Photo Tour - Salish Cliffs, Shelton WA, Gene Bates (all holes posted)

[Mark Saltzman]

Let's get rid of the anti-strategic aiming bunkers on 4 and 5.

Rich, I think you posted the third hole twice 

[Richard Choi]

Personally, I don't dislike the first tee shot as much as others, as it hides nothing, but how far is it to carry the tree ?

The cart paths sure look ugly, but besides the look, they seem to act as a hazard on the 3rd hole?! If the hole plays 200+ yards, most players are unlikely to hit an acurate shot, and the safer side seems to be on the right hand side.. that is right where the cart path is located (20ft from the green?), meaning that a large number of shots would land on the cart path with balls bouncing wherever they like... a shame, the course otherwise looks quite interesting.

Most people will have a hard time carrying the tree as it is so tall (and pretty wide). I went over it by hitting a drive that went about 290. The only real way to avoid it would be to go left.

The problems with the cart paths at Salish is that anything just outside of the path is lost ball. There is no real buffer between the path and the junk. If you hit the cart path, it is almost surely a lost ball (which I did a couple of times).

[Brent Carlson]

For those keeping track - this is the second drop shot par three.  Take a closer look at the green.  There are some fun pin positions out there; especially the one in the photos.

6th Hole
Par 3 – 168, 157, 130, 125, 108 – Hdcp 17

Flyover
http://youtu.be/kqx7RxftZYc

A little palette cleanser of a hole to keep you going after pretty tough openers. To me, it is just a shorter version of the first par 3.


Even though it is short, there are enough movement on the green to provide pretty devilish pin placements.

[Richard Choi]

7th Hole
Par 4 – 448, 371, 351, 346, 300 – Hdcp 5

Flyover
http://youtu.be/umk3yHM8bPA

If you like trees, you will LOVE this tee shot (the back tee).


Thankfully, mere mortals won’t have to hit that tee shot as all tees other than the very back ones are in front of the trees. Not sure exactly what the bunker on the right is for other than to frame the fairway as carrying it gives you no advantage.


Congratulations you carried the fairway bunker, now just carry another one by the green.


Challenging the far bunker on the left will give you a better angle.


Looking back from the green. If you think the trees make the hole look narrow, that is no illusion.

[Richard Choi]

8th Hole
Par 4 – 601, 576, 550, 508, 440 – Hdcp 1

Flyover
http://youtu.be/iwyjrfgudDE

A meaty 3 shotter that wraps around the trees to the left. In my opinion, the best par 5 on the course. Once again, you have a short bunker on the left that you must carry and the far bunker that you really cannot reach frames the tee shot.


Short balls to the left will leave you in a skinny fairway with the blind 2nd shot.


A healthy drive in the middle of the fairway leaves you with a blind approach to the green (which is not reachable). The smart play is to lay up short of the trees up ahead.


Most approach inside 130 yards or so will give you a peek to the green.


The green is tilted back to front with an open front.

[Richard Choi]

9th Hole
Par 3 – 409, 380, 355, 294, 228 – Hdcp 7

Flyover
http://youtu.be/kiMx6MlNXQg

Up until now, it was a pretty uneventful, if frustrating round as my partner in crime, Brent Carlson, and I were waiting on every tee for 5 to 10 min as we were on pace for 5 hours+ round. But things were about to get interesting.

I hooded my drive badly just short of the rocks on the left. Brent hit a draw that went toward the bunker just short of the water left.



I walked up and hit a layup just beyond the bunker on the left, during which Brent searched for his ball. By the time I walked up to my ball, Brent dropped a ball and hit a layup short of the green. Brent got into the cart which was parked just off the fairway and tried to pull away…

..but the cart did not budge. It kept telling him he was in an “unauthorized area” and must return to the playing area. Brent tried for few minutes trying to move forward to the fairway, but the cart wouldn’t let him move forward. It kept inching backward towards the water and the bunker. You could see the frustration in Brent’s face grow as he kept fudging with forward/reverse switch, but he kept getting closer to the bunker.

Soon, the Player’s Assistant showed up. Without getting out of the cart, he watched Brent try haplessly to move the cart back to the fairway. At this point, he asked us “do you mind if I let the group behind you through?”

SAY WHAT???

We declined, and at this point Brent got out of the cart, grabbed the bag and started walking towards the ball. I grabbed my bag as well and we left the cart behind.

We will pick up the story on the 10th hole…

For those without any cart troubles and enjoy Florida golf, will find much to love here as the double green (18th and 9th) surrounds a lovely little pond.


Close up of the green area. (That is Brent with his bag!)


View from the 18th

[Garland Bayley]

It's that slow tempo on the backswing that makes you so slow Richard. Now don't try and pass your slow play off on malfunctioning golf carts.

What more could a pond hating walker want than the lovely pond in the last picture. I won't be riding and playing Sailsh Cliffs.

[Peter Ferlicca]

For this being one of the very few golf courses that opened last year, it is not that promising at all.  I hope the slim amount of projects we have in the future look better than this.   

It looks like a maintenance nightmare in costs, I can't imagine this place doing that well.  From the sound of Richard Choi, it won't have many repeat customers. 

