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Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are we all crazy?
« on: May 18, 2012, 11:58:03 AM »
I sit on the board of a suburban Philly golf club. During a meeting last night it came up that our 7th green needs to be gassed and regrassed. We had a good discussion and I asked it the contours of the original Flynn green would be kept, changed slightly with the speed, but keep the overall flavor of the green. I was looked at like I came from Mars. The majority believe since our club is a mix of Flynn and Cornish it really makes no difference what we do with the original Flynn green. I was shocked.

Further discussions centered around the " fun" of playing a course. That it made no difference if designed by Flynn or Wilson or Chief Halftown or Sally Starr ( philly reference). No one cares as long as it is fun. So I asked maybe the fun comes from a good design. To which i was told no.

So does good design mean more fun?? Or am I crazy for really caring?? Are the folks in this treehouse the only sane ones that care about architecture or are we all batshit crazy as I was told last night?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 12:10:10 PM »
Ed, from time to time we fondly refer to ourselves as nerds or dorks.   It's hard not to feel that way when you see your enthusiastic comments only euthanizing yet another friend.  I was asked to make some short off-the-cuff comments at last year's King's Putter event at Bandon (don't ask me why).    My main  point was that rather than dorks, we are the lucky few to whom golf architecture really matters and as such we are called to be good stewards of golf courses and their architecture when the situation presents itself.  Preaching to myself, I challenged the group to always elevate discourse on the subject.    Some embrace that as a mission.  Others of us as a part-time avocation.  Your response is up to you.

But, you are by no means crazy.  It matters.

Mike

Quote
If we weren't all crazy
We would go insane.
- Jimmy Buffet
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 12:11:22 PM »
Those who've served on Boards are right now trying to decide if it's worth it to type their own examples.

It might be fun to have a contest--most idiotic golf course-related comment spoken by a Board or Green Committee member.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 12:18:03 PM »
What proof do you have that a Flynn green is better for your course and its members?  I may buy an antique bed but I will not sleep on an antique mattress.  The fault of purity is that it reduces your options.  Most people become purists because they are afraid of the unknown.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 12:19:24 PM »
When one's point of view/preferences represent perhaps 1% of a group they can considered:

1. Enlightened
2. Crazy
3. Both

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 12:39:13 PM »
JM - Here's a candidate.  French Creek's only trees are, by and large, only on the perimeter of the golf course.  I can think of only one tree that really comes into play, and you need to be in a very odd position to get there.

About three years after the course opens, a guy suggests that we plant trees along the fairways to make the course prettier.

We looked at each other and just shrugged.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2012, 12:43:34 PM »
Quote
Further discussions centered around the " fun" of playing a course. That it made no difference if designed by Flynn or Wilson or Chief Halftown or Sally Starr ( philly reference). No one cares as long as it is fun. So I asked maybe the fun comes from a good design. To which i was told no.

Ed, I don't read into this that any effort was made to define what 'fun' means to these people.  Do they consider the fun aspect is really the social aspect, and the course design makes little impact on the ambiance of the club?  Do they feel that fun means 'perfect' or 'ideal' turf conditions and so long as they can whack their ball anywhere, find it and whack it again is more their ideal, than the actual strategy or playing characteristics of the course as a puzzle or foe to be challenged?  

That green that needs re-grassing... do the contours have readily understandable correlation to the overall significance of the hole as it is played, and pin positions have meaning; or is it rather random, not recognizable as a matter of contour to approach strategy?  Just because it is a Flynn design, seems to me that it doesn't mean it has specifically constructed design genius built in.  Didn't the ODG build a few non-descript and uninspired greens and surrounds now and then, that aren't any big whoop?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2012, 12:48:17 PM »
JM - Here's a candidate.  French Creek's only trees are, by and large, only on the perimeter of the golf course.  I can think of only one tree that really comes into play, and you need to be in a very odd position to get there.

About three years after the course opens, a guy suggests that we plant trees along the fairways to make the course prettier.

We looked at each other and just shrugged.


