[Howard Riefs]

Smells like Far Hills had its hand in this...

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/05/06/2133773/chambers-bay-superintendent-resigns.html?story_link=email_msg

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/5/8/chambers-bay-super-resigns.html

[Richard Choi]

I can't say I am really surprised.

From the beginning they should have hired someone with extensive experience working with fescue for Chambers Bay. Conditioning (especially the greens) have been a big issue at Chambers from the opening day. Hate to see one of the first employee hired at CB go, but they need help.

[Sean Leary]

Rich,

Haven't been down yet this year. Are the greens bad again?

[Richard Choi]

I don't think it is a question of if they are worse than before, it is just that they never got great.

The fact that they had to close down several holes and implement temp greens (which probably needed to happen even without the green contour changes) probably did not help his cause.

[Sean Leary]

I don't think it is a question of if they are worse than before, it is just that they never got great.

The fact that they had to close down several holes and implement temp greens (which probably needed to happen even without the green contour changes) probably did not help his cause.

Last time I played they didn't look great but they putted great. I'm not sure I have ever seen Bandon's greens look good either.

[Tom_Doak]

From the beginning they should have hired someone with extensive experience working with fescue for Chambers Bay. Conditioning (especially the greens) have been a big issue at Chambers from the opening day. Hate to see one of the first employee hired at CB go, but they need help.

Richard:

Who would that be, exactly?  The only guys with extensive experience working with fescue greens in America are the guys in Bandon and Dave Hensley at Ballyneal, and I would personally chip in cash to have them stay there instead of going up to Chambers Bay.

[Garland Bayley]

From the beginning they should have hired someone with extensive experience working with fescue for Chambers Bay. Conditioning (especially the greens) have been a big issue at Chambers from the opening day. Hate to see one of the first employee hired at CB go, but they need help.

Richard:

Who would that be, exactly?  The only guys with extensive experience working with fescue greens in America are the guys in Bandon and Dave Hensley at Ballyneal, and I would personally chip in cash to have them stay there instead of going up to Chambers Bay.

Guess I now know who to recommend to Chambers Bay.

[Richard Choi]

I would think if you cannot poach those guys, you could try to get their right-hand man. You could also try to hire somebody from Scotland or Australia, but that probably would be more risky.

Best of luck to the interim super, Josh Lewis. It says he worked at Bandon, but I don't know how extensive his stay was. Hope he can do better.

[William_G]

Matt Allen the GM @ Chambers Bay worked at Bandon for Kemper Sports before taking this job.

He is well connected and will surely figure this out unless the USGA is too overbearing.

I hope the course is in decent shape when the Oregon Ducks visit Seattle to play the Cougs in September.

thanks

[Stewart Naugler]

Honestly, I would call Trey Rogers, Tom Doak, Dan Lucas, and a few other professionals that have actual experience with fescue to see if it can truly work in that environment. We all know of situations where fescue has proven to be an ideal playing surface (Kingsley) but you need the right climate/management (Low N, Low traffic, Proper water management, etc). If playing conditions have been less than ideal, I wouldn't blame the superintendent without knowing all the facts. Has there been a U.S. Open played on a fairly new 100 percent fescue course? No. So this is new territory for all parties involved and I'm sure the superintendent did the best job he could with what he was given. In the few major championships I've been involved with the governing body made many, if not all, of the agronomic decisions.

[Ben Sims]

Stu,

Low traffic huh?  I guess Jeff Sutherland is screwed then!  There is surely a hugh traffic load at Bandon, and they do have some poa issues, but I would argue that they are doing very well with their fescue.  Dave is also working miracles at B'Neal.  His work to recover the surface after a hail storm last summer was very, VERY impressive.  

To be honest, I'm surprised that no one from Bandon has been wooed northward to the Tacoma area yet.  University Place is pretty nice, as is the now gentrified north Tacoma area.  

[Stewart Naugler]

No, he's not screwed but preparing and maintaining US Open playing surfaces is much different than how they maintain Bandon for every day resort guest. I learned this up close by seeing Pebble transform throughout the year of the 2010 U.S Open. Traffic is a BIG concern and like I said low N/low H20 is critical in keeping poa annua from encroaching. Plus those low inputs are also critical in controlling thatch which leads to disease and soft playing surfaces.

It's a completely different animal.  

[Ben Sims]

No, he's not screwed but preparing and maintaining US Open playing surfaces is much different than how they maintain Bandon for every day resort guest. I learned this up close by seeing Pebble transform throughout the year of the 2010 U.S Open. Traffic is a BIG concern and like I said low N/low H20 is critical in keeping poa annua from encroaching. Plus those low inputs are also critical in controlling thatch which leads to disease and soft playing surfaces.

