Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed...& 16...& 14

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I am so impressed with the work you have done with those aerials of Seminole and particularly the 18th green, although I must admit I've had some trouble figuring out how to interpret that photo. Of course one question is the clubhouse and when it was built (why isn't it in that photo?).

I do not know specifically when Wilson moved the 18th green to the left and more into the dunes. Does your evidence seem to point to it being done at some point after 1958?

Maybe the club has some record of that redesign work by Wilson and when it was done and maybe they don't. All I can add is that I am personally aware (from my father) that Wilson was doing an awful lot of architectural work for a sort of specific group of men around that time and later to the end of his life (1965). This includes Seminole, Gulf Stream, Pine Tree and a number of courses in the north such as Meadowbrook. Basically there was a group of Eastern guys who belonged to all those clubs and back then Dick Wilson was definitely their go-to guy.

Why did that group pick Wilson so exclusively as they seemed to have done? I really don't know but one assumption I might make might have to do with the war and what Wilson did then. I believe he got into working with the armed forces and constructing airfields and such and the fact is a very large segment of that particular group was heavily involved in the war effort and particularly in the creation of the OSS and then the CIA. Hobe Sound was very much the winter community of a large group of men who essentially set up the modern American security apparatus. In the late 1960s I used to go to Hobe Sound quite a lot. I would enter the island across its south bridge (Perry Como had a house next to the bridge) and it always struck me as odd that within two minutes a cop would pull me over and ask me what I was doing and where I was going. Essentially the island was wired, probably for national security reasons!

[TEPaul]

"What is interesting is that Pete Dye would have never known the pre-Wilson renovations and I wonder how much he would have known of the pre-Amos Jones greens."


JC:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Pete Dye goes back a long way. He actually knew Donald Ross (who died in 1948), and Pete goes back a long way in Florida. This is just a story from way back that was one from my father but I think one of the reasons Pete came to Florida was his parents went there first and one of the reasons they did was because they were very impressed with Dick Wilson. One cannot even begin to understand Pete and Alice's life in golf by just tracking their involvment in golf course architecture. Both Pete and Alice were very good players and for that reason alone they both really got around. That's why they knew my father and all his good golfer friends from so far back.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE,

Photos and newspaper articles dated 12-22-29 show the clubhouse.

The club officially opened on 01-01-30 with Grace Amory hitting the first ball off the first tee.

The clubhouse was designed by Mr Marion Wveth or Wyeth and built by the Arnold Construction Company.

Let's not forget that Pete wouldn't be familiar with Seminole prior to 1947, when he was all of 22 years old, growing up in Ohio.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Did you ever hear/tell of Grace Amory or did you ever know her?

[JMEvensky]

Pat:

Did you ever hear/tell of Grace Amory or did you ever know her?

Jesus,surely Mucci isn't that old.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TE,

I never knew her, I knew of her.

Regarding the greens, I've heard the topdressing theory with respect to alterations to greens numerous times regarding numerous courses.
Remember, this isn't a statement of fact, it's Pete's "premise".

Seminole is a windy site.
Seminole gets significant and often very heavy rainfall.
Topdressing was done infrequently in early times, especially with Bermuda.
I have my doubts about the ability of topdressing, especially sparse or infrequent top dressing, over just a few years, to materially alter green configurations, three dimensionally, at that site.

Once again, if you examine the chronology of events, I doubt that Pete was familiar with the greens until the early 50's, 21+ years after their creation.

As to their shape, while there can be discrepancies between design plans and as-builts, you have to ask yourself, how different, today, are Seminole's greens, from Ross's field plans/drawings.

Lastly, in what time frame was Amos Jones employed at Seminole ?
That information would be significant in support or rejection of Pete's premise

[TEPaul]

"Jesus,surely Mucci isn't that old."


Jeff:

Sure he is; he's even older than "that." Gracie was around a long, long time. She was still around when my Dad died in 1991. If I can figure out how to do it I'm going to link that site on here I once showed you called "The House of Munn." Grace Amory is in that as is this section which you would love, Jeff, entitled "A Fernanda Who's Who."     

[JMEvensky]

 "A Fernanda Who's Who."     

Don't toy with me about Fern.

[TEPaul]

TE,

I never knew her, I knew of her."


Pat:

Gracie (Grace Amory Ryan) was unforgettable. She was a total piece of work! Her husband, Alan Ryan, was perhaps the most beloved president Seminole ever had and in a real way it was pretty much a "husband and wife presidency" with Gracie.

