Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed...& 16...& 14

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The left side bunkers on # 16 are probably "safety net" bunkers preventing drives from finding the water hazard or becoming lost

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wait, I made a mistake. It looks like 18 green was moved between the 1958 and 1964 aerials.

I checked the plates for specific dates and it's Dec. 10, 1957 and Feb 20, 1964. Re the 1957 date, a head scratcher: in the margin of the plate the date is 10 Dec 1957, but the USGS lists it in the accompanying materials as October 1958. Confusing...

Apologies.

[JC Jones]

Through sheer serendipity I found a 1940 aerial. It is very poor quality but nevertheless I added it to the carousel:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

I also added a 1964 aerial, which is of very good quality.

We can narrow down the date of 18 green's relocation to between 1964 and 1968.

Mark,

It seems to me that the green was moved between the 1958 and the 1964 aerial, which would fit into the RvH and Dick Wilson dying timeline of 1955-1965.

Edit:  I see you've also caught that.

[JC Jones]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the 3rd green appears to move SSW, higher onto the dune, between the 1953 and the 1958 aerial. 

That begs the question, when did they move it and could it have happened prior to Wilson?  If RvH was hired in 1955, perhaps he wasn't involved in moving the 3rd green but it seems to me he would have known that Wilson did it.

I will say, however, that moving the 3rd green higher onto the dune would certainly fit with what RvH told me was Wilson's preferred routing for the property (vastly different from Ross's actual).

[Mark Bourgeois]

For my sins I have added an iso on the 1958 to 1964 relocation of 18 green:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC18green5864.html

I zoomed about 25 percent and included the clubhouse for reference.

Tom, I am happy to do any courses people suggest (assuming I can find photos). Here is Gulfstream comparing 1940 and 1953 to 2012:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/GS.html

Unfortunately, the 1940 aerial is partially obstructed by the aircraft's wing(! or ?).

Which hole is the 15th? Let me know and I will try to do an iso.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

I don't think it's substantively higher.

The green was already cut close to # 4 tee, semi-benched into the dune, per the 1930 aerial.

Moving it south/left added a little elevation, but it was already elevated well above the fairway and DZ.

What many forget is how many alterations are done "in house" often without the aid of a retained architect.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

The 15th green of Gulf Stream is in the lower left of the photo with two bunkers on its right side. Apparently Wilson flipped the orientation of the green around 45 degrees from what Ross did. It wouldn't be that significant I guess if not for the fact that Ross apparently mentioned it in his book as one of his favorite holes anywhere.

On the other hand, if he did mention it in his book which was apparently a lost manuscript I'm a bit confused as Gulf Stream was later than when that manuscript was apparently finished by Ross.

Gulf Stream was restored by Brian Silva over a decade ago but when I spoke with Pete Dye the other night he said he is working on Gulf Stream now. A few years ago he built a new 18th green much nearer the ocean which is supposed to be spectacular.

[Mark Bourgeois]

A legitimate concern is the actual dates of the aerials; in the case of the 1958 aerial for example there's a discrepancy between the date given the photograph by archivists (1958) and the "apparent" date listed on the plate. "Apparent" because I don't fully understand the nomenclature: it may or may not be a date and if it clearly is a date it may be the date of something other than when the photo was taken.

That caveat aside, dates do appear on almost all the slides and it's reasonable to assume they're the dates the photos were taken. Additionally, because they're printed on the slides themselves those dates must have been entered by people directly involved in the project, at that time. It's reasonable to assume those dates not only represent when the photos were taken, they are highly likely to be accurate.

Lastly, although archivists are human and make mistakes, we should keep in mind these are professionals doing this full-time and likely there was a process geared towards reducing the number of errors.

Anyway here is what appears on the slides:

1940


1953


1958 -- note discrepancy between archivist date of 1958 and on-slide date of 10 DEC 57


1964 -- I don't seem to have kept the original but in the title of the cropped photo I list the date as 2-20-64. I can't recall where I got this date but likely it's the date on the slide.

1968

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark,

The left side bunkers on # 16 are probably "safety net" bunkers preventing drives from finding the water hazard or becoming lost

Patrick, what kinds of golfers, in terms of ability, have you seen hit into them? How do they affect play, particularly in tournaments? How would their removal change your thought process on the tee or how you play the hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The left side bunkers on # 16 are probably "safety net" bunkers preventing drives from finding the water hazard or becoming lost

Patrick, what kinds of golfers, in terms of ability, have you seen hit into them?
How do they affect play, particularly in tournaments? How would their removal change your thought process on the tee or how you play the hole?