You only shrugged.Think of all the Boards who have said "great idea" and planted an arboretum's worth of trees down every fairway.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 12:55:09 PM »
Just because famous architect designed a course, doesn't mean it cannot be improved.  Look how long Ross worked at Pinehurst.  I just don't like it when someone makes a change and it looks/feels out of place.

Paul
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 01:02:52 PM »
I think Barney's comment was directed at a doctrinaire position that can be summarized as holding that just because one of the ODG's designed something, it should (must?) be preserved.  Absent a view that the particular course is worth preserving as a museum piece, that position is difficult to defend in a vacuum.  But the problem is that many of those wishing to change older courses do not have the talent/vision of the original architects and they make the course less rather than more interesting.  In my own experience, as many of you know, I have been heavily involved at our club which is a Colt & Allison circa 1921 with some changes and a sympathetic renovation in 2001.  We have a persistent member who insists that we should be making architectural changes on a regular basis because"any course can be improved".  He has been unable to answer my response which loosely phrased (and made suitable for family reading) suggests that it is even easier to make an excellent course worse and thus one must be very careful in altering the vision of an outstanding architect to follow what may be a momentary impulse to make the course "more fun", or "harder", or "better".  The really good courses are precisely that because they are designed to present problems that withstand the test of time.  For the truly great players, equipment has made that test more difficult but for most of us, good design has remained relevant.  Thus tampering should be viewed with suspicion.  But a "bad" hole is a bad hole regardless of who designed it.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 01:36:24 PM by SL_Solow »

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 01:18:04 PM »
Ed

  You are not crazy at all.  Think of all of the clubs that are known for their terrific courses be they golden age, modern or post-modern.  One of the things that stands out to me about many successful clubs with outstanding courses is that the membership (or at least some significant portion of the membership) see themselves as stewards of the club, its course and the history.  It helps to build a greater sense of community and purpose. Attempting to preserve or restore architectural elements are part of this sense of stewardship.

 On the other hand, many clubs have done a poor job of building that sense of common purpose, stweardship etc.  In my experience, many of the members of such clubs do not see themselves as members of an organization but, instead, consumers.  Their club might as well be a Marriott resort.  Where that attitude is prevalent, you tend to see a different approach from the members with respect to the manner in which they treat their course and one another for that matter.

I tend to believe that clubs where a sense of stewardship and common purpose exist and are passed on to new members will tend to withstand many of the challenges facing clubs in the current climate because the members sense of attachment is beyond that of child to playground. They are emotionally invested and attempt to preserve something bigger than simply a facility for recreation.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 01:50:57 PM »
This reminds me of a great quote from Bruce Lietzke.

During the 2002 Canadian Senior Open at my home club, Lietzke was asked what he thought of 'this Donald Ross gem' (or something like that). He responded, 'I don't care if it was designed by Donald Ross or Donald Duck, it's a good course.'
jeffmingay.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 02:00:05 PM »
Ed - I'm stealing from myself from another thread, to say that I think we're crazy in this sense only: in that we tend to focus on and praise individual architectural features, as if those features were -- in and of themselves -- important and determinative (of quality, of fun, of interest). I'd suggest that this focus on features (by architects and afficianados alike) has probably caused and produced more bad and copy-cat architecture than it has good. (On top of that, the need for new courses to 'open' strong; the bi-weeekly rankings, the top 100 lists; the huge money involved in building and promoting and playing new courses; the glossy photos -- all of these factors further encourage architects and golfers alike to focus on and praise the features in and of themselves.)  But I think no one really/actually experiences those features in that way, but instead experiences and enjoys architecture in terms of its effects and affects, in a kind of dialetic in which an individual golfer with certain skills interacts with architectural features on a given day under fluid meteorological and maintenance conditions and with each element (the architectural elements being only one of them) experienced as affects/effects -- as if all around us as it were, on the periphery as oppossed to directly in front of us. In short: as long as we keep staring at architecture like prehistoric cavemen first stared at the first fire, I'd say, yes, we're a little crazy.

Peter

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2012, 02:04:54 PM »
I hate change.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Dance with the one who brung ya.  etc., etc.  People like me who fight every new idea tooth and nail are the crazy ones.

