[John Chilver-Stainer]

Bold and ignorant statement from the official site of Scotland’s national tourism organisation.

http://golf.visitscotland.com/news__events/golf_blog/top_scottish_course_designers.aspx

We expect these kind of misinformed comments from the unserious journalism of the tabloids that pervade like weeds in the garden.

But when national organisations choose to ignore historical fact in favour of populism, then why bother with the celebration of history?

[Craig Van Egmond]

I don't see the problem... I mean Colin and Sam are two of the best.  Donald Ross?  Who?     

[Neil White]

John,

If they felt obliged to include Messer's Montgomerie and Torrance in lieu of other more deserving architects then they would've been better having it as a top 10 or not titling the article 'top' at all.........

Neil.

[Melvyn Morrow]

If its the 5 best of all time I would not include Colin or Sam. What about Simpson Fernie and a list of others. As for Ross, sorry he did not shine over here only really making it in the USA, so do not think I would include him.

While no disrespect to Sam or Colin, they come well down the pecking order in the long list of good golf course designers from Scotland. Perhaps if it was modern designers they may qualify in the top 5 but not in the Best Of Ever.

[Bill_McBride]

If its the 5 best of all time I would not include Colin or Sam. What about Simpson Fernie and a list of others. As for Ross, sorry he did not shine over here only really making it in the USA, so do not think I would include him.

While no disrespect to Sam or Colin, they come well down the pecking order in the long list of good golf course designers from Scotland. Perhaps if it was modern designers they may qualify in the top 5 but not in the Best Of Ever.

Has either ever routed a course or created a drawing?   I didn't think so.  They are the "signatures" who show up to hit the first tee shot.

[Niall Hay]

Even modern day, what about David McLay Kidd?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Go to jail, do not pass Go, but directly to jail.  Give the guy a chance, he still needs a few more under
his belt to balance out his portfolio. Perhaps one day, who knows. Walk before you ride is a wise way to address these issues IMHO

Melvyn

[Niall C]

Melvyn

The first qualification has got to be the gca's nationality and on that score both Donald Ross and David Kidd count. Next, what are you actually trying to guage ? I suggest it should be a mix of ability as a gca and track record as a gca. Where the courses are located is of no consdieration so in that respect Donald Ross has to be a given, and I say that not having played any of his designs but by rep alone. Kidd - again haven't played any of his courses but certainly a number of his courses have a good/decent rep so I would have thought he's a contender.

Mind you I'm surprised that they didn't claim MacKenzie even with his English upbringing.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Yes I see your point but the top 5, no do not think so. As for Ross, with all the help and assistance he had in the old country he was not even a contender. You think he should, fine I just don’t think he should, but in the USA he is highly regarded and perhaps rightly so. But within my top 5, no he does not get my vote.

Melvyn

[Niall Hay]

Niall

Go to jail, do not pass Go, but directly to jail.  Give the guy a chance, he still needs a few more under
his belt to balance out his portfolio. Perhaps one day, who knows. Walk before you ride is a wise way to address these issues IMHO

Melvyn

Sam and Colin over Kidd?

[Melvyn Morrow]

That's a hard one, I will have to think that one through

Melvyn

[Niall C]

Melvyn

I hope you had your tongue firmly in your cheek with that last comment. I sense that Kidd might not be everyones cup of tea but give him credit for actually being a gca. As far as I know Monty and Torrance have only ever put their names to courses. Monty at least seems to be making more of a business out of it but as far as I know Torrance has put his name to very little. Scott MacPherson worked on one of the courses Torrance put his name to at St Andrews Bay so may be able to say how much input he had.

If I was picking the list I would have four certainties;

Old Tom Morris - not because I think his designs necessarily stood the test of time but he did kick the whole thing off and established some sound principles. Very much of his time.

James Braid - quite an easy choice. Very solid without being flashy.

MacKenzie - I'll claim him as Scottish with two Scottish parents even though he was brought up in England.

Donald Ross - the list of course he has his name to is such that you can't leave him out.

That leaves the final spot. Kidd is a contender but then so are a lot of ODG's of which probably Willie Fernie would be the guy I'd pick.

Niall

[John Chilver-Stainer]

If you want a few names that would make the list of scottish designers I suggest that you go no further than the american historian Tom MacWood's  article at:
 "In my Opinion" The Early Architects: Beyond Old Tom.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/

[Niall Hay]

If you want a few names that would make the list of scottish designers I suggest that you go no further than the american historian Tom MacWood's  article at:
 "In my Opinion" The Early Architects: Beyond Old Tom.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/

That essay by Tom MacWood is awesome.  Also that initial painting of the Postage Stamp is unlike any I’ve ever seen.

