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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is TCP Sawgrass a great golf course?  Is it Mr. Dye's greatest work?
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I guess it depends on the definition of 'great'.  I sure wouldn't want to play there every day.  This could be one of the world's greatest tournament golf courses, but it would fail as a club's course - too difficult, too frustrating, pace of play would be too slow.

It may well be Dye's greatest work.  The closing holes are magical in their shot values and drama-inducing risks.

What do you think?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is TCP Sawgrass a great golf course?  Is it Mr. Dye's greatest work?
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I guess it depends on the definition of 'great'.  I sure wouldn't want to play there every day.  This could be one of the world's greatest tournament golf courses, but it would fail as a club's course - too difficult, too frustrating, pace of play would be too slow.

It may well be Dye's greatest work.  The closing holes are magical in their shot values and drama-inducing risks.

What do you think?


I need to get back there-it's been 29 years since I played it.
I thought it very severe then, but it's been softened and I worked at Long Cove after that so I may have some Dye skills now ;D.
The players seem to like it.
It's hard to say whay Dye's "greatest work" is as he built on many difficult sites.
It's certainly not my favorite course of his.

On a related note, does anyone notice the divots strewn everywhere all over the fairways.
It's not one or two,but dozens on every hole-seems like they certainly could impact play and they look like shi ;)e.
Now I understand bermuda divots aren't replaced, but couldn't the players/caddies/someone pick them up and discard them?
Or is my hi def TV just working really well ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would say yes it is a GREAT golf course, I agree its a great tournament course and would be too tough for general membership play but most championship golf courses are a bit like that. It probably is getting close to his best work but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
There are few golf courses that please as much as TPC Sawgrass.  When I first played it (1982-3) it was by an order of magnitude the most challenging and interesting course I had ever played (and at that time I had already played all the courses on the British Open rota, plus Dornoch 100+ times, plus Pebble Beach and Spyglass (each at least 10 times, and Harbourtown, all the great Irish courses except Portrush, San Francisco, etc.).  I was then (and always have been) a hack, but a well-travelled hack at least....

Later in my life (1987-1990) I lived in Ponte Vedra and played TPC-S 3-5 times a year.  Even though the course had been significantly softened from the "hit and stop a 5-iron on the hood of a 1958 Buick" days, the course never disappointed me, particularly when I shot 70 from the middle tees....) :o.   Why?:

1.  It is a course of amazing variety--lengths, directions, challenges, even elevations--even though it was fashioned from the dredgings of a sea level swamp.
2.  The greens are subtle rather than radical (unlike the most pretentious of modern courses)
3.  The bunkering is restrained and never truly penal (if you get in you can get out, and get out for better or worse based on your risk/reward predilection and/or skill
4.  17 is a stroke of design genius, which through its penultimate placement in the routing makes 12 at Augusta (yawn.....) look like chopped liver (viz. The Masters 2012).

If you could replace Finchem with a real person and dynamite the new clubhouse, the course's tournament could easily be the 5th major (or 4th, if we can ever get rid of the PGA....).  Until then, just watch and enjoy.

Rich
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 07:47:32 AM by Rich Goodale »
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
I also think TPC Sawgrass is great... for two main reasons, in particular.

To put a golf course on that site was a major feat in engineering, to begin with. Secondly, when you consider each hole was created from a 'blank canvas' - the option to do whatever, not unlike Fazio at Shadow Creek for example - you must give Mr. Dye's intelligence and creativity an A++. 
jeffmingay.com

Bill McKinley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would say No the course is not great.  My opinion of Dye's greatest work would be either Honors or Ocean Course at Kiawah
2016 Highlights:  Streamsong Blue (3/17); Streamsong Red (3/17); Charles River Club (5/16); The Country Club - Brookline (5/17); Myopia Hunt Club (5/17); Fishers Island Club (5/18); Aronomink GC (10/16); Pine Valley GC (10/17); Somerset Hills CC (10/18)

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would say No the course is not great.  My opinion of Dye's greatest work would be either Honors or Ocean Course at Kiawah

IMO, Sawgrass is better than Kiawah.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would like to see a match play event played at Sawgrass.

WW

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes I think it is a great course not withstanding completely too much mounding and endless completely stupid looking and unneeded lakes

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lakes aren't necessarily unneeded.  They were needed to produce material to bring the holes above the water table.  The reason 17 exists like so is because they gutted that pond so much, they only left only a bit where the green was to be, and they (I believe it was AliceDye --someone surely knows the story better than me) got the idea of "hey--why not make an island green?" 

From what I see from TV and the Tiger Woods video game, I would say it is a great course, especially for competitive play.  The angles are great with many holes asking for a cut one shot and a draw the next, and the mental drama and pace of the routing is awesome.  How many holes in golf are inside a guy's head for 17 holes of the round? 

The engineering of the place sounds incredible too.  Dropping a water table on a site close to the ocean? Pretty impressive.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Best driving course I have ever played the angles on the tee shots are a stern challenge where a miss hurts you but is rarely a killer unless it is on #18.

TPC is way better than TOC for me.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
one of my favorite courses - great engineering fete - full of  great holes, many with classic origins - a real test and much FUN top play

after my first trip there, when i got home, I told my wife shew might find me thee if I ever ran away from home

I am  huge fan of Pete Dye
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rihc, Well said in many ways. lol

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
one of my favorite courses - great engineering fete - full of  great holes, many with classic origins - a real test and much FUN top play

after my first trip there, when i got home, I told my wife shew might find me thee if I ever ran away from home

I am  huge fan of Pete Dye

George - this is high praise indeed. Some of the spots that you have to hit into look so small on TV and the limited exposure I have to Dye never set well to my eye when on the course. Saying that, independent of cost I would love to play Sawgrass at some point. At the cost of a couple of rounds though I would most likely choose to fly over to Scotland or Ireland again.

To answer the posited question - yes, I would call it great architecture to hold a tour event on. Does this make it great architecture in some holistic sense for all players, of course not. Where equipment has taken the top end I am not sure if the two can ever be compatible on something other than a windy links site at this point.