4th largest economy in the world; today it is 54th.  That is the price of poor politics.
In our realm of golf courses, Yale is Argentina.  Despite the efforts of a fine golf coach, the Yale course is a victim of University politics that has refused to recognize the masterpiece that it has.  I told the Yale President (now gone) that if Yale were given a Monet, it would take care of it.  And it had a Monet in the Yale course, but wasn't taking care of it.  He dismissed me as a fool. 
Now Yale has a new President, who has played some golf there.  We'll see.
I'm not just talking about course maintenance, although that is part of it.  I'm sure many on this site will disagree with me, but it also involves the overuse of the course through non-University golfers having too easy access, creating too much play and stress on the course.
It makes me very sad.

As a member of Yale until 2y ago when I moved West, I'm not agreeing with you Jim.  There is not overuse of the course, in fact the club needs those rounds and needs the play.  It is not a country club nor does is it ever going to be.  The grounds for golf are always going to be a challenge maintenance wise and Scott did a ton of drainage work to make the course playable after tough winters and wet springs.  While I'd love to see a sympathetic bunker restoration and put back of the 3rd hole and several of the greens (2,5,13), I don't know if it will ever happen.  That takes money and the club can use all the revenue it can.  FWIW, I would queue up as a solo or a two some on weekends at 7-7:30am at Yale and never had a problem getting out in 15-30 minutes without a tee time.. I realize that Sat or Sunday afternoons might not be so easy but I never got the feeling Yale is overcrowded with New Haven's hoi polloi.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Noel,

What's the size of Yale's endowment ?

$ 24,000,000,000

So remind us again, why does the course needs more rounds ?

[David_Madison]

Besides all of the other outstanding features of the architecture, it seem likely that the scale of the course is a positive factor in the rating. If so, that particular attribute would be less outstanding now as there have been other relatively recently developed courses of a similar scale.

[Phil Benedict]

I played Yale twice last year.  Both times I showed up at around 9 and was on the course within 45 minutes.  The vibe was great - good pace of play and company.  Other courses where I can just show up frustrate the hell out of me with the slow play and clueless golfers.

The course is a rough diamond but way better than when I first played there, when it was a swamp because the drainage was so bad. 

[Bill Brightly]

Argentina in 1914 had the 4th largest economy in the world; today it is 54th.  That is the price of poor politics.
In our realm of golf courses, Yale is Argentina.  Despite the efforts of a fine golf coach, the Yale course is a victim of University politics that has refused to recognize the masterpiece that it has.  I told the Yale President (now gone) that if Yale were given a Monet, it would take care of it.  And it had a Monet in the Yale course, but wasn't taking care of it.  He dismissed me as a fool. 
Now Yale has a new President, who has played some golf there.  We'll see.
I'm not just talking about course maintenance, although that is part of it.  I'm sure many on this site will disagree with me, but it also involves the overuse of the course through non-University golfers having too easy access, creating too much play and stress on the course.
It makes me very sad.

So Jim, write a paper entitled "Yale's Monet." Describe the historical importance of Raynor's work at Yale. Tell the story of what happened to mar the course, Scott Ramsey's positive changes over the last decade, and what you feel needs to be done to bring the course back to Monet status. Perhaps you can locate some student support (it would make for a pretty cool research topic) create some buzz on the campus, perhaps through the school newspaper.

[Sven Nilsen]

I told the Yale President (now gone) that if Yale were given a Monet, it would take care of it.  And it had a Monet in the Yale course, but wasn't taking care of it.  He dismissed me as a fool. 

Was this Levin?

[Benjamin Litman]

Sven: Sounds that way, although, if so, I would have invoked Lichtenstein (Levin's artistic preference) instead. I had no idea that easy-A Salovey (Peter Salovey, a longtime professor of Yale's popular first-year psychology course) was a golfer.

Bill: This spring would be a good time for the student-supported paper/article you suggest, as the course will host the NCAA Regionals for the fifth time in its history (May 14-16). Within the last five years, the Yale Daily News has published two articles about the course (the older one being the better one).

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2010/09/29/a-classic-american-course/
http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2012/11/07/the-course-at-yale-stands-tests-of-time/

Note that the current coach, Colin Sheehan, knows his golf-course architecture (and is a great guy); he walked NGLA with his squad during the 2013 Walker Cup and pointed out various design features along the way. Here's a feature on him:

http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-golf/spec-rel/062508aab.html

For now, the student body's focus is rightly on this afternoon's Men's Basketball tiebreaker with Harvard at the Palestra in Philadelphia. Boola boola.

