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DMoriarty

Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« on: June 25, 2003, 03:17:54 AM »
Some time has passed since the magazine rankings catalyzed the usual and predictable pot shots and sniping regarding whose ratings are better, more accurate, less bias, etc.   I am not trying to start another round of the same, but instead would like to generally impugne all the magazine ratings and reviews.

The problem?  Not enough bias.  No perspective.  No consistent voice.  Too diluted by politeness and/or the views of a bunch of raters about which I could not care less.


Give me good old bias any day.  Give me cutting commentary by those who have a viewpoint and who arent afraid to express it.   That way, I can put a face with an opinion;  really understand from where the review eminates.  Hear the voice and use that as a guide as to how to understand the words.  

That is the way it works in every other medium with which I am familiar.  Why not with golf course architecture?

And what is this nonsense about architects being too bias, and therefore unreliable reviewers?   I should hope they are bias and think highly of their own approach; this is what they do for a living.  They should blast work which offends their sensibilities.  That is what critique is all about.

 So why can't the magazines take it to a more civilized level, where architects and other experts are willing and able to blast and insult inferior work?  We'd all be the better for it.  The reviewers might become better architects.  And it would be much more entertaining as well.

A suggested framework:  When a course of note opens, for example a Doak course,  send Rees Jones to go take a look and tell us what he thinks.  Like an acedemic review.  Critical in the best sense of the word.   If it sucks, write that it sucks, and then tell us why it sucks.  If the course is of enough note, send two architects who come at it from different perspectives.  Send Kidd and Fazio to review the latest Nicklaus design.  Or send Engh and Hanse to review the latest Kidd.  Stir the pot and make them justify their opinions.  

A good review sometimes says as much about the reviewer as it does the subject.  Why not give these guys a chance to teach us something about others' work as well as their own?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 03:19:45 AM by DMoriarty »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2003, 08:48:09 AM »
David- To me, it seems likely that the opposite would happen. The political correctness would still be foremost on these high end archies minds. And, it also seems likely that behind close doors someone is gonna ask Jn, TF, RJ et al what they think of such and such and they will of course give an honest opinion. Wouldn't they?  ;D  Maybe with lesser known architects, this idea would work and be a positive in a multitude of fashions. Firstly, the newer archie could get exposure to more courses than he/she previously had and that could/should translate into better work product from that archie as he/she matures.

I sometimes wonder if being too close to a subject clouds the reality of some in any industry, and especially when attempting to predict the spending habits or aesthetic preferences of a fickle group of a target audience.

Matt_Ward

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2003, 12:27:28 PM »
David M:

Your idea is not possible. Why? The nature of people today is not to speak frankly and candidly -- it's done under the cloak of darkness.

Architects will not be drawn into public forums (one or two may quality as exceptions) and for the most part the nature of many golf / travel publications is to perform the role of cheerleader because of the desire to capture ad $$.

Architects clearly have opinions but the nature of the people in a particular field is not to speak "ill" of another. Think of it like the "wall of blue" often attributed to police personnel.

I do agree that getting people to speak openly and "for the record" is what's needed. But, I've said this before, if you remember the movie "A Few Good Men," when Colonel Jessup says at the end of the film when being cross-examined by the Tom Cruise character -- "you can't handle the truth." Most facilities can't and simply want to be reinforced that their facility / course is one of the very best.

Clearly, when you do get some critical essay / analysis it's often a very small percentage of what one normally finds IMHO. ;)

DMoriarty

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2003, 12:33:25 PM »
David- To me, it seems likely that the opposite would happen. The political correctness would still be foremost on these high end archies minds. And, it also seems likely that behind close doors someone is gonna ask Jn, TF, RJ et al what they think of such and such and they will of course give an honest opinion. Wouldn't they?

Adam-  Maybe your right, but I don't think that this has to be the way it is.  All I am saying is that we should treat these guys like professionals involved in a creative and potentially cutting edge field, and we should expect them to behave as such.   Peer review is a large part of almost all professional endeavors, the reason being that that the peers are in the best position to review the works of each other.  