Mark,

The first thing you have to remember is that a prevailing wind allows the hole to be played downwind, so the first bunker at the corner acts as a safety net for many golfers.  The other three bunkers act as a safety net for those trying to carry the interior, right side bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I'm not the greatest photo analyst, but the 1953 photo seems to indicate that the 18th green is in it's currrent location.

TEPaul, what do you think ?

[TEPaul]

Mark:

While it certainly seems your research has produced a lot of interesting interpretative possibilities about some of Seminole's architecture history, I am still having some real problems understanding or analyzing this material you're producing.

Please help me.

For starters please call me at the Barn/Office=610-353-0568; I have a few things to tell you that might be directive.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark:

While it certainly seems your research has produced a lot of interesting interpretative possibilities about some of Seminole's architecture history, I am still having some real problems understanding or analyzing this material you're producing.

Please help me.

For starters please call me at the Barn/Office=610-353-0568; I have a few things to tell you that might be directive.

TE,

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, just look at the single frame photo labeled 1953 and tell me if you think the 18th green is in its current location.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

I'm looking at the photos just like you. I have no professional training in such analysis. There are people on here who do; hope they chime in.

The only suggestion I have is go to the *third* picture / slider here:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html

This slides between 1953 and 1968.

Hit the "command" and "=" (which is also the "+" key) buttons simultaneously on your keyboard. This is the zoom function. Repeat until the photos are as large as you like then slide back and forth.

As you can see, it's not a perfect overlay but the clubhouse provides a frame of reference.

[TEPaul]

Mark,
I'm not the greatest photo analyst, but the 1953 photo seems to indicate that the 18th green is in it's currrent location.
TEPaul, what do you think?”


“TE,
It doesn't take a rocket scientist, just look at the single frame photo labeled 1953 and tell me if you think the 18th green is in its current location.”



Pat:

I just spoke with Mark and he helped me use those aerials. I clicked between the 1953 and the 1968 aerial, and I’m certain in 1953 (if the aerial date is correct) the 18th green was in its old or original position. In the 1968 aerial you can see the new or present green. Furthermore I can see how it was done---ex the old left greenside bunker of the original green was essentially utilized for the right greenside bunker of the new green and the new green was placed to the left of it. You can also see how much nearer the beach the new green is compared to the old one. Also interestingly it appears the old green still existed in that 1968 aerial

I haven’t been to Seminole since about 1995 but I've often wondered if that chipping and bunker practice green to the right of the practice tee is a vestige of Ross’s original green. It seemed a bit too far away from the new green but I would probably have to look again to tell.

[Will Lozier]

I haven’t been to Seminole since about 1995 but I've often wondered if that chipping and bunker practice green to the right of the practice tee is a vestige of Ross’s original green. It seemed a bit too far away from the new green but I would probably have to look again to tell.

Tom,

I've thought that all along.  Have never been to Seminole but that practice green looks to me to be the right side of the original.

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

I would have to say that I VASTLY prefer the look of the original bunkering to the "unnatural" look on the current version of Seminole.  Am I alone? 

[TEPaul]

Will:

The arrangement look of that old Ross bunkering in front of and around the original Ross 18th hole green does look interesting, and perhaps more interesting than the present green's green-end bunkering. However, Mark and I were talking about something in that vein this morning which is for us looking at those old aerials, all we are really picking up is the length and width dimensions. One cannot really pick up the height or vertical dimension on aerials so it's hard to tell what the height or vertical dimension was on those old Ross 18th green-end bunkers.

The thing that interests me is that the present right greenside bunker on the new green seems to be a vestige of the old left greenside bunker on the old green. However, it occurs to me that it may've had its left side elevated considerable if they actually elevated the level of the new green above what was there to the left of the old green.

I was telling Mark that this kind of thing from the old to the new could be just another example of basic Golf Architecture 101 which often boils down to cut and fill operations for some pretty practical reasons to do with architecture, as well as for ongoing practical agronomy and maintenance reasons.

[Will Lozier]

Will:

The arrangement look of that old Ross bunkering in front of and around the original Ross 18th hole green does look interesting, and perhaps more interesting than the present green's green-end bunkering. However, Mark and I were talking about something in that vein this morning which is for us looking at those old aerials, all we are really picking up is the length and width dimensions. One cannot really pick up the height or vertical dimension on aerials so it's hard to tell what the height or vertical dimension was on those old Ross 18th green-end bunkers.

The thing that interests me is that the present right greenside bunker on the new green seems to be a vestige of the old left greenside bunker on the old green. However, it occurs to me that it may've had its left side elevated considerable if they actually elevated the level of the new green above what was there to the left of the old green.