[Sven Nilsen]

Ben:

Colin posts here from time to time.

Levin was my little league coach.  Disappointing to hear his lack of interest in the course. 

Sven

[Benjamin Litman]

Thanks for letting me know, Sven. I should have checked; some great posts indeed.

Dick coached Little League?

[DFarron]

If the Yale course or others like it were a Frank Lloyd Wright or a Monet, there would be no limits to what people would do to restore it and keep it alive. But a golf course not so much....
There was a great Ross course in Cleveland, Acacia Country Club. Perfect location in a great neighborhood, accessable to a major interstate. Was a private club steeped in debt and needed to sell. Went to the Cleveland Metro Parks who turned it in to a "walking trail"
I used to get mad every time I drove by, what a waste!

[Tim_Weiman]

Noel,

What's the size of Yale's endowment ?

$ 24,000,000,000

So remind us again, why does the course needs more rounds ?

Pat,

You can forget about Yale's endowment. It isn't going to sports facilities.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill: This spring would be a good time for the student-supported paper/article you suggest, as the course will host the NCAA Regionals for the fifth time in its history (May 14-16). Within the last five years, the Yale Daily News has published two articles about the course (the older one being the better one).

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2010/09/29/a-classic-american-course/
http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2012/11/07/the-course-at-yale-stands-tests-of-time/

Note that the current coach, Colin Sheehan, knows his golf-course architecture (and is a great guy); he walked NGLA with his squad during the 2013 Walker Cup and pointed out various design features along the way. Here's a feature on him:

http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-golf/spec-rel/062508aab.html

For now, the student body's focus is rightly on this afternoon's Men's Basketball tiebreaker with Harvard at the Palestra in Philadelphia. Boola boola.

The articles are fine and largely quite positive about the course. It is nice to hear the course's link to CBM discussed. But hardly a cry to "restore a Monet." And I would not expect the currently-employed golf coach to be the one to lead the charge for changes. Maybe there is a young David Moriarty or Tom MacWood attending Yale... Someone to really put together the full history, support Greg's efforts, but also point out what could be done.

[Benjamin Litman]

Interesting 2012 article about sustainability-based renovations to the course:

http://sustainability.yale.edu/news/golf-course-becomes-even-greener-environmentally-conscious-renovations

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

To echo Noel and what may have been said earlier in the original 2003 thread but I am too lazy to go back and read it all.....

Yale is a genius masterpiece of a golf course and at the same time a maintenance nightmare!!!

Sure, the University could afford to maintain it but their purpose as a corporation trends towards academics first.

Much less expensive to field a basketball team which unfortunately just lost the Ivy championship to their hated rival Harvard by one basket.

[Bill Brightly]

For those of you who did not go back and read the entire thread, I thought I would re-post George Bahto's post. I know that there have been many positive changes to Yale since he wrote this, but I feel it is worth remembering the passion that George had for Yale and Raynor:
   
Re:Is Yale The Greatest Tragedy In Golf?
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2003, 01:12:33 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote
PLAYING THE YALE GOLF COURSE TODAY IS LIKE LOOKING AT THE A GREAT PAINTING THROUGH FROSTED GLASS.

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO DRIVE A 'VETTE WITH 2 SPARK PLUGS WIRES OFF???    

SURE STILL PRETTY COOL AND FUN BUT YOU'RE MISSING THE FULL EXPERIENCE OF A GREAT VEHICLE.

(the caps were not a typo)

[Noel Freeman]

Noel,

What's the size of Yale's endowment ?

$ 24,000,000,000

So remind us again, why does the course needs more rounds ?

Pat, your comment in nonsensical.  The US government takes in how much revenue and can borrow at rates between 0-2.5% and yet have we abolished all poverty, is there a chicken in every pot etc???. The US government owns tons of national parks, forest etc, are they all in great shape? No!  The mission of Yale is to educate its students (its clients) and while the land was bequeathed to Yale all those years ago, I guarantee if New Haven was oh say switched with Greenwich, the club would have been sold or housing now.  Whenever I played Yale, I rarely if ever met students.  The club is populated by locals and people from as far down as NYC who realize what a bargain it is to play there and the fine hospitality there run by Peter Polaski and his staff.  For the money they operate on, the club does a nice job.  Could they use more funding?  Of course.  But institutions are increasingly run to benefit their largesse and perpetuate the employment of people at the university. Do you know anything of the UNION situation at Yale?  It is stifling and makes any attempts to get the cost structure of the club fixed in a free market arena.