I will be up in Washington this summer, and was planning on checking this place out.  BUT, from looking at these pics, I have no interest at all now. 

[Richard Choi]

Peter, I think Salish will do about as well as Suncadia. They are very similar in quality.

From some of the responses I have seen from other people who have played Salish, they really like it because of the conditioning. As I have mentioned before, the condition from tee to green is about as perfectly manicured as I have seen anywhere (though soft). The greens are so perfect, they look manufactured. I thought Tumble Creek had great conditioning, this place is even better.

For most people outside this treehouse, Great Conditioning = Great Course, so I think Salish will do okay as long as they keep this up.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Richard,

I hope they don't do as well as Suncadia, because they are not doing well at all.  Suncadia Resorts laid off over 150 employees during the winter.  They are cutting costs like crazy and are moving staff all around.  They are really struggling.  To be honest, the Prospector course is very mediocre.  It is a mounding nightmare. The new Rope Rider course is much better, but I can't imagine it will save the resort.  If Tumble Creek wasn't there that place would be a ghost town, IMO.  

The new resort they are building in Brewster is also going to be in the middle of nowhere.  Suncadia and the new one in Brewster will both have very short seasons.  

Richard you mention how the normal folk think that good maintenance=good golf course.  When I was up there in 2010, it felt like everyone up there was A LOT OF TREES=GOOD GOLF COURSE.   Every time I mentioned Wine Valley people would look at me and say, "well it was good, but there was no trees on it."  

[Richard Choi]

Peter, you are quite correct about "More Trees = Great Course" mentality around here. I see that a lot and is one of the reasons people use to knock down Chambers as well.

Too bad about Suncadia. I looked into getting a lot there and couldn't believe it when lot prices there were more expensive than my entire house in Bellevue just outside Seattle. Hopefully we will find some sane equlibrium in the future.

Rope Rider course photo tour is NEXT!

[Jason Thurman]

I hear the "trees=good golf" line a lot. I'm not sure who invented the term "tree-lined classic," but I know plenty of people who use it. They usually also talk about "fluffy white sand" and "fairways like carpet."

The course looks beautiful, which also counts for plenty of people. It probably should count a bit for all of us. Even if the course is narrow and heavily dictated, it's gotta be a beautiful place to spend an afternoon.

I'm not sure the fact that it opened last year bodes poorly for the future of architecture. The property looks like it could've produced something quite good. If people are still willing to develop courses like this, there's hope. But it's possible that the execution could've been better.

I look forward to hearing the conclusion of the cart abandonment tale.

[Brent Carlson]

As Rich so aptly described, the runaway cart incident was one of the most unique experiences I have ever had on a golf course.  Let's hope they get that fixed.  But at its core, golf is a walking game.  I would like to see them allow the opportunity for those of us so inclinced.  There is not doubt that we could have completed the round walking in sub 5 hours.

In regards to the course - I truly wish Salish the utmost success, especially with the paucity of courses that have opened in the past couple years.  Like many have said, a course with lush turf and "excellent" conditioning will weigh heavily in one's  opinion of the course.  For that reason Salish will rank highly in the mind of your average golfer.  The GCA aficionado is a unique breed by definition, and yet I still say the course is worth a play.  So for those of you who are on the fence, get up to Shelton and have a go.  There's no downside.

Now to the back nine...

[Matthew Essig]

Peter, you are quite correct about "More Trees = Great Course" mentality around here. I see that a lot and is one of the reasons people use to knock down Chambers as well.

Too bad about Suncadia. I looked into getting a lot there and couldn't believe it when lot prices there were more expensive than my entire house in Bellevue just outside Seattle. Hopefully we will find some sane equlibrium in the future.

Rope Rider course photo tour is NEXT!

Not if I can start to make a Rope Rider photo tour first...    

I hope you don't mind if I make the Rope Rider photo tour... I was waiting for the fescue to not be dormant before I took the pictures.

As I have a cabin there, I am up there almost every weekend, so the weekend the fescue is back to normal, I am going to take the pictures.

[Richard Choi]

Matthew, the Rope Rider course is all yours. I was hoping to get up there this weekend or next. Perhaps we can get a round together.

[Richard Choi]

10th Hole
Par 5 – 587, 568, 540, 490, 437 – Hdcp 8

Flyover
http://youtu.be/M0hnOWIBSA4

When we last left off, Brent and I had abandoned our demon possessed cart and finished the 9th hole with our bags on our back.

As we walked off the 9th hole and past the clubhouse, we walked right by the rows of carts lined up next to the practice area. We did not stop to get a new cart as, while extremely difficult walk, Brent and I were confident that we could walk this course within the 5 hour pace that we were playing to. Frankly, I would much prefer to walk 100 yards between every hole than wait 5 to 10 min on every hole riding the cart. The experience with a directionally challenged GPS-equipped nanny cart was certainly not helping the matter.

As we were about half way between the clubhouse and the 10th tee, the club pro raced towards us in a cart. He stopped and told us in no uncertain terms that the course is cart-only and we MUST ride a cart with no exceptions. We tried to explain that the demonically possessed cart would not move and we had no choice but to abandon the cart, and we would really prefer to continue that way. The pro was having none of that. He actually accused us of driving the cart into a forbidden area and not following clearly defined guidelines.