It's a completely different animal.  

Stu,

I think you've already made the same folly that the USGA may make.  You're looking at Chambers' prep the same way you would Pebble or Olympic.  Let's be honest here, if the USGA wasn't thinking about agronomics when they chose Chambers Bay, they're about the get a lesson for the next 3 years.  You can't choose a wall-to-wall fescue golf course and think you're getting a run of the mill US Open condition.  

So in effect, this isn't about the US Open.  This is about Chambers Bay.  So I'll take your quote above, "...but preparing and maintaining US Open playing surfaces is much different than how they maintain Bandon for every day resort guest" and change it to "but preparing a fescue playing surface is much different than how they maintain a west coast poa for US Open play"

[JC Urbina]

Richard,

I had the chance to work with Josh Lewis at Pasatiempo before he left to take the Chambers Bay job.  I like his attitude and energy level.  I wish him well and I am sure he can call on the Bandon group if he thought he needed it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

When the USGA selected CB to host the US Open, they knew the grass type. It would seem there was some sort of "a US Open that looks a bit like The British Open" feeling within the USGA.

It is crazy to think you would prepare a fescue surface similar to bent, poa, or bermuda.  With the more common grasses, over management prior so you can lean and dry out during is the common approach to major tourney prep. Isn’t the allure of fescue the fact that you really only have to move the bar a little bit for prep. Moreover, usually isn’t that prep mostly just limiting play in the months prior?

I played Bandon in the fall and the turf there, especially at BT and OM, could easily host a major tournament, especially with a little down time and the opportunity to really dry it out for one week. The fwys at OM were ideal, but probably could be cut a little tighter if they want fwys stimping at 8-9. The greens at BT were plenty fast, but with some extra rolling could be wicked fast. Last year Davis was bragging about greens rolling 13-14, if he's expecting that at CB, then there is some sort of disconnect between the selection process and the set up process.

[Stewart Naugler]

That's the thing, you're looking at things rationally but the USGA doesn't. Regardless of grass type, the USGA will push the fescue at Chambers Bay farther than you can imagine. So leading up to the event the turf stand needs to be somewhat dense but more importantly extremely healthy. And from what I've heard the fescue at Chambers hasn't been that way from the day the course opened. Now I understand that fescue isn't nearly as dense, finer leaf blades, and the lower mowing heights basically cut off the way the plant produces new shoots. Like I said, fescue's a completely different animal than bent/poa but that's not going to stop the USGA from pushing just as hard as they do at Pebble, Olympic, etc. So they need optimal growing conditions leading up to the tournament or it's going to be a long week for the grounds staff. Meaning minimal traffic and the perfect mix of nutrients, water, cultural practices, etc.

Now I agree that the USGA is starting to find out that fescue is a completely different animal. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see bent grass greens at Chambers Bay within the next year or so. Obviously things aren't progressing as well as they would have liked.

Still, the way they maintain the fescue for every day play will be completely different than how they maintain it leading up to the Open. I would bet on them not allowing carts for several months leading up to the tournament week.

If they could just dry things out the superintendent wouldn't be resigning. The surface not only needs to be fast but it also needs to be somewhat true.

-Stu not Sean

[Stewart Naugler]

I do think you really need to work a US Open to truly understand how hard the USGA pushes the playing surfaces. The week before the Open at Pebble the course looked like Augusta. Not only was it in the best condition I've ever seen a golf course, it also played amazingly fast and firm. I set up the course with the USGA the following week and I've never seen turfgrass pushed so hard in my life. I have several pictures but I'm not sure how the poa survived that week. Pebble is lucky to have one of the best superintendents in the business. After those 2 weeks I worked my normal hours at Cypress, where I would drive past Pebble on the way to work. They needled tined basically everything and watered deeply the weeks that followed the tournament. It took several weeks before the course looked right again and that's under perfect growing conditions.

On a side note- I've also heard great things about Josh Lewis!

[Joe Stansell]

I've played Chambers Bay about a half dozen times since January, including a round yesterday. I've "seen" and "heard" a lot of things during that time. So I can share this:

1. The greens are in disappointing condition, overall. There's several greens where bare spots have really become a problem -- like 3, 6, 15, and 16. It's mostly from where golfers have worn a path entering or leaving the green.

2.  In fact, the wear was so bad on hole 10 that they re-sodded the northern edge and then built a new path into the northern dune, that takes golfers completely around the green. The path really "diminishes" the charm of the hole. But I see the need for it.

3.  I don't think its just me, but I find the greens to be really, really inconsistent -- some are significantly slower than others. This is especially true for the first green, which only recently re-opened. It is easily twice as slow as the others. This means that second putts are often long putts because players either come up way short or go way long on their first. Chambers Bay is the land of three putts.