Stanford has a huge endowment out here and a nice historic golf course which I believe has been renovated twice now and bears only some resemblance to George Thomas' creation.  No one screams bloody murder there and this is a club you can play 365 days a year and does not allow outside play like Yale.

Yale's restoration cannot be done on the cheap given the scale of the property and in my opinion the need to reseed the WHOLE course.  Yale's turf had many different strains growing on it and needed a complete overhaul to modernize.

I don't see a University spending that money on a game that is increasingly being marginalized and less rounds being played. That is the buttress of my argument on why Yale GC needs to be self-sufficient entity and hope band-aid type cures can address some of its issues.

It is never going to be the V8 Corvette Bahto and all of us would love to see (me as much as anyone).  But maybe it can slowly get to a Turbo V-6..   I just don't see it and just because it is backed by an institution with money, I don't expect it.  Tom Peters once said companies should "Stick to the Knitting" in order to succeed in one of his corporate treatises. I think Yale is more interested in educating and academics.

Oh yeah, I once played golf with the Yale Endowment CIO's son.. I met David Swensen briefly there after.. I don't know if he was a golfer but I'm sure he's aware of the asset and its value.

Maybe I'll be wrong, I love Yale with my full heart but expecting Yale to spend money on the course to truly make it realize its potential is akin to that great quote in Bergman's the 7th Seal--

"Faith is a torment. It is like loving someone who is out there in the darkness but never appears, no matter how loudly you call."

Having faith in Yale's institutional management (not the golf course mgmt and super) to do anything will me like having that faith in god that Max Von Sydow never found..

** Finally kudos to Scott Ramsey and Peter Polaski for making my time at Yale so great.  I miss it everyday I tee it up here in the Bay Area.. It truly is missed and lest anyone forget, I vote it very highly on any ranking list.. I know what it is.--GREAT

Oh and how about the Yale Bowl-- A landmark where many Yale teams play and generate revenue.. And what of it--??

http://www.nhregister.com/sports/20141112/yale-bowl-may-be-receiving-more-restorations

[Patrick_Mucci]

Noel,

What's the size of Yale's endowment ?

$ 24,000,000,000

So remind us again, why does the course needs more rounds ?

Pat,

You can forget about Yale's endowment. It isn't going to sports facilities.

So, Yale plays football in a sandlot and basketball on an outdoor playground ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Noel,

What's the size of Yale's endowment ?

$ 24,000,000,000

So remind us again, why does the course needs more rounds ?

Pat, your comment in nonsensical. Not at all, in fact, it's right on the mark.

 The US government takes in how much revenue and can borrow at rates between 0-2.5% and yet have we abolished all poverty, is there a chicken in every pot etc???. The US government owns tons of national parks, forest etc, are they all in great shape? No!  The mission of Yale is to educate its students (its clients) and while the land was bequeathed to Yale all those years ago, I guarantee if New Haven was oh say switched with Greenwich, the club would have been sold or housing now.  Whenever I played Yale, I rarely if ever met students.  The club is populated by locals and people from as far down as NYC who realize what a bargain it is to play there and the fine hospitality there run by Peter Polaski and his staff.  For the money they operate on, the club does a nice job.  Could they use more funding?  Of course.  But institutions are increasingly run to benefit their largesse and perpetuate the employment of people at the university. Do you know anything of the UNION situation at Yale?  It is stifling and makes any attempts to get the cost structure of the club fixed in a free market arena.

Yale isn't the U.S. Government, it's a private institution.

If the purpose of Yale is solely to educate students, why don't they abolish all sports teams.

Education is not limited do a narrow band in that broadest of spectrums.

Stanford has a huge endowment out here and a nice historic golf course which I believe has been renovated twice now and bears only some resemblance to George Thomas' creation.  No one screams bloody murder there and this is a club you can play 365 days a year and does not allow outside play like Yale.

We're not discussing Stanford, we're discussing the golf course at Yale, a course that's one of the very best in all of golf

Yale's restoration cannot be done on the cheap given the scale of the property and in my opinion the need to reseed the WHOLE course.  Yale's turf had many different strains growing on it and needed a complete overhaul to modernize.

Excuses, excuses.
A restoration would be relatively inexpensive.