There might be some some mamby-pamby kissy face at first, but I have a feeling that this won't last much longer than it takes for one of the publications to run a review of a young up-and-comer blasting Doak, Rees, Fazio, or the like.  

Quote
I sometimes wonder if being too close to a subject clouds the reality of some in any industry, and especially when attempting to predict the spending habits or aesthetic preferences of a fickle group of a target audience.

"Clouds the reality. . . .?"  I really dont think this has any thing to do with "reality."   Architects have different approaches, techniques, fundamental beliefs, missions.  Some of you may think that this creates "bias," but I think it makes them architects.  They better have a framework or a "mission statement" or they will probably not produce much of inteterest.  It is their framework or "mission statement" that qualifies them to review others.  

Architects make the perfect reviewers not in spite of their bias, but because of it.  

As for "predicting the spending habits and aesthetic preferences of a fickle group of a target audience," I guess that this might be the mission statement or framework from which some architects work.   If so, I wish they or someone would come out and say it in a reputable review so I can avoid these courses like Monkey Pox.  I just don't see much potential to make any sort of meaningful contribution if all you are trying to accomplish is perfectly pandering to the public.  

But hey thats just my opinion.  I dont care for Thomas Kincaid's work much either, nor do I take him seriously as an artist.  

DMoriarty

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2003, 12:37:36 PM »
David M:

Your idea is not possible. Why? The nature of people today is not to speak frankly and candidly -- it's done under the cloak of darkness.

Matt this might be true of the golf architecture, but it is not true of most other disciplines.  Pick up an academic journal in just about any discipline, and you wont see many punches pulled when it comes to honest and critical analysis.

Plus, you are certainly open and honest, and you havent been totally shunned from the industry, have you?  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2003, 12:52:53 PM »
I have just returned from New York, and have found out that I have become even more biased then before.


Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2003, 04:06:11 PM »
DMoriarty,

I think architects should be allowed to criticise other work but I am uncertain if it needs to be done as a public service, or as you say in a way that everyone benefits.  Writers do critique other writer's work, but I bet if you study them they are pretty soft on each other, with some exceptions.  I think the exceptions are when two cultures clash, when two people from very different philosophical islands collide.  

I can not imagine many hands-on architects having the time to review other architects work and submit copy.  Do you really want your favorite architect leaving their work to others in the company because they have a critics job with a mag?  And how important is it to you in LA to read a Doak review of a Rees course in Florida?  How does that serve the public good?  Does that really enrich your life? I think you know what you get when a Ree course opens.  I mean there is a corporate culture, a creative culture within every company, particularly the big guys and I bet from job to job it shows in a way that you can almost predict what you will see before you even arrive at the course, so what good is an analysis by another architect of the course.  Now it would be helpful if the analysis used the course to better illustrate the big ideas that drive that architect rather than to do a hole by hole critique.  Again, use the critique to illustrate the cultural or creative divides.  I don't get this need for everyone in the country to know all there is to know about all these courses springing up.  I guess it is because like Matt said most of the criticism is in promotion of the course because the course probably bought an ad, or probably paid for the article!!  There is no real criticism available in any magazines.  There is one I can think of where the architect has a guest column which they use to illuminate architecture using their courses, plus they take out ads in the mag, plus the mag critiques their courses!!!  Sweet.  No, Matt I am not talking about you so don't go off on me for not naming names.  

And if you have the opportunity to see and play the course what value does someone else's opinion have over your own opinion?  Again, some value can be gained if that opinion delves into the corporate culture that produces these course, but you never see that type of analysis.  It is not just the particular course that needs a hard look by an expert critic, it is the corporate culture that needs illumination, the big ideas that drive that architect and his/her company.

Why don't you let Doak take your wife for a week and then give you a blow by blow critique of how she was?  Is his opinion going to change your opinion of her?  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2003, 04:59:17 PM »
DMoriarty,

How does one achieve absolute objective analysis if bias isn't eradicated ?

Kelly Blake Moran,

Good post.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2003, 05:07:40 PM »
Why don't you let Doak take your wife for a week and then give you a blow by blow critique of how she was?