4.  The USGA is on site everyday, or practically everyday. I'm reading between the lines here, but I suspect that that fact alone would make for a difficult working environment for anyone in charge of maintaining the course.

5.  It's the time of the year when the USGA is forcing Chambers Bay to grow out the rough, as a test for how much time it will take the USGA to achieve a really, really deep rough for the U.S. Open. I think its only been a few weeks since the last mowing, but the rough is already truly ridiculous, and there's another six weeks to go before they'll mow it. I predict mostly 6 hour rounds through mid-June.

6.  The folks at Chambers Bay really like what Josh Lewis has done so far. They seem to think that things are headed in the right direction, on account of the work he has done. I think he deserves some time to get up to speed before anyone throws in the towel on fescue greens.

And SNaugler, just so you're aware, Chambers Bay doesn't allow carts. Never has. It's walking only. So I don't think banning carts for a few months in advance of the U.S. Open is much of a worry. 

[jeffwarne]

I do think you really need to work a US Open to truly understand how hard the USGA pushes the playing surfaces. The week before the Open at Pebble the course looked like Augusta. Not only was it in the best condition I've ever seen a golf course, it also played amazingly fast and firm. I set up the course with the USGA the following week and I've never seen turfgrass pushed so hard in my life. I have several pictures but I'm not sure how the poa survived that week. Pebble is lucky to have one of the best superintendents in the business. After those 2 weeks I worked my normal hours at Cypress, where I would drive past Pebble on the way to work. They needled tined basically everything and watered deeply the weeks that followed the tournament. It took several weeks before the course looked right again and that's under perfect growing conditions.

SNaugler.
You were there, so I'll defer to your experience and expertise.
The greens appeared very bumpy and virtually plinkolike on the weekend.(making anything outside 3 feet appeared to be a random event)
With all the preparation that went in, is that needed for a worthy outcome/champion?
and if the greens had been a foot slower, a hair less rock hard, and puttable, would the champion have been less worthy?

Do we need to go back and discredit US Champions of previous decades because some of them finished on greens that were stimping(or would that be "bimping" )
at a lower rate?

Seems like someone's justifying their existence , rather than(but under the cover of) determining more worthy champions

[Garland Bayley]

No, he's not screwed but preparing and maintaining US Open playing surfaces is much different than how they maintain Bandon for every day resort guest. I learned this up close by seeing Pebble transform throughout the year of the 2010 U.S Open. Traffic is a BIG concern and like I said low N/low H20 is critical in keeping poa annua from encroaching. Plus those low inputs are also critical in controlling thatch which leads to disease and soft playing surfaces.

It's a completely different animal.  

You realize of course that Chambers Bay was built next to the sewage treatment plant, so it has treated sewage available as a water supply for irrigation, don't you?

[Michael Dugger]

My guess is he just wasn't into the meddling, the input, the attention, the opinions and the pressure any longer.

I am inclined to think some of these issues with "wear" around the collars and what not are design related, not maintenance.

They already blew up #4. Then this issue Joe relates about #10.

[Matthew Essig]

As bad as the greens are on a regular basis, the greens were beautiful at the us am. The entire course was great. The fairways were tighter than I thought it was possible to cut fescue, and the greens ran very fast and relatively smooth. As I had the jobs of carrying the _____ (I am blanking on the name; the heavy metal sign with the match status on it) and the device that sends the scores to the scoring center, I was able to walk with the players, so I know what the course was like that week. If the USGA can set it up the same way they did at the us am, the open will be a success.

[Joe Stansell]

Clearly, Matthew, the goal would be to get the course in a shape similar to the U.S. Amateur -- or at least that would be MY goal, if I were in charge. It played beautifully.

The problem is that the U.S. Open is in June, not in August, and therefore the course is likely to be much greener and slower coming out of our wetter months. While I see a lot of evidence that the USGA is trying to figure out how to grow deep rough this time of year, I see NO evidence that the USGA is trying to figure out how to create firm and fast conditions this time of year.

[Howard Riefs]

As I had the jobs of carrying the _____ (I am blanking on the name; the heavy metal sign with the match status on it)

A "standard." In golf parlance, you served as a "standard bearer."

Very cool at the US Am.

[Jerry Kluger]

I believe that the goal of the USGA is to make sure that the greens are really firm for the Open and that is where the problem was last year at Congressional.  They had dried out the greens and when I saw them on Tuesday some of they were really stressed but they were very firm.  Then came the rains and softened them up which made them much easier for the top players.  The green speeds weren't really an issue to the players.  My point is that the most critical area will be green firmness and they should be able to dry out the greens although Seattle does have a reputation of being very wet which could be difficult to deal with.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()