Practice holes at Shinnecock

[Jeff_Lewis]

There are several interesting looking greens across the road from the tenth at Shinnecock. It is some sort of short course practice area. Does anybody know if these greens are remnants of the original golf course?

[bakerg]

I was told that these were indeed older holes that were not incorporated into the new routing.  The members use them as a practice area for chipping and putting.  Also, where the college sits across the street you can still kind of make out where some of the old tee boxes and greens used to be before the school was there.  

[Jeff_Lewis]

I'll take a look.  Thanks a lot.

[bakerg]

If you can, ask for Raymond Floyd's regular caddie out there.  He is incredible at getting you around the course and he knows all the history.  I can't remember his name for the life of me but just a great guy.  

[TEPaul]

Those old greens could be vestiges of the old holes that preceded the present day William Flynn Shinnecock built around 1930. Those holes are likely remnants and vestiges from the original Willie Dunn/Willie Davis course and then the second course of MacDonald and Raynor. Just the other day we were hunting for the old Biarritz green behind the maintenance building and just to the east of it but couldn't see much of anything.

When Flynn was contracted to come in and design and build the present day Shinnecock he offered the club a plan for three nines--orange, red and yellow! Flynn did various iterations of three nines as Lucien Ting bought additional land to the east of the clubhouse on what's now #10, 11, 12, 13. Flynn actually had a couple of holes routed into what's now the residential area to the northeast beyond the 12th green and beyond the 14th green and to the right of the 15th hole. Ting decided not to buy that land.

But the first two courses of Dunn/Davis and MacD/Raynor were primarily to the south below the clubhouse toward and over what's now rte 27 and the RR tracks. The primary reason Ting bought the additional land and Flynn came in to build the new course is the club was about to lose some of that land to the new Rte 27.

So those holes are vestiges and remnants of the older Shinnecock courses that preceded the present one and also remnants of the third nine that Flynn started to redesign but never actually completed the design and/or construction of. A couple of years ago those greens you can see to the right of the driveway were rejuvenated as practice holes.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thanks very much Tom.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are you sure that those holes aren't the Southhampton Golf course ?

I had understood that the old holes are where the current practice range is, and down by RT 27 and the Railroad tracks, not behind the 10th green.

[TEPaul]

"Are you sure that those holes aren't the Southhampton Golf course ?"

Pat:

If those greens to the right of Shinnecock's driveway are on Southhampton G.C.'s land I think Shinnecock is going to be quite surprised. I think Southhamtpon G.C. will be too.

I don't believe I said they were behind #10 green--they're to the South of #10 fairway (between that and rte 27).

The original Dunn/Davis holes and routing are long gone, I'm sure. The vestiges of old greens would be from the Macdonald/ Raynor course, I believe (but I'll look at their placement again when I go through there). We have the routing of the old Macd/Raynor course and Flynn used some of those holes in a partial routing for a third nine that wasn't built.

Originally the Dunn/Davis course (First Shinnecock course) was basically to the south of the clubhouse and a few holes were actually to the south of the RR tracks. MacD/Raynor redid that course in the teens (the second Shinnecock course) and routed holes differently. Abouit the first 11 holes of the Macd/Raynor course were below the clubhouse (south) except #1, and a part of #2. #12 was a par 5 whose green is the present #2 green. #13 was essentially the same as the present #3 and #14 is the redan (#7) that's probably essentially the same except the bunkering was different. MacD/Raynor appear to have had sort of long "coffin" bunkering on both sides of the redan somewhat like the greenside Biarritz bunkering. And #18 on the MacD/Raynor course is basically what is #9 today.

[johnnyjumpstart]

I think you fellas may be describing the short game practice area which I believe Tom Doak built at the club about 3-4 years ago. Maybe Tom can enlighten us? johnny

[johnnyjumpstart]

After I hit the SEND button I began to think it may have been Tom Fazio who built the new short game paractice area which indeed is to the right of the 1oth hole. johnny

[Gene Greco]

The new short game area is to the west of the tenth tee back across Tuckahoe road.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Took a look at Bill Quirin's America's Linksland and he has a drawing of the 1915 version of the golf course. There were five greens (1,2,4,5,13) between the two roads where the practice area now resides, so they may well be those greens.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, It looks like we were in the area where the Biarritz green once was, although jdging from that area we saw a week ago today, it looks as if it has now been completely eliminated.

Here is a blow-up of that area, and the area of the practice holes.

[Tom_Doak]

Contrary to one report above, I did not do any of the work on the holes on Shinnecock's "family course."  They were done in-house by Peter Smith and his crew.  I think a couple of the greens were remnants and the rest are new, although they hardly did any grading work at all ... all we did was provide some information on grassing them with fescue.

However, it is likely that those holes are going to get torn up for "facilities" at the US Open next year, and the club will get a stipend from the USGA for putting them back in even better shape ... which we may be involved with.  If so, I'd appreciate someone (Tommy) from sending me the old photos and routings so I can determine whether there is something worth "restoring".

The Biarritz green was still there the last time I looked, but I haven't gone down there for five years, so it's possible they tore it up.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,

The whole reason I asked Tom to go in there was because you did in fact tell me that it was still there. Unfortunately, it looks as if the current Superintendents trailer is now resting on at least part of it.

[TEPaul]

The Biarritz does not appear to be there any longer. I think Tommy is probably right that some trailer appears to be sitting on the front of it and the remainder of it appears to be graded over or dumped on. Tommy and I drove in there looking for it last week and really couldn't see anything.

That green just to the north of it with the horseshoe bunkering around it is the old par 3 #3  from the second course (MacD/Raynor) and the maintenance building now sits on it.

But just this morning on my way out of Southampton I drove through Shinnecock, got to the light at Rte #27 and then turned around and drove down the old St Andrews Rd to the east between the present 10th hole and the remnants of some of the old holes and greens (it appears as that dark road just below #10). There appears to be about 5-6 greens in that section below #10 and Rte 27. The only one that I can see that would definitely be from the old Raynor/MacDonald course is directly below (to the south) of the present 10th green (it appears on that aerial above). I got out of the car and looked at it. It's in good shape (restored) and appears to be the 4th from the MacD/Raynor routing. #5 came back to the west and ended just to the east of Tuckahoe road. The tee to the old Biarritz (#6) was on the east side of Tuckahoe just to the west of the 5th green. The Biarritz played across Tuckahoe road to the Biarritz green---the hole measured out (on our Flynn plan) to be about 200 yds.

But there are some other greens in that section now that probably weren't original and one that appears to be a double green--at least it had two flags in it this morning. The old second green to the MacD/Raynor course would probably be just about where Tom Doak build the new putting green below the clubhouse.