Ross fail or Wilson hubris? How 18 Seminole was changed...& 16...& 14

[Mark Bourgeois]

http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC18.html

EDIT: Reply #70 mentions changes to 16th hole.

EDIT 2: Reply #94 mentions changes to 14th hole.

[Joel_Stewart]

I like the older version better.  Bunkering is quite striking.

I can't tell from the old photo if the green is elevated like it is now?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The cuurent hole offers exponentially more challenge along the left flank of the hole, especially as you get close to the green.

The drive is also more challenging.

Wilson's version is a vast improvement.

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Terrific website. I had not seen it before.

Bob

[Tyler Kearns]

Was the 18th green moved to accommodate a more conveniently located and larger driving range tee, or was that a by-product of Wilson's work? If indeed Wilson's hole is better than Ross' as Pat indicates, that would be one of the few instances where classic era courses are improved through alteration to make way for driving ranges, which often didn't exist when originally designed.

TK

[Bill_McBride]

Is Dick Wilson the most overlooked really good GCA in history?   I really enjoyed most of the original Doral Blue.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tyler, here are two angles of the original 18 green:
 http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC18green.html

Didn't know the old green was benched into dune, thought it was all the way over in paddock.

[Sam Morrow]

Is Dick Wilson the most overlooked really good GCA in history?   I really enjoyed most of the original Doral Blue.

He would be right there, Ralph Plummer was pretty good too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I'm having a problem with the graphic.

The 1930 version doesn't match Donald Ross's original field drawing of the hole for one.
That's not unusual in and of itself since I've seen holes where the field drawing doesn't match the as-built.
Yet, Ross's 1929 course schematic seems to match it very well

The second problem I'm having is the absence of the clubhouse, unless that's just my eyes or my computer not working properly.

The third problem I'm having is that the morphed version doesn't seem to jibe with the 1948 aerial in the clubhouse depicting Claude Harmon's round.  In that photo, the tee is to the West of the 17th green, while Ross's field drawing and schematic seems to have the tee/s to the East of the 17th

The club's book, "The History of Seminole" states the following:
"When Dick Wilson moved this green complex up to the left and onto the dune, it was the best change ever made at Seminole."

Interestingly enough, like CBM at NGLA's # 16, Ross had a dual tee on # 18.  One up on the dune and one below the dune.
Yet the 1947 aerial shows a different configuration.
The other thing I'm puzzled by is that the 1947 yardage for # 18 is listed at 450, yet the schematic appears to have it a 431, but, it could be 451 as the number is very difficult to read.  The club book lists the hole at 417 and the field drawing has it in the 430-440 range.
Is it possible that the hole was altered after 1930 but before Wilson redesigned it ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

Excellent post. I will have to see if I can track down the 1947/8 aerial.

I. The date of the pictures

The pictures are circa 1930. The date is unknown; 1930 is the Historical Society's best guess based on the lack of other human development in the pictures versus when development started to appear in the areas depicted. Check that, they did note one building to the far south, near where Oakbrook Square is today, in the picture taken from the NNE. They cannot identify the building.

Their guess is based also on the apparent models of cars and trucks trundling along the Federal Highway.

Bottom line: the pics could be later -- or earlier -- than 1930. They don’t know exactly.

Now, looking more closely at the picture of the 17th hole from 1931 Sean Tully unearthed, and comparing it to the circa 1930 picture, in the c1930 pic the bunker top lines appear less wavy.

On the other hand, bunkers on other holes show the wavy top lines.

Was 17 changed or do the pictures depict an unfinished hole? Bunker degradation due to a storm, bunker redo, or incomplete bunker?

II. The clubhouse in the pictures

Part of the clubhouse appears in the c1930 pic but not in the 2012 pic. The two pictures are not cropped at the same point. Furthermore, the 2012 picture has been manipulated to approximate the same POV as the c1930 pic.

III. The location of 18 green and tee

I think the photos support that 18 green indeed was moved, not just to the left but back. Did the original 18 green -- or at least the green depicted in the photos -- sit on flat paddock or on the shoulder of the dune? The picture taken from the SW seems to show a sloped green. Was it sloped and if so, how much? Was it regarded as too sloped?