I don't have time right now but I will tell you a wonderful story involving Gracie and the 17th hole. It seems like the 17th hole and women produced some wonderful stories. The best of them was when my father and I were playing it with Glenna Collett Vare!! I told it to Crenshaw on the phone one time and he dropped the phone he was laughing so hard. But the story about Gracie and the 17th is close!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom, I only have a minute but regarding the clubhouse, if you look closely you will see the bottom part of it in the c1930 photo here:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC18.html

That c1930 photo is a crop -- the uncropped photo is at the very bottom of this page (note clubhouse):
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html

On that same page -- http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html -- you will see a slider offering comparisons between the aerials of 1953 and 1968: scroll down past the first and second sliders to get to '53 v '68.

As to the timing of 18 green's relocation, sometime between 1958 and 1968 -- watch 18 green on this page:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

If you want to watch more carefully the changes on that page, do two things:
1) Hit the "command" and "+" buttons on your keyboard. This will zoom the image.
2) Click on one of the buttons in the row at the bottom of the slideshow photos. Each button corresponds to a year. For example, click on the first button and the 1929 drawing appears. If you click back and forth between the third and forth buttons, you can toggle between 1958 and 1968.

By the way, you can click on any buttons for a comparison of non-consecutive photos. For example, if you want to compare 1958 to 1983, just click back and forth between the third and sixth buttons.

[Mark Bourgeois]

By the way, does anyone else see a dark green oval to the left of 17 green in the 1958 aerial? Could that be a tee?

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I don't know why but I'm sort of struggling to figure out some of those aerials. For instance, in your second entry in Post #59 you mention the clubhouse in the bottom of the photo. That's not the clubhouse----it's the maintenance building to the west of the 6th hole.

[DMoriarty]

Grace Amory at Seminole, Life Magazine, April 8, 1940.

[TEPaul]

Thanks for that Life Magazine article on Gracie (Amory) Ryan. That's pretty cool; she sort of looks like a world class ballerina with a golf club.

I have no idea how to post stuff like that on here but if anyone is interested in who Grace Amory (Ryan) was just put "House of Munn" into Google and some 2006 article from something called the New York Social Diary will come up. The article with some interesting photos will come up. It's a long article and it's about 3/4 of the way down it where they mention Gracie (and her husband, Alan Ryan, the man I consider to be Seminole's most beloved president).

That article is a good example of what those so-called "Beautiful People" were and what they looked like way back when. It was basically that "WASP" world in an era when they were at their full glory in America. Some called it the second "Belle Epoch."

And yes, Jeff, it's the article that includes "The Fernanda Who's Who." It almost too complicated for me to follow, but at the end of it they do mention our "Fern" (Fernanda Wanamaker Wetherill (Niven)) who may be secretly in love with you.

[DMoriarty]

I thought about making you all beg me to show you the article, but that is not my style. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark:

I don't know why but I'm sort of struggling to figure out some of those aerials. For instance, in your second entry in Post #59 you mention the clubhouse in the bottom of the photo. That's not the clubhouse----it's the maintenance building to the west of the 6th hole.

I think you're looking at the first slider, the one at the top of the page showing c1930 v 2012. Yes, that indeed is the maintenance building.

If you scroll all the way down the page, way down at the bottom you'll see a second c1930 picture, an oblique aerial taken from the NNE. This is the original, uncropped photo. If you look in the *upper left* of that photo, you'll see the clubhouse. This photo will be a good one for when we have our discussion regarding the apparent changes to 16.  

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Thanks, I'll give it a shot. This is some interesting and potentially revelatory stuff being discussed.

As for what Pete Dye said to me last night about the greens of Seminole or Amos Jones, essentially it is what Tim Liddy said on another thread (linked on this one) some time ago. Pete did go into some real detail about it all though. If you have any questions I'm happy to field them.

[Mark Bourgeois]

According to the club history, the 1949 hurricane (see reply #11) blew over a water tank that contributed to the flooding of the course. As a result of the storm, Dick Wilson was brought in to "revise" fairways and greenside bunkers. The history says Wilson flashed bunkers, "softened collars" around greens, and reduced "some of the more severe slopes" on the greens. Additionally, it says green committee chairman Chris Dunphy instructed Wilson to relocate 18 green -- a suggestion Ben Hogan says he made to Dunphy.

The same passage says club records note the greens were reduced in size during WWII but when the greens were rebuilt after 1990, they totaled 88,751 square feet, whereas club documents show Ross's original greens totaled 135,000 sq ft.

But: much later in the book it says Wilson was hired in 1948.

The history says Dunphy made "at least two more significant revisions" to the course. Around 1955 he cleared sea grapes cleared from behind 3 tee and added new rear tees 20 yards back, higher on the ridge. Then around 1959 he installed a culvert in 14 fairway where a drainage ditch once existed and had the area grassed over. A footbridge used to cross the ditch was removed.