I don't see a University spending that money on a game that is increasingly being marginalized and less rounds being played. That is the buttress of my argument on why Yale GC needs to be self-sufficient entity and hope band-aid type cures can address some of its issues.

Golf isn't being marginalized.

As Clinton said, "It's the economy stupid".

Almost every leisure activity had been curtailed due to a poor economy.
Those wanting to predict the future, based on a small sampling, usually don't get it right.

It is never going to be the V8 Corvette Bahto and all of us would love to see (me as much as anyone).  But maybe it can slowly get to a Turbo V-6..   I just don't see it and just because it is backed by an institution with money, I don't expect it.  Tom Peters once said companies should "Stick to the Knitting" in order to succeed in one of his corporate treatises.

I think Yale is more interested in educating and academics.

Since when does education and academics automatically preclude maintaining your facilities ?

Especially when there's ample funds for both.

It's not an either/or proposition.

I don't know if you noticed, but Yale just lost in a playoff for the Ivy League championship.

As to Bahto's dream, If you don't aim for a lofty goal, you'll never hit that goal.
The golf course at Yale just needs an advocate, an angel or rabbi.

Oh yeah, I once played golf with the Yale Endowment CIO's son.. I met David Swensen briefly there after.. I don't know if he was a golfer but I'm sure he's aware of the asset and its value.

Based on his care for that asset, I would think that he's in the dark regarding it's value.

Maybe I'll be wrong, I love Yale with my full heart but expecting Yale to spend money on the course to truly make it realize its potential is akin to that great quote in Bergman's the 7th Seal--

"Faith is a torment. It is like loving someone who is out there in the darkness but never appears, no matter how loudly you call."

Have you ever heard of a fellow named Jimmy Valvano ?
Need I remind you of his most famous quote ?

Having faith in Yale's institutional management (not the golf course mgmt and super) to do anything will me like having that faith in god that Max Von Sydow never found..

Finally, we agree.
But, to alter another famous quote, "All that's needed for disrepair to prevail, is for good men to do nothing.

** Finally kudos to Scott Ramsey and Peter Polaski for making my time at Yale so great.  I miss it everyday I tee it up here in the Bay Area..
It truly is missed and lest anyone forget, I vote it very highly on any ranking list.. I know what it is.--GREAT

If you believe that, if you truly believe that, why wouldn't you be a strident advocate for it's restoration instead of making excuses ?

Oh and how about the Yale Bowl-- A landmark where many Yale teams play and generate revenue.. And what of it--??

Texas Tech hired Tom Doak, Notre Dame hire Coore & Crenshaw for the specific purpose of designing a superior golf course.
Last I looked, they were interested in education and academics.

It's not a mutually exclusive situation.

Yale's administration is just short sided and lazy.

P.S.  One of the problems I have with all of these universities, including Notre Dame, is their never ending expansion.
        They think, like the universe, that's it's unending.
        Raising money for CapEx is relatively easy, and a one time venture, but, the ongoing OpEX is crushing.
        Like your friend, the U.S. Government, universities continue to spend like drunken sailors, with no end in sight.

        The cost of education in the U.S. is exorbitant, unaffordable for most, yet tuition, room & board continue to soar every year.
        Why ?   Because the expansion is never ending, the budgets never static.  It's recklessness cloaked under the guise of improving education.

        Academia is out of touch with the real world.

        Exhibit "A"   The professors at Harvard supported PPACA (Obamacare), but, when their contributions went up, minimally, and their benefits were
        modified, nominally, they screamed bloody murder.   But, the law mandates that those two things had to occur. 
        Like your U.S. Government, Academia is used to everybody else paying for everything, especially expansion and the increasing operating expenses.

End of rant
        costs that follow.

http://www.nhregister.com/sports/20141112/yale-bowl-may-be-receiving-more-restorations

[Tim_Weiman]

Noel,

Just to build on your comments, the problem at Yale is not just with the golf course. It does pertain to other sports facilities. For example, the old Exhibition swimming pool in the Payne Whitney gym was a classic in its day. Really cool. But, today it is outdated and in need of being replaced. Alumni with a swimming background are trying to raise funds, but it doesn't sound like the university has any interest in contributing anything and may even object if an alumnus came forward to write the entire check.

As for the Yale Bowl, it has been quite a long time since I've been there, but I would also bet the university would have zero interest in spending money on the place.