Seeing Ross’s drawing with a tee to the East of 17 green, and then seeing a maintained area in the photo for that spot, makes me wonder, too, if a tee was built and, at least initially, used over there. Given Ross’s plan shows a tee over there, I have spent months wondering why it is said Wilson “discovered” the location for an 18th tee in the dunes. Even if Ross ended up not building a tee in the dunes, he would have mulled it over then decided against it. Why?

In fairness, Wilson’s tee seems to be farther back, so in that sense he broke new ground.

Moving back the green and moving the tee back and over makes the hole longer. But how much longer?

Was the 18th modified after Ross but before Wilson? I have no photos or information.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Do you remember the picture that appeared in one of the golf magazines a few years back after one of the hurricanes.

I called it "Lake Seminole" because everything between the two ridges was underwater.
You could see the flagsticks and palm trees, but little else.

I wonder how much change has been due to major storms.

I don't have the time right now, but, it would be interesting to list the years that major storms hit south Florida from 1929 to current date.

Those storms may have been responsible for some alterations to the golf course

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

Was that after Hurricane Wilma? I remember seeing photos of the damage to Palm Beach's par 3 course, which sits on both the Atlantic and on Lake Worth.

It's funny you write that. Something clicked in my mind after writing about 17 green and I remembered the 1928 Okeechobee Hurricane, a Category 4 storm landfalling between Jupiter and Boca Raton that killed 2,500 people, mainly in and around Belle Glade. The landfall date was September 16, 1928 and it pushed a surge of 11 feet onto Palm Beach.

Here are a few pics:



I doubt the timing of that storm explains the bunkers on 17.

Here's where it gets interesting. If a storm, a tropical storm at least, is the reason then another possibility is a hurricane landfalling from the ESE on Sept 4, 1933, with 130mph winds.

If hurricanecity.com is to be believed, the next tropical storm to landfall in the Palm Beach area did not occur until 1945 -- that too was a 130mph Category 4 monster. And then:

* Sept 17, 1947, 130mph
* Oct 12, 1947, 85mph
* Sept 22, 1948, 85mph
* Aug 26, 1949, 150mph (meter blew away)
* Oct 18, 1950, 90mph ("causing heavy beach erosion")

A few points:

1) If 17 bunker top lines lost waviness due to a tropical storm, the pictures either date to 1928 or to 1933-4, mostly likely the latter. When did construction begin?

2) Never mind WWII neglect, the super-cycle in the post-war period could alone have left the course in a state of disrepair -- in fact, any one of the major storms could have. In Palm Beach the two 1947 storms blew away half the Bath & Tennis Club and led to the creation of So Fla Water Mgt District.

3) More pure speculation unsupported by any direct evidence: at first it seems foolhardy to move 18 tee and green towards the ocean, after such repeated battering, but to your point: towards the ocean is up the dune and that's higher ground. (Hmm, was repeated storm-caused flooding a contributing factor in 3 green being moved farther up the western dune?)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Curiouser and curiouser -- now look at this:

http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

Focusing on the 18th -- if you zoom in with your browser (press "control" and "+" keys together), you can see it more clearly -- it appears that:
* the green was not moved until after the 1958 aerial was taken;
* as of 1953 a tee to the left of 17 green existed, possibly -- there appears to be a maintained area and some kind of a walk from there to 18 fairway, although maybe it was just for maintenance vehicles;

I cannot emphasize enough that while photos don't lie, at least non-Photoshopped photos, they don't always tell the whole truth. These old photos in particular often have distortions that requires manipulation to "sync" to current photos. Conversely, to replicate the POV of old photos, sometimes current photos are manipulated to approximate as closely as possible.

An area was maintained left of 17 green, it's reasonable to assume it's a teeing area, but there aren't any words to corroborate that nor at the end of the day are the photos conclusive proof a tee was there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The storm pattern is interesting and may contain the key to Ross's routing whereby he only had 7 greens beneath the ridges with 11 greens on or benched into the ridges.

Of the 7 in the hollow, all are elevated, some more than others, like # 15.

Remember, Ross also crafted a drainage system for that site.
A waterway runs from the Northern most portion of the land and empties out at the Southernmost portion of the land

Ross's original schematic has a dual tee on # 18.
it would seem logical to place a tee high up on the eastern ridge to avoid flooding in the hollow.

While many have cited the genius of Ross's routing and use of the two ridges,his inspiration may have been Mother Nature in the form of storms/hurricanes and flooding.