So, a timeline:

• 1942-45 greens shrunk
• 1948 Wilson hired(?)
• Aug 1949 bad hurricane
• 1950 Wilson hired after hurricane to change fairways, flash bunkers, flatten greens, and relocate 18 green
• 1953-58 someone moves 3 green back
• 1955 Dunphy moves 3 tee 20 yards back
• 1958-68 someone moves 18 green left into dune
• 1959 Dunphy grasses over drainage ditch in 14 fairway note: only Ross's 1929 plan shows the ditch traversing the fairway; all aerials show grass

A few questions for starters:

1. Was Wilson hired in 1948, 1950 or both?

2. Did Wilson develop a comprehensive plan or make a recommendation that included the relocation of 3 and 18 greens, relocations the aerials suggest were not implemented until years later?

3. Who executed Wilson's plan? Was Amos Jones just the construction guy who executed Wilson's plan for softening greens?

By the way, thank you Bob and Tom for the complimentary posts and others for the complimentary IMs. I wasn't sure anyone would care but I figured if anyone did / does it would be people on here. By using this board we are saving the mental health of countless spouses, relatives, and cocktail party guests.

[JC Jones]

Mark,  good timeline and well done putting things together.  I'll try to answer your questions with my knowledge:

1.  My understanding was that Wilson had an ongoing relationship with Seminole during that time.  It was as much a social one as it was a professional one with Wilson spending a lot of time at the club drinking, etc.

2.  My understanding was that Wilson was carrying out only the projects directed to him by Dunphy.  Those same projects that the club history mentions.  I am not aware of him being directed to move the third green and was told specifically that Wilson was directed to NOT change the greens.

3.  Your third question assumes an answer to the second question that I do not believe to be the answer.  There was no Wilson plan.  With respect to who was carrying out the work for Wilson at Seminole, according to Robert Von Hagge, it was Robert Von Hagge.

I'm glad your taking on this cause.  I tried to do some of it a year or so ago with the aid of Tom Paul but I got distracted.

Good Stuff!!!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks, JC. I do feel a little guilty taking credit as all I am doing is sharing pictures and other materials, including technologies, already available and created, uncovered or invented by others.

Where does everyone think the 46,248 sq ft (not 46,249 or 46,247) of green surface went? Does anyone see anything in the pictures?

[Mark Bourgeois]

The 16th hole is the dogleg right located in the upper right of the carousel:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

In the first slider on this page, the 16th green is the right-hand one located top-center:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html

In the second slider on this page, the hole is the dogleg right located in the upper right quadrant:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html

If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of this page, the hole's green appears as second-from-bottom along the beach:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC.html

Four bunkers along the the left side of 16 fairway were added sometime between 1953 and 1964. It appears a drainage pond was added at least four years later, between 1968 and 1979, and then a drainage ditch was added between either 1979 and 1983 or 1983 and 1995.

Additionally, three bunkers were added sometime before 1953 to the right of the bunker located on the inside of the dogleg.

1. How do the addition of the left-side bunkers affect play of the hole? Are they directed at a specific class of golfer?

2. How was the hole as originally designed intended to play?

3. The first bunker, the one on the outside of the dogleg: is this a framing bunker, an aiming bunker, and / or a "saving" bunker (ie does it save a drive from going in water)? How would its removal affect play?

4. How do the addition of the right-side (inside the dogleg) bunkers affect play of the hole? Are they directed at a specific class of golfer?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Through sheer serendipity I found a 1940 aerial. It is very poor quality but nevertheless I added it to the carousel:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

I also added a 1964 aerial, which is of very good quality.

We can narrow down the date of 18 green's relocation to between 1964 and 1968.

EDIT: correct dates are from 1958 to 1964.

[TEPaul]

"We can narrow down the date of 18 green's relocation to between 1964 and 1968."


Mark:

If that's true it surely does make me scratch my head as I recall Dick Wilson died in 1965. I've got some interesting personal Dick Wilson stories to tell about the early 1960s but I think I will wait.

Listen, Mark, is there any way you can put this aerial research on Gulf Stream GC in Delray? I ask because apparently Wilson changed one of Donald Ross's most favorite greens there (#15). Ross mentioned that hole and green in his book, "Golf Has Never Failed Me."
 

[Sean_A]

Where does everyone think the 46,248 sq ft (not 46,249 or 46,247) of green surface went? Does anyone see anything in the pictures?

To me, this is the most critical question as a difference in this amount of green space also has huge implications for the greenside bunkering scheme.  

I also think it perfectly natural for Ross to keep high greens - that is is MO at tons of courses.  I know at my childhood course the site was very wet and he wouldn't have had much choice other than to look for high green sites - very much a material aspect of the design. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dick Wilson died in 1965.

It's my understanding that he was in failing health prior to his death.

Robert Von Hagge was hired by Wilson in 1955.

Based on previous statements, that would further narrow the revision timeline to 1964-1965