Recently, on a much minor note, we were given new pin sheets.  After the round the pro asked what I thought and I gave him the best most answer I could.  "Don't ask me, I hate everything new."  Turns out that after a couple of weeks I like the change.

The key is to be honest with yourself when presented with change to something you have grown to love. Most likely it isn't all that you have made it out to be.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2012, 02:07:12 PM »
What proof do you have that a Flynn green is better for your course and its members?  I may buy an antique bed but I will not sleep on an antique mattress.  The fault of purity is that it reduces your options.  Most people become purists because they are afraid of the unknown.

John,
 How do you show that?? How do you prove a green adds value?? I may love it, you may hate it. I love right left shots, you may hate them. Please help me to understand your point.

ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2012, 02:09:37 PM »
Quote
Further discussions centered around the " fun" of playing a course. That it made no difference if designed by Flynn or Wilson or Chief Halftown or Sally Starr ( philly reference). No one cares as long as it is fun. So I asked maybe the fun comes from a good design. To which i was told no.

Ed, I don't read into this that any effort was made to define what 'fun' means to these people.  Do they consider the fun aspect is really the social aspect, and the course design makes little impact on the ambiance of the club?  Do they feel that fun means 'perfect' or 'ideal' turf conditions and so long as they can whack their ball anywhere, find it and whack it again is more their ideal, than the actual strategy or playing characteristics of the course as a puzzle or foe to be challenged?  

That green that needs re-grassing... do the contours have readily understandable correlation to the overall significance of the hole as it is played, and pin positions have meaning; or is it rather random, not recognizable as a matter of contour to approach strategy?  Just because it is a Flynn design, seems to me that it doesn't mean it has specifically constructed design genius built in.  Didn't the ODG build a few non-descript and uninspired greens and surrounds now and then, that aren't any big whoop?  

Sure he did, as they all did. This green just fits the hole ,imho , perfectly. it allows run ups for the low ball player. It readily accepts a properly played mid iron. Visually it looos nice, when we get the grass to grow on it.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 02:15:14 PM »
What proof do you have that a Flynn green is better for your course and its members?  I may buy an antique bed but I will not sleep on an antique mattress.  The fault of purity is that it reduces your options.  Most people become purists because they are afraid of the unknown.

John,
 How do you show that?? How do you prove a green adds value?? I may love it, you may hate it. I love right left shots, you may hate them. Please help me to understand your point.

ed

Ed,

I'm sure Redanman has played your course.  If he told you it was a poorly designed green would you believe him? 

One other thing, if the green has a history of not growing grass it may be poorly designed for that very reason.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 08:16:46 PM »
How's it go?

Pearls and swines?  Something like that.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 09:37:12 PM »
What proof do you have that a Flynn green is better for your course and its members?  I may buy an antique bed but I will not sleep on an antique mattress.  The fault of purity is that it reduces your options.  Most people become purists because they are afraid of the unknown.

John,

I am not sure what is happening to me but you have me drinking the Kool Aid: I agree with you one hundred per cent.

Bob

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2012, 11:01:20 AM »
Any club/course/person that treats their course as Art, values it higher than those who don't. Respecting your artist, with thoughtful design changes, not whimsical one's, is one way to show, and, earn respect. Plus, It keeps the spirituality, and uniqueness of a place, alive. The Nature Faker deserves his due, until, and unless a certain specific, can be proved flawed.


 

 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2012, 04:10:05 PM »
I would remind you that Flynn did not only design the green - he designed the entire hole and when he designed the green it was done with consideration of how the entire hole would play.  Golf has evolved since it was originally done but that doesn't mean that the design of the hole or the green has to be changed.  I think an important factor which you have left out is how the green will play with the new grass.  Most likely, it will play faster so the contours have to be reexamined to see how they will work with the increased green speed.  I just wonder how you can regrass some greens and not others and somehow maintain the same green speeds.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we all crazy?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2012, 04:29:37 PM »
The green in question has severe goose grass issues and Bermuda on the collar and bunker wall. Half the green is nice the other  half is a mess.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.