That could be the biggest hanging curveball of a straight line I've ever seen! I wouldn't touch it with a ... 10-foot pole.

Seriously: The problem, for most forms of criticism in most publications, is advertising.

We need a publication without any advertising. That would ALLOW qualified writers to say what they thought, without pulling any punches.

Would they do so? I doubt it. Not many would -- because any such qualified writers would be constantly tempted to pull their punches, so as to stay on the good side of course owners.

Ask yourself: How much no-holds-barred movie criticism would we see if the critic had to ask permission from the moviemakers to see the movies?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Andy_Lipschultz

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2003, 05:28:42 PM »
Seriously: The problem, for most forms of criticism in most publications, is advertising.

We need a publication without any advertising. That would ALLOW qualified writers to say what they thought, without pulling any punches.

Why? There are plenty magazines (outside of golf) that take advertising and do reviews of the arts (including architecture) that now and then will absolutely slam the subject.

Give you an example: In my narrow little world: Daily Variety and Hollywood Reporter are the daily papers in the entertainment business. The circulation is only about 40-50,000 and 99 percent of the advertising comes from the movie/tv studios and some of the nastiest, most vicious reviews of movie and television shows have come out of these pages.

Sure, there's been the very,very rare instance of a studio withdrawing ads because of a negative review but it was always the studios that backed down and started taking ads again, not the publications.

Lastly, a reviewer or journalist, above all, must be accurate. Everyone comes into an assignment with bias and it's hard to get around it.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2003, 06:34:51 PM »
Andy --

Two thoughts:

1. The movie and TV studios need those publications far more than golf courses need the golf magazines. That's why the studios cave.

and

2. The critics for those TV and movie magazines have no need to curry favor with those studios in order to keep reviewing their products. That's why those critics don't cave.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2003, 07:26:26 PM »
 :o

Hey what the heck has been going on here at GCA.COM for 100,000 plus posts? chicken salad?

Professional courtesy or a mothers advice,  if you can't say something nice keep your yap shut..

we don't need commercialism lurking under a skin of true gca criticism
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2003, 07:27:38 PM »
I wonder, though: how feasible would it be to start up a small-scale publication (16 pages every month?) called "Golf Course Review" or something like that, featuring no-holds-barred analysis from people who can write and know a thing or two about architecture? By that definition, at least three-quarters of the regular posters here could qualify as contributors - and if space needed to be filled at the end of the issue, Tom Paul could write an essay!

Seriously, it's not *that* bad an idea, is it? I wonder if it would sell...

Cheers,
Darren

Andy_Lipschultz

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2003, 07:49:22 PM »
Andy --

Two thoughts:

1. The movie and TV studios need those publications far more than golf courses need the golf magazines. That's why the studios cave.

and

2. The critics for those TV and movie magazines have no need to curry favor with those studios in order to keep reviewing their products. That's why those critics don't cave.

Dan: In response to #1: The studios need them for six weeks a year; during Academy season. The studios could exist quite nicely without them (since many of the subscribers see the movie for free) but if somone is going to publish something going to Academy members, the studios will be part of it.  That said, I do see your point.

In reponse to #2: A writer could pay (God forbid) to play the course (assuming it's public) and as a reader I would be a lot more comforted knowing the writer has no ties to the subject.
And if it's a private course and the writer is denied access, maybe the writer's "review" could talk about why access was denied.

The state of reviews of golf courses, kinda, sorta, suck for the most part. Is there anyone out there writing reviews that have the verve and polish of movie, book, architecture critics for general interest magazines? Maybe, I'm just dreaming.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 07:50:20 PM by Andy_Lipschultz »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2003, 07:50:56 PM »
David- I was trying to be general about my speculating about industy doctrines(any industry) that are archaic and so ingrained that the real reality takes time to show the establishment it was not completely accurate. ;D Medicine was were I was first exposed to this and the film "lorenzo's Oil exemplifies these medical blinders. As it related to golf, I recently said something to an asst pro about his classicaly designed golf courses greens. His response showed me that while he gets paid as a professional, he has done little to learn the history of the architecture, or even why he should consider recapturing some of his lost greens. That's not the only instance in Golf that I've run up against where the person who is suppose to be a professional person, doesn't really know what the hell they are doing other than exactly what they want to do. After all, it's me me me and all about me(not me , them) ;)

'll ask this: If the ASGCA put out their rankings of all the golf courses in the world, how many would be from designers (alive) not in the association? Now thats a different kind of Bias than the one you expound. Isnt it?