[Mark Bourgeois]

It really is an amazing engineering story, isn't it? I hadn't thought about the greens in that light. I thought their elevation was down either to the ol' top-dressing-through-the-ages chestnut or to a creative (design) connection to #2.

(Not that there haven't been top dressing effects; it may be visible in the then v now pics of 17.)

It would be interesting to review the course, hole by hole, just from the perspective of engineering challenges and decisions. How much was the great routing a product of those decisions, an incredibly fortuitous design bonus? I am not qualified to do that.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

You might be onto revealing a number of things about Seminole (construction and architectural evolution) that have heretofore been unknown. On the other hand, some answers to some of these questions may remain knowable for a variety of reasons.

It has always been my impression that Seminole is a bit light on historical material on their course but it could also be that no one has analyzed it all that carefully over the years.

There is also some real diversity of opinion about certain aspects of the course, particularly including the evolution of the greens. Pete Dye maintains his very strong opinion that they were essentially ruined at some point about midway in the evolution of the course. He actually cites some contractor from Georgia as being responsible. My vague recollection is that his name was something like Rufus Jones. Did he work with Dick Wilson or was he an independent? I don't know the answer to that yet.

Anyway, Ross's irrigation and drainage system at Seminole really was unique. I can't remember where I read about it (perhaps in Klein's Ross book). It was specifically designed for the unusual reality that exists with the water table in the middle of the course. I think it was and is just about at the same level as the ocean. The drainage system is complex and elaborate and Ross designed it himself apparently. It pumps both in and out but particularly relies on the water body just to the south of the course (on the south side of the driveway). For the system to work properly I think that resevoir to the south was designed.

For something that elaborate I would have to think even in the late 1920s there must have been a permitting plan that might have been filed with the county (and hopefully still available).

And don't forget that some of the original founders of Seminole were some very heavyweight powerful men such as E.F. Hutton and Mr. MacLean of Washington D.C. Those guys had some top friends and contacts in government including the US Government. It is also worth noting that Hobe Sound just to the north was an island basically populated by most all the men who set up the entire security apparatus for the USA (OSS and CIA).

The other interesting question and story on Seminole is that Ross really worked harder to get that contract than any other he ever had. Some significant architect was the immediate underbidder but no one seems sure who he was. I would say given the timing and what he was doing in Florida at the time, the most likely candidate would be William Flynn.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom,

Amos Jones?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=7ff661c3f9a5de849a8ca197d411367b&topic=43487.0

[TEPaul]

Yes, that's right----Amos Jones. I understand he was a well known black contractor from Georgia. I've spoken to Pete about this a number of times but I still can't figure out what Jones was doing and why or even exactly what he did do. But I do know that Pete still claims Jones ruined Seminole's Ross greens. I was standing talking to Pete and a few other people a few years ago at the PV Senior member/guest and Pete asked one of the people standing there where he played. The guy said Seminole and Pete's response was: "Those greens are the worst so-called Ross greens in the world." Well that sort of rocked that guy back and I just said: "Whoa, Pete, why sugar-coat it when you can say what you really feel?"

[DMoriarty]

Funny how a guy can go from being a course maintenance worker to a well known black contractor from Georgia.  I guess accuracy is secondary when there is yarn to be spun and names to be dropped.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Moriarty! Welcome to my thread. What have you been able to find out about him?

And what do you have on the course from the 1930s-40s? After Tully found that awesome 1931 photo I've had hopes you or he might turn up something out there on the wrong coast.

[DMoriarty]

Is there something about Tim Liddy's description that you don't understand?  Because it made sense to me. 

You never know I might turn up something. 

[Will Lozier]

It is a shame the diagonal cross bunker on 16 was never built.  Having not played Seminole, it looks great in the drawing, so much so that the aerials seem a bit boring (on that particular hole).  Not sure what the elevation change is on that part of the course but would love to hear some opinions on whether that bunker would add anything to what is currently there.

Cheers

[Mark Bourgeois]

David, something doesn't seem to add up. How many tractor drivers from 60 years ago can you recall?

[DMoriarty]

I could name quite a few people who were driving a tractor 60 years ago, just not on a golf course.  Really you'd have to ask Pete Dye. He is a lot older than I am, and probably has a better memory.

Could it be that "Amos Jones" was a colorful euphemism meant to represent the typical maintenance guy who wasn't too careful when top dressing?  Isn't the same top dressing story told about Pinehurst?  Maybe Amos Jones top dressed there as well.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Allen Smithee.