I was telling Mark that this kind of thing from the old to the new could be just another example of basic Golf Architecture 101 which often boils down to cut and fill operations for some pretty practical reasons to do with architecture, as well as for ongoing practical agronomy and maintenance reasons.

Tom,

I was referring to the entire courses' bunkering - the positions of them look virtually the same save for the holes we've talked about.  True that I can't know what it looked like at ground level the whole course over - that look is the one that really matters aesthetically.  But, the ground level pics I've seen still look more attractive that what is there now as do the aerials (to me at least).  Do you know of specific reasons that Wilson (or whomever) changed the general look - is it maintenance?  Were the edges cleaned up due to wind erosion?  Would love to hear your opinion of the look of the bunkering from when you first saw it to now or, what looks to be the last 4 decades?

Cheers

[Mark Bourgeois]

Just on the timing, it seems there were changes to the course in the 1940s and even the 1930s, although the 1930s changes appear minimal.

For example, the 12th hole and especially 14th hole. Looking at the aerials plus the circa 1930 oblique taken from the NNE (picture at the bottom of this page: http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html), here is what I see:

Between c1930 and 1940 pictures
 * bunker added to 12 R fwy near existing bunker (new bunker replaced or built into mounding?)

Between 1940 and 1953 pictures
 * bunkers removed from 14 L & R fwy
 * bunkers added to 14 L&R fwy (farther from tee than original fwy bunkers)
 * greenside bunkers combined and extended all the way across entrance to green

In case the c1930 picture is too small to see, here is a closeup of the 14 green complex:



How does the c1930 green compare to today's? Same green? Is it even possible to compare?

[TEPaul]

Will:

Concerning the look of the bunkering of Seminole over time, all I can really tell you are some colloquial stories I have heard about them over the last 3-5 decades----to wit:

Originally they say Ross was apparently doing a bunker look at Seminole that was pretty unique for him as he was trying to mimiced the look of waves that could be seen clearly from the higher points of the course. I don't know why or exactly how Wilson changed the look of them. From the earliest I remember Seminole which was at some point in the 1960s there was nothing that noticeable or remarrkably about them to me (they basically didn't look much different from Gulf Stream's (another Ross course) where I played much more golf than Seminole). They were just sand flashed up with a little roll-down at the top. Then there was a comprehensive bunker project in the late 1980s or early 1990s by Silva. Frankly I think the main reason they did the latter project was at that time Seminole had a real bee problem in so many of their bunkers.

I've not really thought of it before but my father belonged to six Ross courses---Gulph Mills in Philadelphia and in Florida Timaquana, St Augustine, Daytona Beach, Seminole and Gulf Stream. Other than the first two in Florida which I don't remember very well, the rest of them had bunkers that looked quite similar to me but back then I wasn't paying much attention to the details of golf course architecture.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Will,

In addition to the pic of 17 Sean Tully found, here is 9 green in the Dec 1932 issue of American Golfer:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

An interesting excercise would be to compare the 1930 aerial to the field drawings of the holes and greens.

I don't have the time to construct the comparision but will send the hole by hole field drawings when I relocate them in my golf file.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yes, please look, that would be interesting. I will see if I can find a picture of 9 green to compare to 1932, which appears, from memory at least, much closer to grade than current.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, please look, that would be interesting. I will see if I can find a picture of 9 green to compare to 1932, which appears, from memory at least, much closer to grade than current.

The front of the 9th green is currently at grade.

I suspect that Mother Nature had a substantive effect on the design and alterations made to Seminole.

After all, how many hurricanes does it take, submerging your greens, tees and bunkers, to figure out that they need elevation and/or alteration ?

Ross was alive and active in 1947, hence, it doesn't seem logical that substantive changes were made to the golf course up until 1947, unless Ross refused to alter the course.

Wilson's popularity and credibilty didn't surface until well beyond 1947.
Remember, he was the greenskeeper just down the road prior to 1947, so perhaps his retention in 1947 had more to do with agronomy than it did architecture.  On the other hand, he designed West Palm Beach CC in 1947, so perhaps, being in the area, he was contacted for advice or a project.

I had always believed that the aerial photo of Claude Harmon's round might hold the key to the date the 18th green was shifted.

One of the other things that Seminole did in more recent times was to reclaim the land between the 8th tee and the 1st fairway, making it a very good practice area with tees at both ends.  In the past, I recall that area being rather soggy.

With respect to the location of the old green, relative to the new green, go to historicaerials.com and look at the 1968 aerial.
I believe it shows the old green next to the new green.

You might want to insert that photo into your gallery.