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2003, 08:28:16 PM »
Darren,

What would this magazine offer that Golfclubatlas doesn't already offer?

Tim Weiman

DMoriarty

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2003, 01:21:16 AM »
Kelly Blake Moran:

I think architects should be allowed to criticise other work but I am uncertain if it needs to be done as a public service, or as you say in a way that everyone benefits.  Writers do critique other writer's work, but I bet if you study them they are pretty soft on each other, with some exceptions.  I think the exceptions are when two cultures clash, when two people from very different philosophical islands collide.

I agree that critiques are a good way of identifying and exploring the clash of cultures.  It seems to me that golf architecture is long overdue for this type of "colliding" critique.  

But peer review is certainly not limited to "writers" and practitioners/critics are very seldom easy on each other.   Scientists, academics, doctors, lawyers, philosophers, sociologists, and those in just about every other profession which is potentially cutting edge continually face candid public criticism from their colleagues.  It is expected and welcome and seen as a necessary tool by which the genre is advanced.   Sure they aren't necessarily outwardly rude to each other, but their criticisms can be pretty biting nonetheless.  And this isnt just criticisms from different schools.  Some of the best discussions in any genre involve hashing out the details even when many of the basic tenants are common.  

Quote
I can not imagine many hands-on architects having the time to review other architects work and submit copy.  Do you really want your favorite architect leaving their work to others in the company because they have a critics job with a mag?
 

This seems a cop-out to me.  I expect that architects have a vested interest in knowing what is out there if only to better perform their own work.  Also there are a lot of architects out there.  If 12 architects wrote reviews for a magazine, that would only be 1 course a year.  If 24 wrote reviews, that is only one course every two years.  I don't think that one review every year or two is much to expect from those who are supposed to be at the cutting edge of their profession.  

Plus, I would think it would be in the interest for aspiring architects to write reviews if only to give them access to an audience and increase their name recognition.  But you would be better situated to comment on this than me.  

Quote
And how important is it to you in LA to read a Doak review of a Rees course in Florida?  How does that serve the public good?  Does that really enrich your life? I think you know what you get when a Ree course opens.  I mean there is a corporate culture, a creative culture within every company, particularly the big guys and I bet from job to job it shows in a way that you can almost predict what you will see before you even arrive at the course, so what good is an analysis by another architect of the course.

How important is it to me?  Who cares?  I am not talking about me but about the golfers, developers, club members/ potential club members, and anyone who might pick up a magazine.  The vast majority of these people have either never heard of Rees Jones or (1) know him as the "Open Doctor" and (2) have only heard what the television/magazine commentators have said about him as the "Open Doctor."  I doubt that this creates much of a complete picture of his work.  So I think a candid Doak review of a Rees Jones' course would be enlightening to a much broader audience than just me.   As for me, I'd read it and probably buy the magazine, even if I wasnt going to be on a plane.    

 
Quote
Now it would be helpful if the analysis used the course to better illustrate the big ideas that drive that architect rather than to do a hole by hole critique.  Again, use the critique to illustrate the cultural or creative divides.
 
I agree but you are never going to get this until people start being frank and backing up their opinions.  

Quote
I don't get this need for everyone in the country to know all there is to know about all these courses springing up.  I guess it is because like Matt said most of the criticism is in promotion of the course because the course probably bought an ad, or probably paid for the article!!  There is no real criticism available in any magazines.  There is one I can think of where the architect has a guest column which they use to illuminate architecture using their courses, plus they take out ads in the mag, plus the mag critiques their courses!!!  Sweet.  No, Matt I am not talking about you so don't go off on me for not naming names.  

