Pete Dye affirmational thread -- he's right: 3 green at SGC *was* moved

[Mark Bourgeois]

"Pete Dye seems to think the original 3rd green was moved back some..." -- via Tom Paul, here:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32115.0.html

3rd green, 1953 v 1964:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC3green.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

It wasn't moved back, to the west, it appears to have been extended or shifted to the south

[Tyler Kearns]

Pat,

The 1964 aerial pretty clearly shows a new green SSW of the original green depicted in the 1953 aerial. I don't see any evidence of an extension and would consider this more than a shift. I'm sure the members wanted to continue playing on 18 greens, and a move of this nature would allow for construction and grow-in to proceed without disturbing member play.

TK 

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I see in an earlier thread I said I did not agree with Pete that #3 green was moved. I now take that back and would like to amend it at this point to simply say I just don't know. Obviously some really good aerial compare and contrast (if the images are available) is going to tell the real story.

I did have a very interesting conversation last night with Pete Dye about Seminole but we did not get into that one. I'm beginning to gather from Pete that his knowledge of Seminole may go back earlier than I ever thought, and maybe a lot earlier. Sometimes I get a bit confused about Pete and Seminole because I think too much about when he joined the club which was obviously a whole lot later than when he became quite familiar with its architecture and its architectural evolution. I'm also beginning to suspect there was a whole lot bigger Pete Dye/Dick Wilson connection than most all of us have been aware of before.

There was a pretty small and very tight little community of good golfers down there around Palm Beach and Delray back then. I know it because my father was part of it all. I can still name most all of them.

[JC Jones]

Tom,

If you recall, we have spoken to a great extent about what we believe to be the work done at Seminole.  I think what Mark is doing is very helpful in getting to the bottom of the architectural history of the course.

As you know, I had a quite a long phone conversation with Robert von Hagge about 6-8 months before he died.  The entire conversation was about the work done at Seminole by Dick Wilson because RvH was Dick Wilson's associate at the time and was the one doing the work with DW at Seminole.

In that conversation, he explained that other than the 18th, no other greens were touched by DW other than to re-grass them as they had been neglected during the war.  The explanation for not touching the greens was that Chris Dunphy said they were "sacrosanct" and not to be touched.  After looking at aerials, I am of the belief that the work of DW at Seminole other than the 18th, has been greatly exaggerated.

So, if the 3rd green was moved, I would have to guess that it happened after DW's involvement at Seminole.

[TEPaul]

JC:

As I said, I just don't know what to say right now about any movement of the 3rd green. Pete told me quite a long time ago that the 3rd green was moved but I do not remember him saying who moved it or him mentioning Dick Wilson. I guess I can always call him again and ask him but I don't feel like bugging him on it. Pete is sending me something in the mail about how the greens were changed. So after I get that maybe I'll talk to him again about Seminole.

I just love that guy. He and Alice are just so down to earth. It's like back in the old days---you call them and they actually answer the phone rather than just using caller ID or messages and whatnot which everyone else in the world seems to do these days.

I said: "What're you doing Pete?" He said: "I'm washing the dishes." I said: "I like to do that too; it think it's meditative." He said: "No shit, do you really?"

Pete's got some wonderful old stories of he and his friends. Every time I see him (not very often) he reminds me of sitting in my parents house with Dad. There was just the two of them and the phone just kept ringing and ringing. Dad was sitting right next to the phone and finally Pete couldn't take it anymore and he screamed: "Jimmy, for Christsake, would you please answer the damn telephone?" Dad just looked over at him and said: "It doesn't sound like it's for me."

[Mark Bourgeois]

There are other ways to observe the 3rd green over time:

1) Carousel -- http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html. To zoom in, hit "command" and "+" buttons on your keyboard.

2) Slider -- three sliders comparing photos: http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html

Mark

[TEPaul]

Mark:

For starters, I think it's time for me to reread the recent Seminole history book. I can't recall right now who ran that club or how at any particular time in the old days. I would like to know when Alan Ryan became the president and what that meant to the era of Chris Dunphy. I remember Mr. Dunphy, he was always there, every single time I went back in the old days. I have a feeling he sort of ran the place for the club's real principles like E.F. Hutton and Mr. MacLean. I think Dunphy may've actually worked for Mr. Maclean. William Flynn built Mr MacLean a private golf course on his estate in DC, by the way. The reason I mention this kind of thing is the financial records can often be a key to when things were done and by whom on the golf course. But I have a feeling with a club like that one and those kinds of people back then that when something needed to be done they may not have assessed the membership or entered any project into the club's books and financials---one of them might have just opened his checkbook and cut a check.