Yes, Notre Dame built a new golf course which I happen to really like. But, what Pat is missing is the environment and the university culture. Notre Dame isn't Yale. They don't resemble each other at all. Not even close.

Wish the Yale golf course was at Princeton. A guy like Ernie Ransome would have made sure it was taken care of.

[Benjamin Litman]

Tim: I can't speak to the swimming pool (except to say that, at least in 2000, it was an amazing, if dank, venue to watch an intense race), but the Bowl was renovated in two phases ending in 2009. Apparently, additional renovations are on the way: http://www.nhregister.com/sports/20141112/yale-bowl-may-be-receiving-more-restorations

As for the golf course, I'm still a bit perplexed at the comments that have been posted here in the last several days. You started this thread in 2003, when the condition of the course was legitimately poor and in need of significant care. But, as you and many others have noted, 2003 was also when Scott Ramsay was brought on. What he has done in the last 12 years has been stellar, so much so that he was awarded Superintendent of the Year--for the entire country--in 2007.

Now all of a sudden people are posting on here as it were 2003 all over again and Scott's work never happened. Why? Just because, in the Golf Week rankings released last week, the course fell 17 spots from 38 to 55 (although, as someone astutely noted, its point total didn't change all that much)?

Unless something awful happened to the course last year (I played a few times the year before, and it was the best I've ever seen it), I think we need to take a deep breath. Could it be even better? Of course. I'd still like to see a few cart paths moved or obscured and a few mounds reintroduced, and I think we'd all like to see the punchbowl green restored on 3. But to gripe as if it were 2003 is not only unjustified, but a slap in Scott Ramsay's face.

What am I missing?

[Colin Sheehan]

First, to answer the original question of this thread title: not even close. Lido and all the other prominent NLE's would go first, or the countless old courses that no longer have their original routing like Inverness or Oak Hill or even where I am now: Seaside/Plantation nines at Sea Island which now form the Seaside Course. Or the totally modern "redos" of old courses that no longer possess any old-flavor and instead have an abundance of sodded bluegrass turf, flattened greens and new looking bunkers with blinding white sand.

One major myth to dispel: Yale doesn't support athletics or facilities. In fact, Yale supports 33 varsity programs. Compare that to the vast majority of colleges. They also contribute an enormous sum each year from the general fund towards athletics. At many major universities, they separate athletics in funds removed from the university and the schools don't contribute a penny and instead receive sizable returns. See the University of Texas for example.

The next myth is Yale doesn't spend any money on the course. Their maintenance budget is in the vicinity of $1.7 Million, which probably puts it in the top 5% in the country. I cannot discuss this topic candidly on this forum, but the university cannot be accused of not spending any money on it.

Yes, I would like to see a different situation and Mr Hoak and I agree completely.  I also love that it is accessible to the students and community and passionate architecture fans around the world. I would like to see fewer rounds (and charge more for unaccompanied play) and raise funds to complete the tree clearing, drainage, irrigation program, turf expansion and a few other projects so this course could place itself where it belongs: in the top 20, but rankings are useless. The course already stands shoulder to shoulder with the finest courses in the country.

Most of you have seen T. Doak's review back in August of 2013. During that twilight round of 11 holes, which he called in his year-end newsletter his second favorite round of that year. I crashed his group on the third green and by the seventh tee we were joined for a few holes by a grad student playing as a single who caught up with us. I'm willing to bet that was one of the few times that year, if at all, that multiple people, one a stranger, just played their way into his group for a few holes. There is a great community at the course that shares the same love of the school, the course and the game and I am grateful for it.

Knowing what I've read and studied about Macdonald, I'm certain that if he came back to earth today, he would enjoy seeing golfers play Yale with its dog-earned/less-than-perfect conditions. He didn't believe in raking bunkers and at Yale that's often the case. He would enjoy seeing people deal with occasional patchy turf and dodgy lies because it's still better than it was back in his day. I'm not sure he would agree with the predictability that comes with the pristine turf at PRC or Creek or all his other designs. Just my thought. I don't have time to expand the thought, but I know he believed in the game being a complete challenge and Yale delivers that in spades.

Thanks.

[Robert Thompson]

Colin: I played Yale with Ian Andrew and Tom Dunne four years ago and it remains one of the most fascinating courses I've had the privilege to play. Conditions were, at least that day, not a huge issue. The course's design is remarkable. Easily Top 50 in the world.

I frankly fail to understand what people don't "get" about Yale, and I'm not convinced throwing a lot more money at conditioning would change that.