I didnt say every course, I said courses of note.  I think there have been enough courses of note built in the last 100 years to keep us busy enough so that we need not worry about "every course springing up" for quite some time.  

I know there is very little real criticism in the magazines.  That is what this post is about.  As for the magazines being beholden to the courses, I dont understand this and am not really convinced that this need be the case.  But that might be another thread all together.  

Quote
And if you have the opportunity to see and play the course what value does someone else's opinion have over your own opinion?  Again, some value can be gained if that opinion delves into the corporate culture that produces these course, but you never see that type of analysis.  It is not just the particular course that needs a hard look by an expert critic, it is the corporate culture that needs illumination, the big ideas that drive that architect and his/her company.
 

I may choose to spend my money elsewhere if a review convinces me that a particular course or particular architect is not my cup of tee.  I certainly don't have the resources to play them all and decide for myself, nor do I have the knowledge.  I want golf to be a learning experience, where someone gives me a helping hand understanding what I should be looking for in a course.  I need a golf docent to appreciate the art I am viewing/playing.

As for your opinion that understanding the "corporate culture" and "big picture" is the key to understanding modern architecture, this sounds like the makings of an interesting review, and it sounds like you have the knowledge and passion to write it.  

Quote
Why don't you let Doak take your wife for a week and then give you a blow by blow critique of how she was?  Is his opinion going to change your opinion of her?  

One of my beginning tenants is that it is best to read the review through the personality/style of the reviewer.  If I read this sentence alone I would conclude that the writer is an oafish boor who lacks the decorum to avoid tasteless analogies involving my wife.  If I had come to this conclusion, I wouldn't give you the courtesy of responding to such a disrespectful display.  But, since I am somewhat familiar with you and your writing style from past posts, I will assume that your words were merely thoughtless and that no insult or disrespect was meant.  That being said, I'd appreciate it if you leave my family out it your colorful analogies in the future.  
_____________________________

Andy and Dan, I am starting another post regarding the link between advertising and reviews.
______________________________________

Darren, I'd like to see that, but you might you'll need more pages if you plan on TEPaul contributing.  

I'd prefer to see something more mainstream though, so as to reach out to those that don't know what the hell we are talking about.  
« Last Edit: June 26, 2003, 02:45:58 AM by DMoriarty »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2003, 03:58:05 AM »
There is a long history in the arts of the artist as critic.  

In addition to being a great poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge was the preeminent Shakespeare scholar of his or probably any time and wrote extensive literary criticism.  Oscar Wilde probably thought of himself as a critic more than a playwright and wrote the book, "The Critic as Artist" ('Creation is always behind the age, it is Criticism that leads us.')  

In architecture Philip Johnson, Hermann Muthesius and Charles Jencks were influential critics as well as architects.  In film Jean-Luc Godard, Francois Truffaut, Eric Rohmer and Peter Bogdanovich were film critics before becoming celebrated filmmakers but then continued their criticism and journalism after becoming established directors.  In the art world Fairfield Porter was both an influential critic and a great painter. In music an example of a prominent composer and critic was Virgil Thomson. And so on.

My point is that throughout history art has been advanced through the critiques and responses of other artists even if this process sometimes got heated and rivalries developed.  And as David Moriarty points out the sciences are also dependent on peer review for its advances and theories.

Golf course architecture is certainly creative but is it art in the sense that building architecture can be?  Or is golf course architecture just a trade or a craft? Should we even bother to look at it critically or is it all good?  How can we expect great courses to be built if bad or uninspired work is not pointed out?

Kelly Blake Moran,
If you think writers are pretty soft on each other in their criticism see Hemingway vs. Stein, Wolfe vs. Updike and Mailer, McCarthy vs. Hellman, Nabokov vs. Wilson, Buckley vs. Vidal, Twain vs. Harte, etc...
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2003, 07:25:04 AM »
Darren,

What would this magazine offer that Golfclubatlas doesn't already offer?