Let’s just say we were not pleased about being falsely accused of doing something we were not supposed to do with the cart. Now, I develop software for living. I have actually worked on projects with GPS positioning. I KNOW how much error is involved with using GPS. Relying on GPS to be accurate enough to avoid driving into bunkers on a golf course is not a good idea. It should be used for something much more general, like driving the cart away from the course, not fine tuning where golfers can and cannot go on the course. Siding on error prone GPS system over your paying customers is a foolish endeavor.

Brent walked away in frustration. The situation was escalating enough that I did what don’t like doing – I told him that I am a rater for GW and that I was here to rate the course. I like to rate courses like restaurant critics rate a restaurant – incognito, but I just wanted to diffuse the situation. The pro backed down a bit, I told him I will take the cart and we were on our merry way to the 10th tee… where we proceeded to wait another 5 min for the group in front of us to clear (this is after about 15 or 20 min detour). Nice.

Back to the course, the tee shot on this par 5 look much like other holes, short bunker to carry and far bunker too far to reach.


Unlike other holes, 10th does give you some extra space to the right for a slice.


Short approach to the green


The green seems to be designed to accept a long fade second shot.

[Richard Choi]

11th Hole
Par 4 – 445, 428, 382, 374, 368 – Hdcp 4

Flyover
http://youtu.be/jnebWS7M5no

A long par 4 with a slightly different flavor. This dogleg does not have framing bunkers off the tee and features a wetland that goes across the hole about 60 yards short of the green.


A long drive should leave you well short of the hazard. The green looks quite wide and inviting.


The green from the back. You can see there is some internal movements to keep things interesting.

[Richard Choi]

12th Hole
Par 4 – 434, 394, 386, 335, 327 – Hdcp 12

Flyover
http://youtu.be/T4-gVW2xuS8

One of the better looking drive on the course. The bunker group on the right is quite intimidating, but you must flirt with it if you want a short approach. The tee shot is quite unforgiving as it is basically a table-top fairway. Anything not in the fairway is pretty much a lost ball.


If you challenge the bunkers and are successful, you will be rewarded with a speed slot that should propel your ball within a wedge distance to the green with the desirable angle.


You can see the slot better from this angle.

[Michael Dugger]

The story about the marshall asking you to let the group behind play through will keep me from ever visiting this course.

Nothing angers me more than oblivious and unreasonable marshall man. 

[Joe Stansell]

Okay, I realize I'm supposed to wait until the end of the tour before I jump to conclusions, but so far, my takeaway is this:

1.  Tree-lined. Yuck.
2.  Wall-to-wall cart paths. Yuck.
3.  Mandatory carts. Yuck.
4.  Inhospitable. Yuck.
5.  Expensive. Yuck.

On the upside, I like Circling Raven, so maybe I'll like this, too.

[Richard Choi]

Joe, I don't know if I would be that harsh...

There is nothing wrong with tree-lined fairways. What I object to is the lack of width and automatic lost ball in the trees. This is the same thing I knocked Awarii Dunes for. It is like playing on a course where every fairway is surrounded by water hazard. At least Awarii had pretty good fairway width, the fairways at Salish is no wider than a typical course with no room for error beyond.

There is probably a better chance that Tiger would win the US Open this year than him not losing a single ball if he played a round at Salish.

If you are a mid-handicapper or higher with a slice, you are going to have a pretty miserable day out there. Which also explains the 5 hour round as at least one person in a foursome is probably going to lose a ball on almost every hole.

I can't really recommend this course for play unless you are a pretty straight driver.

Is Circling Raven also narrow and unforgiving?

[Mike Hendren]

There is something tasty about a man who uses brush tees complaining about a cart with a GPS governor. 

Bogey

[Kalen Braley]

Here is a photo tour I did a few years back of Circling Raven.  It has a few hole likes 8, 15 and 18 that are a bit narrow, but for the most part is fairly wide open.

I'll let the group decide, but so far I'm not a big fan of Salish either....

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31584.0.html

[Richard Choi]

13th Hole
Par 3 – 223, 188, 155, 135, 129 – Hdcp 16

Flyover
http://youtu.be/CCiJRVJOL9U

Saltzman may want to look away as I am posting yet another variation on the 3rd hole.

The first three par 3’s at Salish all have a very similar look at feel with three different elevations (3rd high, 6th medium, 13th flat). Personally, I like this version the best as it has the most interesting green.


The green is large and deep with three distinct tiers.

[Richard Choi]

14th Hole
Par 4 – 437, 414, 383, 344,338 – Hdcp 2

Flyover
http://youtu.be/LZYeYZPjQAk

I definitely think the back 9 is stronger than the front 9 as there is more variety to the holes (also much more walkable). The bunker to the left is mostly for eye candy as you should easily carry it.


A decent drive will leave you with a mid-iron or a longer club to a peninsula green. Most short hitters will have to lay up to the left.


You will have to lay up very far up if you don’t want to hit over the wetland.


Looking back.