[Niall Hay]

That's a hard one, I will have to think that one through

Melvyn

David’s course list is pretty impressive.  Does Sam or Colin have a Bandon, Nanea, Queenwood or even a Mach Dunes?

Portfolio

In Play

The Castle Course - St. Andrews, Scotland
TPC San Francisco Bay - California, USA
Tetherow - Oregon, USA
Bandon Dunes - Oregon, USA
Powerscourt - County Wicklow, Ireland
Nanea - Hawaii, USA
Queenwood - Surrey, England
Fancourt - South Africa
Machrihanish Dunes - Scotland
Huntsman Springs - Idaho, USA

In Construction

Taghazout Beach Resort - Morocco
gWest - Scotland
Fiji (private island)

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Sorry, I just do not rate Ross, nor the Foulis Brothers.

I would go with Allan Robertson, Old Tom, Willie Fernie, Simpson, Charlie Hunter then Sutherland and Campbell, to cut that down I suspect Campbell and Sutherland would be the first two out.

To be the best does not always equate into producing the most.

As for your comment about Old Tom kicking things off, sorry you are wrong in truth it was Allan, he produced with Tom Morris his assistant the first of what we call designed courses. As for Old Tom's courses standing the test of time much must been laid with James Braid plans as many of his modifications of the earlier courses left many Old Tom Holes, Greens and Fairways more or less
intact. His opinion was if the Holes is a good one, leave it.

If the 19th Century designs where limited why did templates ever get exported in the later years of 19th &  20th Century. In fact they still to this day, we are using templates that owe their designs to the 19th Century.

Melvyn


Niall  David's list includes The Castle Courses at St Andrews, that alone drops him well down my list for that gherkin of a course or should I have called it Disneyland Roller Coaster or even Helter Skelter.

[James Boon]

Melvyn,

So we can't list courses but we can list architects?  Sorry, I'm pulling your leg but couldn't resist that one 

Surely Willie Park Jnr. should get a mention in the top 5 Scottish architects?

Cheers,

James

[David Kelly]

So they name Sam Torrance one of the top 5 Scottish golf architects while ignoring guys like Ross, Bendelow, Alex Findlay & Philip Mackenzie Ross, and the best they can come up with to tout his resume is, "The 2002 Ryder Cup-winning captain has already co-produced the marvellous Torrance Course at the St Andrews Bay Resort." That's some pretty weak tea.

[Mike_Clayton]

Sam knew so much about the Torrance course that when we played there he drove over the stone fence at the 4th hole and asked his caddy for another ball. He didn't know it wasn't out of bounds.

[Melvyn Morrow]

James you hit it on the head, I tend not to like listings or rating courses because it depends upon my mood and reason for a round which can translate into enjoyment or not. So listing for me is like a weathervane.

Now the whole point of leaving Park Jr off being the old Morris/Park thing. – no not really I had him on the list under reserve – which goes to show how rating/listing actually mean very little. Many would have him up in the to 5 - 7 but he was 9th on my list.   

They all produced some rather special courses and some wonderful Holes, as I said many still copied today remembering that the originals were designed for gutty/hickory golf. States a lot about their understanding of GCA and Golf

Melvyn

[Marty Bonnar]

All,
this is a TOURISM ORGANISATION website. Ill-informed numptyism at best. The whole piece smacks of speedy journalism of the worst kind. Pay it no heed, snigger up your sleeve and move on.
It also doesn't say THE 5, only 5. Oh, how I love a nitpick...
F.

[David Kelly]

All,
this is a TOURISM ORGANISATION website. Ill-informed numptyism at best. The whole piece smacks of speedy journalism of the worst kind. Pay it no heed, snigger up your sleeve and move on.
It also doesn't say THE 5, only 5. Oh, how I love a nitpick...
F.

You need to pick finer nits.  If it said 5 Top you'd be correct but it says Top 5.  In this case leaving out the definite article does not change the meaning of the sentence.

[Marty Bonnar]

Kee-rist,
and I thought I was king of the pick-nitters.
 
DFB.

[Colin Macqueen]

Marty, Laughing heartily over my breakfast muesli here.

You have to get up earlier than you did to beat David Kelly to the punch. Maybe you should just stick to knitting or picking berries!

Cheers Colin

[Marty Bonnar]

Breakfast at 12?
Lazy git...
or have i failed at the time zone stuff now too?
Kelly - must be a feckin irishman. we know how carnapcious (sp?) that lot can be!
Anyhey, scottish malt and german beer. great combo!!!
Hic!
MB.

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