Um, what do magazines offer that the internet doesn't already offer? By this logic, why would anyone go out and buy Doak's Confidential Guide when they can come here? Granted, the general standard of writing isn't as good as Doak's; it's not always easy to find what you're looking for; you can't take this website on an airplane with you or to the club to show to your friends; people casually browsing a magazine rack at a newsstand aren't going to randomly stumble across Golfclubatlas.com; it takes hours for those of us without broadband internet access to download all the pretty pictures...need I go on?

This website is fundamentally for people already interested in golf course architecture. The magazine I'm thinking of would be for people interested in playing and reading about good golf courses (and would like to know which ones are good and which ones aren't), which is a much wider audience. People here talk all the time about spreading the word and educating the general public about architecture - but without a vehicle for doing so, how is that ever realistically going to happen? If I may make a strained analogy, it's a bit like the difference between Marx and Lenin - the former came up with a bunch of radically different ideas about economics and sociology which weren't exactly widely known, whereas the latter found a way of putting them into practice and thereby made "Communism" a household name. Wouldn't it be nice to take some of this treasure trove of material here at GCA and make it more readily available to the public, or better yet to write new stuff and more intelligently gear it for the needs and wants of the general public? (You might even make some money that way, which really would be the best of all possible worlds...)

Cheers,
Darren

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2003, 08:57:51 AM »
DMoriarty,

I think you are pursuing a worthy idea and maybe Darren has the upstart capital to get it going, so good things could come from your idea.  Criticism is a good thing.  However, in the few nongolf mags in which I read reviews they always seem soft.  I mean essays that are designated as reviews.  Now there have been profiles like in the New Yorker and in the course of the profile the criticism can get heated, either the profiled dishing it out on others in their profession, or someone being interviewed about the person being profiled.  Actually, in art mags, and architecture mags, I do not think you see too many of the cutting edge professionals reviewing others work like you do in literature.

I may be an oafish boor that lacks decorum, but you should know my Doak/wife comment was an analogy that is not even close to you personally because I do not know you, do not know if you are married, so in no way could it be personal.  What happened to the bite and passion you expressed in your first post, where you used words like "sucks"?  I think there are some developers/architects whom invest much of their creative and personal energies into a project, whether you agree with it or not, they may invest more of themselves into a golf course than they do into their families and you are advocating someone taking a blowtorch to it, hopefully in a fair way, and you are offended by my Doak/wife analogy.  As someone once said you can offend my wife but you better not offend my golf course.  While some of us have some perspective about home and work, your no holds bar approach to golf course criticism could cut very deeply, and personally, and possibly financially, so once the gloves come off don't all of a sudden get on a high horse and place yourself above the mud slinging.  This is no time to be thin skinned.

And you want some upstart no name architect to use this forum to get their name out there?  You mean you can make a name for yourself in the golf architecture business based upon the insightfullness and wisdom of your critiques?  You mean all of this working in obscurity has been a waste of time when I should have been sharpening my writing skills.

Someone mentioned Phillip Johnson, and Jencks.  Wouldn't you consider these second rate architects? So did Mies, Le Corb., Wright, Gerhy provde official critiques of other architects?  I am curious, not making a point, but there might be a point here where in other professions the official critiques are always by the upstarts or the second or third tier professionals while the top tier professionals avoid this avenue.  you may only hear there critiques of others in interviews.

ForkaB

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2003, 09:16:30 AM »
Dave

This is hypothetically a good idea, but one which fails the test of practicality.  What evidence do I have for this opinion you (might) say?  Well........this forum.  Some of the most passionate and informed observers of and participants in GCA spend inordinate amounts of time on here, and few if any are willing to construtively criticise other courses (or hear constructive criticisms of THEIR course) except sporadically.  And, what happens when this happens?  Well, afficionados spend bandwidth trying to dump guano on those brave enough to ask honest questions and learn about why some things work for some people and some things don't work for others.  At least, IMHO..........

Andy_Lipschultz

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2003, 09:24:28 AM »
However, in the few nongolf mags in which I read reviews they always seem soft.  I mean essays that are designated as reviews

When the readers' money is at stake, reviews can and should be tougher. A movie, a book, music, theatre, car and yes, a golf course are asking for money and the critic is there to let the readers know what exactly they will be getting for their $.

Reviewing Frank Gehry's latest can fall into the meandering essay and softer critique.

Babbitt

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2003, 12:22:41 PM »
You mean you can make a name for yourself in the golf architecture business based upon the insightfullness and wisdom of your critiques?  

Didn't Tom Doak do just that? Didn't more people in the golf architecture business know him from his "Confidential Guide" and "Anatomy" books than from his courses in the early part of his career?

By the way I am not married so disrespecting my wife will have no effect on me.

DMoriarty

Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2003, 01:09:55 PM »
Let me get this straight . . . you are defending your use of my wife in your analogy?  And portraying me as on a "high horse" for asking you leave my family out of this?  Perhaps my giving you the benefit of the doubt above was a mistake.  

You really think your wife analogy fairly and accurately depicts how architects feel about their courses?  If so, you architects are a sorry lot.  Call me thin skinned if you like, but please leave my family out of this.  

But since you are so comfortable with the wife analogy, let's follow through with it using your wife and/or family.  If you dont have a wife, feel free to substitute your significant other, mother, sister, daughter, or whomever you feel is appropriate.  

Do you open your wife to the general public for all to play?  Do you make presentations to potential investors about how your wife would be perfect for them?  . . . About how she is the perfect blend of the natural and man made?  About how she is fun for the beginners yet challenging for advanced players?  Do you hope that enough raters will play your wife so that she will gain critical acclaim and you will get more work?    Does your wife contain features that allow diverse foursomes to all enjoy?   How much do you charge for your wife?  As her reputation grows, will you charge more?  Do you worry your wife will show signs of wear with repeat play?  Have you ever thought of associating with a professional so your wife will become more desirable and well known to the general public?  Ever thought about writing a book about your wife?  How much time to you spend on your wife, compared to the amount of time your associates spend on your wife?  

Our families are different from our careers, or at least they should be.  When professionals charge money for their services and design for public consumption (or for members of a club) they should expect that others will take a critical view of these services, and will comment when the services do or don't pass muster.  This is the way professions work.  Will this sometimes hurt feelings?  Most likely.  Might it encourage better work in the future?  I hope so.  

And you want some upstart no name architect to use this forum to get their name out there?  You mean you can make a name for yourself in the golf architecture business based upon the insightfullness and wisdom of your critiques?  You mean all of this working in obscurity has been a waste of time when I should have been sharpening my writing skills.

In this forum?  No.  But if an upstart professional has something worthy to say about golf course architecture, then I want to hear what he has to say, preferably in a magazine.  

Take Tom Doak.  I loved his books and commentary without ever seeing one of his courses.  But Tom had something to say.  I liked his philosophy.  I also thought his words incredibly confident (okay, arrogant) for someone of whom I had never heard, and I was very curious to see if he could back up his words with his work.  

As for your questions about art and architecture, I dont know much about professional critiques of architects or art except that advancements and movements are almost always reactions and/or juxtopositions to what has come before.  This itself is a form of criticism, I guess.  

In other reputuable professions the criticism is direct and to the point.  Pick up any journal or review on law, politics, philosophy, history, medicine, science, etc, and you will see neither pulled punches nor personal insults-- Dare I say you will find no wife analogies.  Just honest criticism.  
« Last Edit: June 26, 2003, 01:12:25 PM by DMoriarty »

Tim_Weiman

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Re:Rating and Reviewing Courses: Bring on the Bias.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2003, 01:17:50 PM »
Kelly Blake Moran:

Your post reminds me of one of my sister's high school friends, a beautiful girl who did a fair amount of lingerie modeling in major fashion magazines.

Though Katie never became a household name, she knew the less glamourous side of the modeling business.

"Here's how it works", Katie once explained, "all these girls come in dressed in underwear and they have only a few seconds to impress......most are quickly dismissed.....it is not glamourous at all.....it is pretty tough....I like the money but really it sucks".

So, I wonder if golf architects face the same kind of thing. Despite all the work that goes into a project, a critic might quickly sum it all up by saying "it sucks".

That's life, I guess.
Tim Weiman